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  #1741  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 3:23 PM
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Originally Posted by thewave46 View Post
The great Saskatchewan Nation just yearns to be free of the yoke of Canada, according to Premier Scott Moe.

Clearly, the ROC does not understand their distinctiveness, their culture, their way of life. So vast the differences, so huge the gulf.

Saskatchewan Nation
While the bravado about Saskatchewan nationhood will likely get some chuckles here in Quebec, the truth is also that no one here would give a shit about Saskatchewan managing more stuff on its own.

Whereas for some reason the internal goings-on in Quebec seem to greatly concern more than a few people in Moose Jaw, Goderich or Truro.
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  #1742  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 3:46 PM
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
I haven't taken the time to read through this thread (so much to read, so little time), so forgive me if this is off base, but would it be fair to summarize this situation by the assumption that the French language would not survive in Quebec without this high level of intervention?

This wouldn't likely happen within the lifetime of most forum members, but perhaps over three or four generations would it be fair to assume (if no action were to be taken) that Quebec would be mostly made up of English speakers, as future generations would see less of a reason to hold onto a language that is being used less and less by the world surrounding them?

Or... would French be self-sustaining by those who strongly support their culture, such that it will always have a presence in Quebec? This would be under the assumption that parents would continue to teach the language and culture to their kids, and that there would continue to be support in the school system.

I'm curious about this, as there seems to be some perception that English-speaking Canada is actively trying to rid the country of the French language, but I'm not sure if this is the case. I think the attrition would be more linked to gradual cultural change and indifference, not unlike how very few Nova Scotians speak Gaelic, even though it was the native language of Scottish settlers who comprised a large part of the population many generations ago. There still are efforts to keep the language and culture alive among those who care about it, but it has mostly disappeared from the landscape (for the same reasons, cultural change and indifference). So if French language and culture was left unabated, to fend for itself, would it survive on its own? That seems to be the concern here, unless I'm totally missing the point.

As a non-French speaking (other than 3 years required Junior High French plus another 3 years of elective French classes in high school) ROC person, I would like to see the French culture and language continue in Quebec (and other traditionally French-speaking areas in Canada). Personally, I think the Quebecois culture adds depth to our society, and thus is a benefit even to those who don't understand its intrinsic value (from an ROC perspective, of course).

However, even with the levels of passion expressed in this thread, I can't help but wonder if the enthusiasm to keep up the fight will wane as the older generations pass on, and the younger generations wonder what all the fuss was about. Or not.

Just , which now only exists in digital form anyhow, so value it as such...
These things tend to ebb and flow. I was young then but can still remember how all things Québécois (language, culture, nationalism) were in the doldrums in the mid-1980s.

Then the 1990s happened.

There will be ups and downs but I don't see the language issue (either in Quebec or in Canada) going away for good in any of our lifetimes.

(Oh and BTW the debate on here isn't very passionate at all. The really passionate discussions on this are going on in other forums, generally in French of course!)
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  #1743  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 3:52 PM
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Originally Posted by thewave46 View Post
The great Saskatchewan Nation just yearns to be free of the yoke of Canada, according to Premier Scott Moe.

Clearly, the ROC does not understand their distinctiveness, their culture, their way of life. So vast the differences, so huge the gulf.

Saskatchewan Nation
A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian, entitled to equal treatment and autonomy regardless of province, right?


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(Oh and BTW the debate on here isn't very passionate at all...)
Posting 1/3rd of the 1700 posts here is passionate to most people lol
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  #1744  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 5:44 PM
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Originally Posted by dleung View Post

Posting 1/3rd of the 1700 posts here is passionate to most people lol
Passion is mostly about tone, is it not?

(In any event, if not for a few of us on here, this thread would be all ranting about the Fascist Frenchies.)
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  #1745  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 6:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
While the bravado about Saskatchewan nationhood will likely get some chuckles here in Quebec, the truth is also that no one here would give a shit about Saskatchewan managing more stuff on its own.

Whereas for some reason the internal goings-on in Quebec seem to greatly concern more than a few people in Moose Jaw, Goderich or Truro.
What about that time when Francois Legault stuck his nose into Ontario provincial affairs, asking Doug Ford to reconsider canceling the French university in Toronto?

In contrast, an NDP-led motion passed in the Ontario legislature asking Doug Ford to confront Legault about Bill 21, but Ford refused.
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  #1746  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 7:01 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
What about that time when Francois Legault stuck his nose into Ontario provincial affairs, asking Doug Ford to reconsider canceling the French university in Toronto?

In contrast, an NDP-led motion passed in the Ontario legislature asking Doug Ford to confront Legault about Bill 21, but Ford refused.
I admit that there has been more attention from Quebec of late (the U of Ottawa n-word controversy is another example) but it's a very recent phenomenon, and I'd say it's a bit of reaction to having everything in Quebec does constantly scrutinized under the ROC's microscope, for decades.

