Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[asies1981]

Post on the 2nd and 2nd Apartments.

[delts145]

^^^
Nice, A definite improvement for that corner.


Rendering of the southeast corner of the 2nd and 2nd Apartments. Image courtesy Salt Lake City public documents.

[Utah_Dave]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

I think what they are doing with Dicks is a huge waste of space. That is one of the best spaces in gateway and they are turning it in to offices?

I think it would have been cool to turn the bottom of dicks in to a grocery store and then have small places to eat on the upper floor to replace the food court.

Then they could turn where skybox use to be in to a bowling alley, and also put either a petsmart or a petco in there... maybe where forever 21 use to be. They could also put a new night club in there somewhere since the Depot is going to become a hotel... why not put stuff in that the area doesn’t have?

^^^^

Not a bad idea with the grocery market being on the lower level. Because the space is so big they could have put the year round farmers market there also until the granery development final takes place. The offices was a bit odd but the new owners are just dealing with the hand they were delt. Perhaps eventually though. It is an attractive space but difficult to fill out I bet.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by jubguy3

I hope that Utah can shift some of its economic outlooks away from the assumption that our population is going to keep exploding. It is incredibly rare for a highly developed entity like Utah to maintain such a high birth rate (until last year, Utah had a similar total fertility to India, matched with one of the lowest death rates in the United States, both as a result of low cancer mortality and obesity rates and a younger population). Eventually demographic transition is going to catch up and people are going to want to stop having kids.

So no, I don't believe Utah's boom is "sustainable".

Utah has population momentum. Even if Utah's total fertility rate falls to replacement rate it will take decades from that date for the population to stabilize. Short of a mass exodus of young people, a plague, etc Utah will continue to grow. By the time(if) Utah's natural population increase stabilizes Utah will likely be a much different place.

Further population growth tends to create a positive feedback loop and population decline a negative one. Growth creates opportunity and decline usually causes blight and stagnation. I suspect that as more states start feeling the effects of an aging population Utah will still be a place of growth and opportunity.

Utah's growth does appear to be quite sustainable.

[(Eco)nomy_404]

Originally Posted by Liberty Wellsian

Utah has population momentum. Even if Utah's total fertility rate falls to replacement rate it will take decades from that date for the population to stabilize. Short of a mass exodus of young people, a plague, etc Utah will continue to grow. By the time(if) Utah's natural population increase stabilizes Utah will likely be a much different place.

Further population growth tends to create a positive feedback loop and population decline a negative one. Growth creates opportunity and decline usually causes blight and stagnation. I suspect that as more states start feeling the effects of an aging population Utah will still be a place of growth and opportunity.

Utah's growth does appear to be quite sustainable.

It’s pretty impressive that the state hit its first million mark in 1970, gained its 2nd million in 30 years, then it’s 3rd million in half that time. A lot of that growth may have been from babies, but yesterday’s babies are today’s adults...and babies. It’s definitely a positive feedback loop that keeps building upon itself. And it’s been going for over a century and a half. I’d call that sustainable.

[Utah_Dave]

Some of the unique negative feedback challenges we face area geographically and cultural. I would say in general our culture favors suburbs. When we try to pack too many people into a small geographical area, there are the obvious challenges all cities face. I see our geography creating a rather large negative feedback cycle with air pollution and continued population growth. This is a challenge that probably won't be overcome for quite a few generations if it's possible. The second challenge that I feel is more unique to us in Utah is that we generally prefer suburban life at high percentage rate to other cities. This may be changing but I feel we will always lag in this area due to our birth rate, oddly enough. This will continue sprawl and will eventually be a negative to population growth. I fore see a solid 15-25 years of good growth, then depending on how well we meet the challenges of this type of growth, we could see a slow exodus of people looking for a more favorable, cleaner atmosphere. Literally.

[Ironweed]

Originally Posted by delts145

I was thinking the same thing Utah Dave. A tower in the 500 foot range would make for an attractive transition to a taller skyline. I would like to see three or four around 500 feet, and then start thinking about 600-plus, once the 500 foot range is established.

