LeBreton Flats 2.0 (RendezVous LeBreton) | Cancelled

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I already did. I think I know what streets he is talking about, but it is hard to tell for sure. If they are the streets I am thinking of, there are many holes, but he has left it so vague that it is hard to counter.

For example, he talks about a "6 lane arterial road coming from Gatineau" which I assume is the Portage bridge, but it doesn't terminate in LeBreton. You have use the SJAM parkway, which I assume is his "6 lane arterial road leading from downtown." Which means he is counting it twice. That is just one example.

"4 lane freeway from the west" SJAM Parkway (seems to have capacity for 6 lanes through Lebreton)
"6 lane arterial road leading from downtown" Wellington
"6 lane arterial road coming from Gatineau" Maisonneuve/Portage Bridge
"2-4 lane arterial road coming from gatineau"
"4 lane arterial road coming from downtown" - Albert

There are also several collector roads coming from the South.

I understand the strategy is that if you threaten to drive the city will get so scared that they will make someone else pay for your transit. It's not a bad strategy, but I think the city should call your bluff. If you want to drive and pay a huge premium for parking then drive, but your experience would be a lot better if you payed the $7 for transit.

[lrt's friend]

Does a Bluesfest ticket include transit?

One of the main benefits of including transit in the ticket price is not having to collect fares when massive crowds are departing. I use the Lansdowne service every RedBlack game and you need to get people on the buses quickly through all bus doors. This becomes even more important when we introduce fare gates. We have to keep people moving. We cannot install enough ticket machines to serve the demand which will lead to unmanageable queues. We are not New York where the vast majority in Manhattan use the subway regularly and will already have a fare card.

Regarding traffic, we still have to move people from an Albert Street location or residential streets to the south or west. This will be problematic to get this traffic from these locations over to the bigger capacity roads mentioned. The only accesses will be by Booth, Parkdale significantly to the west and downtown significantly to the east. There is limited access to Highway 417 to the south or any parts of the south part of the city. This will be more problematic than to CTC with direct access to Highway 417 right next to the arena.

A transportation plan is just as important for Lebreton as Lansdowne. They may not be exactly the same but a plan is needed. We cannot just let things happen and try to deal with unmanageable traffic levels. The transportation plan needs to include transit as the road capacities are inadequate. We need to divert as many people as possible to transit or we will have a big problem. In order to divert people, the transit plan needs to be attractive. Special event buses to Gatineau are inevitable with no rail service across the river.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by roger1818

But Bluesfest also includes "OC Transpo service to and from the festival, starting 3 hours before gates open until 2 hours after they close."

http://www.ottawabluesfest.ca/transportation/

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Does a Bluesfest ticket include transit?

As stated above, yes. Check the link if you don't believe me. It is the first thing they say.

[acottawa]

Bluesfest has only included a transit surcharge since 2016 - the festival managed for decades without one. The surcharge led to a pretty steep increases in prices, particularly for the pass.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Bluesfest has only included a transit surcharge since 2016 - the festival managed for decades without one. The surcharge led to a pretty steep increases in prices, particularly for the pass.

What is the alternative? I presume taxpayers were subsidizing the extra service before 2016.

If we want to have more and more major events especially downtown, the city cannot continue to subsidizing more and more transit for these events. It is not sustainable.

Sure, a steep price increase, but if you want transportation every day for a 10 day event, that costs money. As I said, it is not manageable to clear large events and expect each transit rider to pay a fare individually. It is also not manageable to make parking near the event the first choice because it is 'free'. Believe me, I can be a cheapskate, and before the current Lansdowne plan, I always chose the 'free' option and parked on residential streets. At some point with intensification and increasingly scarce parking, this does not work anymore.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

What is the alternative? I presume taxpayers were subsidizing the extra service before 2016.

If we want to have more and more major events especially downtown, the city cannot continue to subsidizing more and more transit for these events. It is not sustainable.

Sure, a steep price increase, but if you want transportation every day for a 10 day event, that costs money. As I said, it is not manageable to clear large events and expect each transit rider to pay a fare individually. It is also not manageable to make parking near the event the first choice because it is 'free'. Believe me, I can be a cheapskate, and before the current Lansdowne plan, I always chose the 'free' option and parked on residential streets. At some point with intensification and increasingly scarce parking, this does not work anymore.