Is it a welcome change? I dunno. But when I was younger living in the ROC, Quebec was always slammed for being indifferent to goings-on the rest of the country. (And at the time I was among those who were critical of this insularity.)

And while it's true what you said about Doug Ford, not sure Bill 21 is a good example as many (most?) big city mayors in the ROC have pledged millions of their taxpayer dollars to fight a law that was passed in another province.

I'll still stand by my claim that Quebec is way more "live and let live" when it comes to the other provinces than vice-versa.
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  #1747  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 7:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I'll still stand by my claim that Quebec is way more "live and let live" when it comes to the other provinces than vice-versa.
Quebec maintains an "office" in Moncton (in the same building as the French consulate).

It's function is liason with the Acadian community in NB. Quebec actually helps to fund some Acadian cultural and political activities, and some legal challenges. It is almost an internal consulate within the federation.

Is this ligation from Quebec liasing with the Acadians or "meddling" in NB affairs. Hmmmmm...........
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  #1748  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 7:13 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
We really have different standards for what constitutes being an asshole, because if you happened to be in Saguenay, and events forced you to apply for a passport right then and there, and one of the booths had a sign bragging it offers service in your native language (English), and you had the curiosity to go and test it (because why not), I would never even think of calling you an asshole for that; in fact I'd find your behavior completely reasonable.

And if it turned out the local Saguenayian manning that particular counter spoke no English, you'd probably echo my sentiments in thinking that sign is pretty much false advertising and should be removed. Again, I fail to see the assholish part in that.

I echo someone123's general view: if you don't offer it, then don't brag that you offer it.

It wouldn't be outrageous for it to be impossible to apply for a passport in English in Saguenay. If you're in Saguenay in the first place, you probably can manage enough French to pull that off; if not then just wait till you're back home and apply there. Similarly, it's okay to require English of someone who's obviously traveling back from Michigan. I would have been totally fine with all the lines offering English-only service. It's Ontario, after all.
You know English. Why test the poor clown at the border crossing by pretending not to know it? That's being an ass.

Just like I would be an ass demanding to be served in English at the passport counter in Saguenay, watching them squirm.. when I am bilingual.

I guess that can be considered fun for some people..
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  #1749  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 7:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Was it as big an adjustment as someone moving from Kitchener to St. John's?
There's the language vs. the content. You can imagine 2 hypothetical languages that have 0 overlap in sounds/words but with a one-to-one mapping and no underlying content differences. In the real world they're never completely separable.

I wouldn't deny that there is an adjustment if you need to move to Quebec but I think people underestimate the importance of the other stuff, which often flies under the radar until it doesn't. And often we implicitly expect it even though it doesn't come up much. The Atlantic vs. Albertan responses to covid for example were pretty different. If you were to group the provinces, Alberta was perhaps more of an outlier than Quebec. This reminds me of that "culture iceberg" that has things like clothing above the waterline and values below. We can flip this around to some degree with Quebec too; a lot of the below the waterline stuff is pretty similar between say Ontario and Quebec.

Some parts of Canada have a much stronger voice nationally than others. Quebec and Alberta being 2 that we always hear about. Alberta is louder in national politics than BC but BC has more people. We almost never hear about Nunavut but it is probably the most distinct.
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  #1750  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 7:43 PM
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There's the language vs. the content. You can imagine 2 hypothetical languages that have 0 overlap in sounds/words but with a one-to-one mapping and no underlying content differences. In the real world they're never completely separable.

I wouldn't deny that there is an adjustment if you need to move to Quebec but I think people underestimate the importance of the other stuff, which often flies under the radar until it doesn't. And often we implicitly expect it even though it doesn't come up much. The Atlantic vs. Albertan responses to covid for example were pretty different. If you were to group the provinces, Alberta was perhaps more of an outlier than Quebec. This reminds me of that "culture iceberg" that has things like clothing above the waterline and values below. We can flip this around to some degree with Quebec too; a lot of the below the waterline stuff is pretty similar between say Ontario and Quebec.
.
Quebec has some pretty big differences within it too. Montreal obviously but even within the more homogenous regions Val-d'Or is different from Gaspé, and Chicoutimi isn't the same as Sherbrooke.

The difference between Chibougamau-Chapais and the Îles-de-la-Madeleine isn't really "lesser" than between some random place in Western Canada and St. John's.

