Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Ottawa residents will not be big users because the vast majority will have to take a bus to the train. Who is going to carry luggage on a bus to a train, to another train and perhaps to another train again. This market is quite limited.

Unless I have a stupid early flight, I have no particular problem taking transit to the airport under current conditions, and will be even happier under the future arrangement, even with the additional insta-transfer.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

. As I said, if our plans since 2006 were so great, why is transit not booming in this city. It is not just me.
There are thousands of people who have voted by quitting transit. And then we see Line 1 will be closing again for two weeks in July, and without real explanation.

You know that the majority of people leaving transit are people who depend on Line 1 and bus routes right? We cheaped out on those things specifically because we wanted to cater to ex-greenbelt burbs and therefore prioritized quantity over quality.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You know that the majority of people leaving transit are people who depend on Line 1 and bus routes right? We cheaped out on those things specifically because we wanted to cater to ex-greenbelt burbs and therefore prioritized quantity over quality.

I don't think we really know who is leaving transit. I think more accurate is not coming back to transit. The people I know lived in crazy long journeys to work and now just suck up the cost of parking. A colleague actually moved to have a better bus connection and drives anyway. Another colleague used to walk to work and now lives in a god forsaken exurb so has to drive. I thinke the latter is a common occurence with the flight from the city to newly built townhouses we saw during pandemic.

All that to say the transfer from the bus to Line 1 must be unpleastant but not sure if that makes the top 5 most common reasons people aren't using transit. It still beats being stuck on Slater in a bus convoy.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Great to build the airport link, but Ottawa's airport is relatively small. Who is taking the train to the airport? The biggest market will be visitors who are staying downtown. Ottawa residents will not be big users because the vast majority will have to take a bus to the train. Who is going to carry luggage on a bus to a train, to another train and perhaps to another train again. This market is quite limited.

One more transfer is not going to stop the people who would take transit anyway. I have one transfer now to get to the airport. Post-Stage 2, I'll have two. And it won't stop me from taking transit. Still cheaper than taxi or Uber. And that's the real driver for those who take transit. You would know that, if you actually used transit.

[OTSkyline]

I think many more people will use transit to the airport once it opens (but also exponentially more once the east & west extensions open). Agreed people willing to do bus-rail-rail routes will be few and far in between, but the number of people within walking distance to line 1 or 2 (< 1km) once both east/west extensions open should be pretty big.

I think this point relates to general transit usage in general too. A lot of people live near future east/west extensions who probably don't take transit today (because they want to avoid a bus/train route) but will happily take transit once extensions near them open (myself included).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I don't think we really know who is leaving transit. I think more accurate is not coming back to transit. The people I know lived in crazy long journeys to work and now just suck up the cost of parking. A colleague actually moved to have a better bus connection and drives anyway. Another colleague used to walk to work and now lives in a god forsaken exurb so has to drive. I thinke the latter is a common occurence with the flight from the city to newly built townhouses we saw during pandemic.

All that to say the transfer from the bus to Line 1 must be unpleastant but not sure if that makes the top 5 most common reasons people aren't using transit. It still beats being stuck on Slater in a bus convoy.

I'd say the biggest reasons are the unreliability of Line 1 and the reduced bus schedule in combination. Those two things act together to make transit less reliable and result in longer travel times. And when you contrast that against the cost of driving only 2-3 days per week, for a lot of people, it's only marginally more dollars (vs monthly bus pass) or even cheaper, for a substantial gain in quality of life.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

One more transfer is not going to stop the people who would take transit anyway. I have one transfer now to get to the airport. Post-Stage 2, I'll have two. And it won't stop me from taking transit. Still cheaper than taxi or Uber. And that's the real driver for those who take transit. You would know that, if you actually used transit.

I used to take the direct bus from my office in Centretown even for work travel. It was almost as fast as a taxi and why not. I don't do that already with one transfer. But for most people yes I guess you are right at the end of the day one transfer and the limitied number of people really walking distance to a station limits the airport line anyway and those that really want to save money will put up with transfers and prefer rail only transfers to a bus/rail.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I don't think we really know who is leaving transit. I think more accurate is not coming back to transit. The people I know lived in crazy long journeys to work and now just suck up the cost of parking. A colleague actually moved to have a better bus connection and drives anyway. Another colleague used to walk to work and now lives in a god forsaken exurb so has to drive. I thinke the latter is a common occurence with the flight from the city to newly built townhouses we saw during pandemic.

All that to say the transfer from the bus to Line 1 must be unpleastant but not sure if that makes the top 5 most common reasons people aren't using transit. It still beats being stuck on Slater in a bus convoy.