What was the city doing with the money from the farebox before? While transit overall is is a money loser, full buses should be bringing in lots of additional revenue.

Also, it is not clear to me why an event should be different from anything else. If the city has to add buses to serve the Rideau Centre nobody charges a transit surcharge to enter the Rideau Centre. If we want to move to a system where destinations pay for transit then that's fine, but then we should be sending bills to shopping malls, restaurants, employers, recreational facilities, Via Rail, etc.

[BlackRedGold]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

One of the main benefits of including transit in the ticket price is not having to collect fares when massive crowds are departing. I use the Lansdowne service every RedBlack game and you need to get people on the buses quickly through all bus doors. This becomes even more important when we introduce fare gates. We have to keep people moving. We cannot install enough ticket machines to serve the demand which will lead to unmanageable queues. We are not New York where the vast majority in Manhattan use the subway regularly and will already have a fare card.

Regarding traffic, we still have to move people from an Albert Street location or residential streets to the south or west. This will be problematic to get this traffic from these locations over to the bigger capacity roads mentioned. The only accesses will be by Booth, Parkdale significantly to the west and downtown significantly to the east. There is limited access to Highway 417 to the south or any parts of the south part of the city. This will be more problematic than to CTC with direct access to Highway 417 right next to the arena.

A transportation plan is just as important for Lebreton as Lansdowne. They may not be exactly the same but a plan is needed. We cannot just let things happen and try to deal with unmanageable traffic levels. The transportation plan needs to include transit as the road capacities are inadequate. We need to divert as many people as possible to transit or we will have a big problem. In order to divert people, the transit plan needs to be attractive. Special event buses to Gatineau are inevitable with no rail service across the river.

This is Chicken Little stuff. Unmanageable traffic levels? Give me a break. It is right beside downtown where far more than 18,000 people regularly make their way home every work day.

In your scenario it sounds like everyone leaving the arena will be simultaneously driving home and taking transit home.

In the early day of the CTC, the 417 was only 2 lanes each way all the way to Nepean. How is that different than the Sir John A? And at Lebreton the majority of the people there will not be traveling in one direction. There are a 4 streets heading south to the 417. There are 2 multilane routes north to Quebec.

While being right next to a major highway would be preferable, it's not the end of the world. The location is far superior to Landsdowne.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

What was the city doing with the money from the farebox before? While transit overall is is a money loser, full buses should be bringing in lots of additional revenue.

Also, it is not clear to me why an event should be different from anything else. If the city has to add buses to serve the Rideau Centre nobody charges a transit surcharge to enter the Rideau Centre. If we want to move to a system where destinations pay for transit then that's fine, but then we should be sending bills to shopping malls, restaurants, employers, recreational facilities, Via Rail, etc.

Your argument is getting tiresome. Somebody has to pay for transit. Why not the attendees? In the case of day to day activities, you pay through fares and taxes. Often, this is the most practical way. There are no tickets to enter the Rideau Centre. The attendees of special pay events that put pressure on the transit system should pay their fair share, and the most practical way to do it is through the event ticket price. And it is proven to work. End of story.

[lrt's friend]

Why are people objecting to paying for transit as part of an event ticket price? Is this some libertarian thing? I am puzzled.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by BlackRedGold

This is Chicken Little stuff. Unmanageable traffic levels? Give me a break. It is right beside downtown where far more than 18,000 people regularly make their way home every work day.

In your scenario it sounds like everyone leaving the arena will be simultaneously driving home and taking transit home.

In the early day of the CTC, the 417 was only 2 lanes each way all the way to Nepean. How is that different than the Sir John A? And at Lebreton the majority of the people there will not be traveling in one direction. There are a 4 streets heading south to the 417. There are 2 multilane routes north to Quebec.

While being right next to a major highway would be preferable, it's not the end of the world. The location is far superior to Landsdowne.