The overarching cultural cues are mostly the same or at least familiar, and people from either area will get almost all of the other's jokes. Any random person doing work in the same field should be fairly plug-and-play in an employment setting.
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  #1751  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 7:48 PM
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I would guess that in a lot of ways there's more similarity between a fishing village in Quebec and one in Newfoundland than between the Quebec village and inner city Montreal. You can slice and dice it in a lot of different ways. If you talk to the PQ folks it is all about language and national historical narrative and if you talk to some other groups it's all about race or some other dimension.

One big modern trend is the globally-connected elite distributed in many locations that's pretty homogenous vs. the disconnected rural areas that have been left behind. This is driving some of Quebec's frustrations since Montreal's been a part of that for a long time. But it exists in English and in French.
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  #1752  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 7:49 PM
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We almost never hear about Nunavut but it is probably the most distinct.
Well sure any Indigenous region that is fairly self-contained and has retained its language and cultural practices to some degree would win this.

We don't hear about Nunavut because it's so lightly populated, with fewer people than many neighbourhoods in Montreal or Toronto.
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  #1753  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 7:51 PM
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In contrast, an NDP-led motion passed in the Ontario legislature asking Doug Ford to confront Legault about Bill 21, but Ford refused.
Doug Ford isn’t dumb. (Never though I would type that, but here we are).

Picking fights with one’s counterparts in other provinces is foolish when the optics are better suited to fighting the feds. Jean Chretien famously tried to split the Premiers by cutting a deal with everyone except Quebec; Mike Harris decided that being allies with Lucien Bouchard was a better deal. Smart move.

All the easier when one’s counterparts are more-or-less on the same page ideologically. I don’t get the sense of a chasm between Doug and Legault, nor any huge upside to him by being in a provincial spat.
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  #1754  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 7:58 PM
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We don't hear about Nunavut because it's so lightly populated, with fewer people than many neighbourhoods in Montreal or Toronto.
It breaks down the "ROC" narrative and demonstrates that even small populations can be distinct. The country is complicated and a lot of that complexity flies under the radar.

One of the most politically distinct areas in Canada is around the Gulf Islands of BC. IMO coastal BC in general is very different from inland parts of Western Canada, to the point where it makes no sense as a region at the national level. Then again in some important ways, the outlying parts of Canada have interests unaligned with the central parts which include portions of both Quebec and Ontario. Those concerns are more important than say entertainment.

From an Atlantic or Western perspective it's quite common to lump Quebec and Ontario together and it's not far-fetched since it's a corridor that you can drive along in a day and the capital is in the middle of it whereas for us here it's 3 time zones away.

I think economic base is just as important as language. For example, whether your area depends on manufacturing or oil.
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  #1755  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 8:04 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
What about that time when Francois Legault stuck his nose into Ontario provincial affairs, asking Doug Ford to reconsider canceling the French university in Toronto?

In contrast, an NDP-led motion passed in the Ontario legislature asking Doug Ford to confront Legault about Bill 21, but Ford refused.
Off topic but last I heard the new Toronto university was attracting only a handful of students.
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  #1756  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 8:07 PM
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Originally Posted by harls View Post
You know English. Why test the poor clown at the border crossing by pretending not to know it? That's being an ass.

Just like I would be an ass demanding to be served in English at the passport counter in Saguenay, watching them squirm.. when I am bilingual.

I guess that can be considered fun for some people..
Or simply exercising one’s legal rights.
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  #1757  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 8:18 PM
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Originally Posted by harls View Post
You know English. Why test the poor clown at the border crossing by pretending not to know it? That's being an ass.

Just like I would be an ass demanding to be served in English at the passport counter in Saguenay, watching them squirm.. when I am bilingual.

I guess that can be considered fun for some people..
like that guy that constantly sues Air Canada because he wasn't served a 7Up in French.

Quote:
His first high-profile language rights case, a complaint regarding English-only drink service on an Air Canada flight, reached the Supreme Court of Canada in 2014.

From 2017 through 2019, Thibodeau made 253 complaints to the official language commissioner. The complaints were filed against airports coast to coast (St. John’s, Halifax, Toronto, Sudbury, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Regina, Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver and Victoria), as well as Air Canada, Via Rail, the federal parliament, the Department of National Defence and the National Capital Commission.
https://multilingual.com/french-cana...inst-airports/
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  #1758  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 8:22 PM
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like that guy that constantly sues Air Canada because he wasn't served a 7Up in French.



https://multilingual.com/french-cana...inst-airports/
I was counting down the minutes until his name came up!
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  #1759  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 8:41 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Or simply exercising one’s legal rights.
If you are unilingual, sure.
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  #1760  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 8:52 PM
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If you are unilingual, sure.
I have somewhat mixed views on this wider question, but one thing I know for sure is that language rights in Canada aren't based on which languages you know or don't know.

And being fluent in one language doesn't cancel out your right to use the other legally-recognized one.
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