The inner urban areas were the highest ridership areas pre-covid, and it is quite clear that the losses in those areas are directly related to frequency cuts and added transfers to the O-Train which could easily double the length of short trips. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize that when you convert a bus trip that took 15 minutes into one that becomes 30 with a transfer (or even 60 if you miss the now less frequent bus), people aren't going to pay for that service. When walking is faster, able bodied people aren't going to shell out $130 a month so they can take longer to get downtown.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'd say the biggest reasons are the unreliability of Line 1

In the present tense?

[Kitchissippi]

I'm sure we'll see an increase in transit use once Stage 2 is fully completed. Right now the O-Train is a fraction of most people's journeys but once rail makes up a good portion of the average trip it will tip the scales.

One of the big turn-offs I think is the poorly thought out transfer points at Tunney's, Hurdman and Blair. The situation at Tunney's is easily the worst part of my trip experience, I can't wait until that corral is gone. When transfers are more widely distributed across the system it will feel a lot less of a zoo.

[lrt's friend]

The irony of Line 2 Phase 2, at least for those living inside the Greenbelt, with the exception of the two new stations, is that OC will be delivering less service than before the 2020 closure. No additional service on Line 2, and less service on the Southeast Transitway.

I am not getting the attraction of walking 1 km with luggage, to take a train (with 2 transfers) to the airport, which is considerably slower than the bus it replaced. But I guess I am part of a minute minority.

I read with interest the many comments why people gave up on transit. Our transit planners argued (and advertised) that trip times would be at least as fast as prior to the opening of Line 1. It quickly became apparent that this was not the case. How could our planning be so off the mark?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I'm sure we'll see an increase in transit use once Stage 2 is fully completed. Right now the O-Train is a fraction of most people's journeys but once rail makes up a good portion of the average trip it will tip the scales.

One of the big turn-offs I think is the poorly thought out transfer points at Tunney's, Hurdman and Blair. The situation at Tunney's is easily the worst part of my trip experience, I can't wait until that corral is gone. When transfers are more widely distributed across the system it will feel a lot less of a zoo.

For the small number of people who live very near one of the new stations this makes sense but if you live in Kanata or Orleans how does this change much. Currently in Orleans your bus goes onto the transitway until Blair. now it will go directly to various stations or goes to Trim. How does this change anything?

In the souht it's mostly a net loss as a bus that takes you to Hurdman is much better than being shoved onto the infrequent line 2 and then mostly transferring again.

I am just really skeptical the number of people who have much of a choice about transit and who now drive pay will change substatnially when their 1 hour commute by transit becomes 55 minutes (which as I said isn't that many people anyway).

There are a few pockets that will see huge benefit for sure. Westboro and adjacent along that line where bus service is horrible right now will see a surge in ridership but this is a rare exception and not many people in the scheme of things.

[orleans_man]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

For the small number of people who live very near one of the new stations this makes sense but if you live in Kanata or Orleans how does this change much. Currently in Orleans your bus goes onto the transitway until Blair. now it will go directly to various stations or goes to Trim. How does this change anything?

You right in the fact it doesn't change much, at least not in reality (travel time will be unchanged). But, I do think the perception of it "being" closer will have an impact. Also, the transfer situation that existed at Blair station prior to the pandemic was horrendous and turned many people off. (I can't speak to Tunney's - but from what I've heard it was also pretty bad). With stage 2 the transfer situation will be greatly improved and no longer resemble a rock concert mosh pit and the impossible task of making your way through it to get to your bus.

I still get asked by people all the time when I say I take the train: "Really?: What it's like now at Blair?", and I have to tell them it's night and day. There's far fewer people using the transfers at Blair and although it's still somewhat busy, it's not crazy at all. Although, the downside is they have slashed service to Orleans and will soon be slashing it again, but at least it's not crowded

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

For the small number of people who live very near one of the new stations this makes sense but if you live in Kanata or Orleans how does this change much. Currently in Orleans your bus goes onto the transitway until Blair. now it will go directly to various stations or goes to Trim. How does this change anything?

In the souht it's mostly a net loss as a bus that takes you to Hurdman is much better than being shoved onto the infrequent line 2 and then mostly transferring again.

I am just really skeptical the number of people who have much of a choice about transit and who now drive pay will change substatnially when their 1 hour commute by transit becomes 55 minutes (which as I said isn't that many people anyway).

There are a few pockets that will see huge benefit for sure. Westboro and adjacent along that line where bus service is horrible right now will see a surge in ridership but this is a rare exception and not many people in the scheme of things.