Hurrah for Delts! Happy New Year to a smart man!

[Comrade]

Based on how slow development moves in Salt Lake City, I expect we'll have a 500 footer by 2030.

[msbutah]

Re: 222 being closed, just chatted with our building manager (WF Center) and he said that on Saturday they had a fire riser break on the 6th floor and so the fire pumps ran for 45 minutes solid. Pushed something like 27,000 gallons of water into every floor below 6. Destroyed the power risers in the stair wells and basically everything from 6 down has to be gutted.

[(Eco)nomy_404]

Originally Posted by Utah_Dave

Some of the unique negative feedback challenges we face area geographically and cultural. I would say in general our culture favors suburbs. When we try to pack too many people into a small geographical area, there are the obvious challenges all cities face. I see our geography creating a rather large negative feedback cycle with air pollution and continued population growth. This is a challenge that probably won't be overcome for quite a few generations if it's possible. The second challenge that I feel is more unique to us in Utah is that we generally prefer suburban life at high percentage rate to other cities. This may be changing but I feel we will always lag in this area due to our birth rate, oddly enough. This will continue sprawl and will eventually be a negative to population growth. I fore see a solid 15-25 years of good growth, then depending on how well we meet the challenges of this type of growth, we could see a slow exodus of people looking for a more favorable, cleaner atmosphere. Literally.

The trend in the region is moving toward smaller lots and denser developments. Dense developments have broad public support according to research by Envision Utah.

Land-use patterns are gradually changing, data indicates, in light of market forces. As available acreage along the Wasatch Front continues to shrink, the average Utah home lot size is now less than half as large as it was a generation ago, according to Envision Utah research. Mixed-use and development with a focus on multiple modes of transportation, Provo Mayor John Curtis said, "is on a roll."

Today, Utah's population centers are in the midst of an unprecedented building boom for apartments, while average lot sizes for single-family homes continue to shrink. New, more dense and walkable suburban commercial centers and transit-oriented developments are popping up across the valley. And the stage is set for added municipal funding of a variety of public transportation projects.

Walking more and using cars less is a big theme. Eighty-two percent of those surveyed by Envision Utah said they supported mixed-use centers throughout the state's urban areas "where it is convenient to walk, bike, take public transportation or drive a short distance."

http://archive.sltrib.com/article.ph...40&itype=CMSID

I’ve lived in a number of places around the country, and been to 40 of the 50 States. Utah has very densely packed suburbs relative to other cities from my experience. Atlanta, for example, is notorious for its lack of density. It has sprawling suburban areas that start immediately outside the CBD, giving it the distinction as being the world’s sprawliest major city. Boston, which is known for being a fairly dense city, is surprisingly very similar to Atlanta in terms of population density outside its central core (as is the case with most East Coast metropolitan areas.)

Utah’s geography is as much a blessing as it is a curse. While it may create traffic bottle necks and trap in pollution, it has forced the state to adopt some of the strictest emissions standards in the country, invest heavily in mass transit, and curb sprawl with more multi-family dwellings and smaller lot sizes. Pollution levels have decreased along the Wasatch Front by 25% since 2000, despite the population growing by 50% during that time. The rail system is estimated to remove 120,000 vehicles from the roads per day, and has allowed the University of Utah to bulldoze 1/3 of its parking lots to make room for new buildings.

[Jiffy]

Originally Posted by (Eco)nomy_404

The trend in the region is moving toward smaller lots and denser developments. Dense developments have broad public support according to research by Envision Utah.



I’ve lived in a number of places around the country, and been to 40 of the 50 States. Utah has very densely packed suburbs relative to other cities from my experience. Atlanta, for example, is notorious for its lack of density. It has sprawling suburban areas that start immediately outside the CBD, giving it the distinction as being the world’s sprawliest major city. Boston, which is known for being a fairly dense city, is surprisingly very similar to Atlanta in terms of population density outside its central core (as is the case with most East Coast metropolitan areas.)