CTC has its transportation problems and we have heard it for years. So, what is your point? I suggest that we need a transportation plan for an arena at Lebreton that encourages transit use and that is a problem?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Also, it is not clear to me why an event should be different from anything else. If the city has to add buses to serve the Rideau Centre nobody charges a transit surcharge to enter the Rideau Centre. If we want to move to a system where destinations pay for transit then that's fine, but then we should be sending bills to shopping malls, restaurants, employers, recreational facilities, Via Rail, etc.

I don't know about the Rideau Centre specifically, but I do know many venues pay OC Transpo to provide better bus service. I know Nortel did in their heyday and I believe the Tanger Mall does. There are also the free shopping shuttles that OC Transpo operates. I am sure they aren't doing them out of the goodness of their heart.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Why are people objecting to paying for transit as part of an event ticket price? Is this some libertarian thing? I am puzzled.

Little sympathy with freeloaders with enough money to buy expensive tickets that want somebody else to pay their transit fare.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by BlackRedGold

In the early day of the CTC, the 417 was only 2 lanes each way all the way to Nepean. How is that different than the Sir John A?

And traffic was a nightmare before and after events. Fortunately back then the roads in that part of town were mostly empty late at night, so it didn't affect too many other people.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Little sympathy with freeloaders with enough money to buy expensive tickets that want somebody else to pay their transit fare.

The hope is the vast majority will be paying for their own transit fare as part of their ticket. If they choose to drive anyway, that is their problem and I have no sympathy for them. They will at least benefit from less traffic. Yes there will be a few people who already have a bus pass and will thus pay twice and a few who live withing walking distance and will pay needlessly, but I suspect they will be in in the minority. We are talking about less than 5% of the cost of the ticket and in some cases less than 1%. As you said, these are people paying hundreds of dollars to attend the event, a buck or two is nothing to them.

[J.OT13]

The debate should be about how to get people in and out of the arena in the most efficient way possible, not whether or not it's ok to charge people a few extra bucks on a Sens or concert ticket to benefit the ones who choose transit.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The debate should be about how to get people in and out of the arena in the most efficient way possible, not whether or not it's ok to charge people a few extra bucks on a Sens or concert ticket to benefit the ones who choose transit.

Isn't that the debate that is going on - whether or not a ticket surcharge is the best way to encourage transit use?

As noted before, higher transit use benefits everyone, not just those who choose transit.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The debate should be about how to get people in and out of the arena in the most efficient way possible, not whether or not it's ok to charge people a few extra bucks on a Sens or concert ticket to benefit the ones who choose transit.

Some of the arguments are nothing different than for the Unipass. Individual benefit versus group benefit. I am bewildered by some of the comments. It is really losing sight of the point of the debate. As you said, moving people efficiently.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by phil235

Isn't that the debate that is going on - whether or not a ticket surcharge is the best way to encourage transit use?

As noted before, higher transit use benefits everyone, not just those who choose transit.

Agreed. It is not about being cheap. It is about getting as many people to use transit as possible. As others a have said, if you can get people to use the LRT that otherwise wouldn't have, maybe they will like it and use it more often.

In my mind, even a small increase in transit use is worth the effort. As I said before, the only reason why events at the CTC don't have a transit surcharge is the Senators want to maximize revenue from parking. It was like pulling teeth to even get the dedicated on ramp for buses for fear that it would encourage more people to take the bus to events. They won't have that fear at LeBreton as the Senators will have minimal parking to sell and they shouldn't have any problem filling the lot.

[Vixx]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The debate should be about how to get people in and out of the arena in the most efficient way possible, not whether or not it's ok to charge people a few extra bucks on a Sens or concert ticket to benefit the ones who choose transit.

Agree. The first priority should be on how to get people in and out of the arena as smoothly and efficiently as possible, things like transit, surcharges etc. come afterwards.

It's hard to speculate however because we are still a few years away from construction actually proceeding, so talking about transit and transit ticket surcharges is actually possible right now because that is actually feasible. To figure out how to get people in and out of the arena in an efficient manner, we have to wait for official renderings, location of parking etc.

[McC]

The Councillor's high-level expectations for a redeveloped LeBreton Flats
http://catherinemckenney.ca/en/2017/...ebreton-flats/