It changes things because the proportion of the trip on rail increases. For example for someone from Kanata going to downtown, currently less than a quarter of the trip is on the O-Train which makes the transfer at Tunney's more of a nuisance. When that percentage gets flipped to a much shorter bus ride to Moodie and most of the distance to downtown on the O-train, perceptions are going to be very different.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

It changes things because the proportion of the trip on rail increases. For example for someone from Kanata going to downtown, currently less than a quarter of the trip is on the O-Train which makes the transfer at Tunney's more of a nuisance. When that percentage gets flipped to a much shorter bus ride to Moodie and most of the distance to downtown on the O-train, perceptions are going to be very different.

I don't think more time on the bus vs rail is a nuisance per se. I think the train will not be any quicker from Trim to Blair than a bus using the transitway.

To the west it should be quicker as current transitway there is a mess and each stop adds a lot of time. It will be much less frustrating too.

Perception does matter for sure. It will be a good chance to reset things and get people to try it again. A month free transit and maybe simultanesouly adding a new parking tax or similar could get people to redo the math so to speak. People driving from outside the greenbelt to Centretown is a complete failure. Of course it's harder to get those going to other suburban offices but with 3 days per week public servants we should at least be able to get the centretown commuters back.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I am not getting the attraction of walking 1 km with luggage, to take a train (with 2 transfers) to the airport, which is considerably slower than the bus it replaced. But I guess I am part of a minute minority.

I'm just not sure that this will be as bad as you are thinking. You are right that from downtown it will be slower, but not excruciatingly slow. People are used to changing train lines coming from airports elsewhere, so we aren't really a huge outlier there.

Prior to the line 2 extension you were already transferring from one bus to another unless you lived downtown or on the SE transitway. That's less appealing than walking across a train platform. Also, trains are much easier for luggage than buses, so that is an improvement.

For me personally, and most people near line 2 it will be better once it reopens. Lots more intensification happening in that corridor. From work downtown it will be a bit slower but I'll still use it.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by phil235

I'm just not sure that this will be as bad as you are thinking. You are right that from downtown it will be slower, but not excruciatingly slow. People are used to changing train lines coming from airports elsewhere, so we aren't really a huge outlier there.

Prior to the line 2 extension you were already transferring from one bus to another unless you lived downtown or on the SE transitway. That's less appealing than walking across a train platform. Also, trains are much easier for luggage than buses, so that is an improvement.

For me personally, and most people near line 2 it will be better once it reopens. Lots more intensification happening in that corridor. From work downtown it will be a bit slower but I'll still use it.

Yes you're not wrong. Also the direct bus has been gone since LRT opened so the comparison is current take the train walk down the stairs wait 10-20 minutes in the rain for bus.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes you're not wrong. Also the direct bus has been gone since LRT opened so the comparison is current take the train walk down the stairs wait 10-20 minutes in the rain for bus.

This is more about the lousy design of Hurdman Station.

I will await for the reviews once the airport spur opens. Feedback from visitors will be particularly interesting.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I used to take the direct bus from my office in Centretown even for work travel. It was almost as fast as a taxi and why not. I don't do that already with one transfer. But for most people yes I guess you are right at the end of the day one transfer and the limitied number of people really walking distance to a station limits the airport line anyway and those that really want to save money will put up with transfers and prefer rail only transfers to a bus/rail.

When going to the airport the choices are:

1) Drive, park n fly. Appropriate for those traveling with lots of people. Or you can afford parking and have multiple cars in your family.

2) Uber/Taxi. Great if somebody else (like work) is paying for it. Also good, if a party of more than one, can justify sharing the cost.

3) Transit. Good if traveling alone and have time to get to the airport by train. Getting two adults and several kids under 12 to the airport for $8 is a bargain.

If I'm traveling for work and/or my flight is at an unusual hour (early in the morning or late at night), I'll Uber or taxi. If we're traveling as a family, we usually have the day off anyway, and the flight is at a reasonable hour. We'll just bus/train.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

The inner urban areas were the highest ridership areas pre-covid, and it is quite clear that the losses in those areas are directly related to frequency cuts and added transfers to the O-Train which could easily double the length of short trips. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize that when you convert a bus trip that took 15 minutes into one that becomes 30 with a transfer (or even 60 if you miss the now less frequent bus), people aren't going to pay for that service. When walking is faster, able bodied people aren't going to shell out $130 a month so they can take longer to get downtown.

Yep. The bus cuts really didn't help. Whatever was gained by rail, has basically been cancelled out by their bus cuts and more meandering routes.

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

In the present tense?

To some extent yes. It's a lot more reliable than the past. But replacement service still happens way too often for a new system. And unfortunately this just reinforces existing views.