That may be (taking your word as I've only been to like 10 states) but Boston and Atlanta and most other cities, especially going east of Colorado/ New Mexico don't have unique landscapes that create unhealthy air quality and inland restrictions. Going off the geographically challenging area for a city like Salt Lake there really should be no sprawl at all, if anything leaders there need to create restrictions in place making new suburban areas increasingly difficult to create. Lets face it, the culture in Utah will probably never be a strong urban presence, but ways you can help fix that is by providing mainly semi-urban to urban housing only to meet demand and limit suburban communities. But I understand getting every city in the Salt Lake basin to cooperate is a completely different story. But if the demand for housing in Utah is only being met by urban development then people really have no choice, and hopefully their upcoming generations won't be so scared of city living as they currently are now in Utah.

Its sad as it seems that if your leaders cared at all about their state/city then you think they would be demanding more of a change than what they are doing. Its not always about satisfying the newcomers and about money, sometimes the heath and well being of the city needs more consideration also.

[Utah_Dave]

Originally Posted by Ironweed

http://www.cnn.com/style/article/201...oom/index.html

So, Another year in SLC without a Skyscraper. Will SLC ever get one? Ever? (500 ft+)

Draper, and Sandy have elected no growth mayors. Hopefully, this along with the up and coming real estate development opps for the city will finally usher in a real tower or two.

If this is true about the Draper and Sandy mayors. The election of these mayors might be showing the resistance and push back to high density developments in these surrounding cities that will be required to reduce sprawl. Envision Utah’s survey may only be getting feedback from interested residents and skewing the numbers for the survey. IMO we will always have a relatively large amount of sprawl if we continue to grow at this clip.

You are absolutely right about cities in the east having just as much, if not more sprawl because they can spread out, but our culture will resist true high density housing more then others due to the birth rate in my eyes. Have the surrounding cities truly made significant zoning changes and restrictions about containing sprawl or is it mostly a work in progress still?

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by Jiffy

That may be (taking your word as I've only been to like 10 states) but Boston and Atlanta and most other cities, especially going east of Colorado/ New Mexico don't have unique landscapes that create unhealthy air quality and inland restrictions. Going off the geographically challenging area for a city like Salt Lake there really should be no sprawl at all, if anything leaders there need to create restrictions in place making new suburban areas increasingly difficult to create. Lets face it, the culture in Utah will probably never be a strong urban presence, but ways you can help fix that is by providing mainly semi-urban to urban housing only to meet demand and limit suburban communities. But I understand getting every city in the Salt Lake basin to cooperate is a completely different story. But if the demand for housing in Utah is only being met by urban development then people really have no choice, and hopefully their upcoming generations won't be so scared of city living as they currently are now in Utah.

Its sad as it seems that if your leaders cared at all about their state/city then you think they would be demanding more of a change than what they are doing. Its not always about satisfying the newcomers and about money, sometimes the heath and well being of the city needs more consideration also.

Worst Cities ranked by American Lung Association. This is where we are at relative to other cities.

http://www.lung.org/our-initiatives/...city-rankings/

I'm actually fairly optimistic that our air quality will continue to improve(yes it is better than it used to be). We are seeing more density, electric cars are becoming affordable, ever stricter federal regulations on vehicle and industrial emissions(Trump is temporary), and a great transit backbone to build upon.

Yeah the inversions are a curse but they are also kind of a blessing. For instance, I highly doubt that we would have the transit system that we have now without them. 30 days or so of bad air has improved the air quality for the other 335 days.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Utah_Dave

If this is true about the Draper and Sandy mayors. The election of these mayors might be showing the resistance and push back to high density developments in these surrounding cities that will be required to reduce sprawl. Envision Utah’s survey may only be getting feedback from interested residents and skewing the numbers for the survey. IMO we will always have a relatively large amount of sprawl if we continue to grow at this clip.

You are absolutely right about cities in the east having just as much, if not more sprawl because they can spread out, but our culture will resist true high density housing more then others due to the birth rate in my eyes. Have the surrounding cities truly made significant zoning changes and restrictions about containing sprawl or is it mostly a work in progress still?

It is true about Sandy, at least. Their mayoral candidate ran specifically on Sandy being choked with high-density housing. Whatever the hell that means.

[Utah_Dave]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Based on how slow development moves in Salt Lake City, I expect we'll have a 500 footer by 2030.

That's probably pretty realistic but you gotta think the new tax rate should move projects forward a little quicker now. Now we gotta work on the zoning to stream line the process a little too.

[Utah_Dave]

I know this is way off topic but how do you see the tax cuts affecting Inflation? I'm too lazy to dig into it myself, any experts out there?

[jubguy3]

Originally Posted by Utah_Dave

That's probably pretty realistic but you gotta think the new tax rate should move projects forward a little quicker now. Now we gotta work on the zoning to stream line the process a little too.

Thanks. I will enjoy my new 500 foot towers while my healthcare gets cut and the debt continues to needlessly increase Anything for a sexy skyline.

Utah has a "business-friendly" economic climate already. I don't see this cut motivating a developer that would have restrained otherwise... and it's a nationwide tax increase, which puts SLC on the same level of desirability to build anyways. This is a real estate value and a zoning issue, not a tax or regulatory issue. If it doesn't make economic sense to pay the cost to build a 40 foot tower, I don't think anyone is going to want to build anything taller, and I don't think tax rates can help impact that too much. Utah needs to start understanding the impending land shortage crisis and the value of building early, but our regulation-lax laws don't incentivize developers to build up now. And tax rates aren't going to make a 50 foot tower more attractive than the same value of construction over a large plot, the same way that it was now. We need to incentivize upwards and not outwards, but apparently any sort of non-private interference in the economy is heresy in this state.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by jubguy3

Thanks. I will enjoy my new 500 foot towers while my healthcare gets cut and the debt continues to needlessly increase Anything for a sexy skyline.

Oh stop with the hyperbole.

We're not getting a 500 footer before everyone's taxes go up significantly in 2021.

[(Eco)nomy_404]

Originally Posted by Jiffy

That may be (taking your word as I've only been to like 10 states) but Boston and Atlanta and most other cities, especially going east of Colorado/ New Mexico don't have unique landscapes that create unhealthy air quality and inland restrictions. Going off the geographically challenging area for a city like Salt Lake there really should be no sprawl at all, if anything leaders there need to create restrictions in place making new suburban areas increasingly difficult to create. Lets face it, the culture in Utah will probably never be a strong urban presence, but ways you can help fix that is by providing mainly semi-urban to urban housing only to meet demand and limit suburban communities. But I understand getting every city in the Salt Lake basin to cooperate is a completely different story. But if the demand for housing in Utah is only being met by urban development then people really have no choice, and hopefully their upcoming generations won't be so scared of city living as they currently are now in Utah.

Its sad as it seems that if your leaders cared at all about their state/city then you think they would be demanding more of a change than what they are doing. Its not always about satisfying the newcomers and about money, sometimes the heath and well being of the city needs more consideration also.

In an ideal world, yes, there would be no sprawl. I definitely agree with you there. As a realist (an optimistic realist to be precise), I tend to support and encourage more practical solutions that are effective, yet still palatable to people’s tastses and preferences. In comparing UT to other places, my intention is not to justify the sprawl that exists in the state. I mean to show how far ahead the Wasatch Front is from peers like Charlotte, Kansas City, Milwaukee, and even larger cities like Atlanta and Jacksonville.

I think trends will continue to shift as they have recently. Hopefully, with more people living in dense suburban developments, the step into the urban center won’t be as “scary” for them. Even in a multi-polar development model with urban centers popping up across the front, I think that is ok too. It’s actually more environmentally friendly for someone in the south valley to commute to Daybreak, Lehi, or Sandy than to go to SLC. It also would more evenly distribute traffic flows. Plus, with a robust transit system, people would be able to access these hubs that way as an alternative to the automobile (which is what already sets apart suburban office parks in UT from its sprawlier peers.)

[ajiuO]

Not ground breaking news... but it looks like they are building an El Pollo Loco on 300w in front of Target... so much better then Popeyes!!!

I’m sure there will be a Popeyes next door before to long... seems like el pollo loco and Popeyes like to build right next to each other.