Sports in Canadian culture

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Leafs fans sure don't seem to have trouble getting jacked up for games against Ottawa or Montreal... why is it an issue when it comes to football?

Minor league versus major league.

If the CFL was major league calibre, don't think for a second Toronto would be uninterested. But its clearly not, nor should it matter. Its a great regional league representing canada, and treat it as such and have regional representation.

Its like a short guy running around saying size don't matter while getting someone to feel his biceps.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Minor league versus major league.

If the CFL was major league calibre, don't think for a second Toronto would be uninterested. But its clearly not, nor should it matter. Its a great regional league representing canada, and treat it as such and have regional representation.

Its like a short guy running around saying size don't matter while getting someone to feel his biceps.

And why exactly is the CFL minor league? And why are Canadian cities not on your radar? Last time I checked watching sports was about watching sports, not watching random groups of athletes representing a city most of them aren't from. You should watch the Blue Jays instead of the Argonauts if you prefer baseball to football, not because they play American teams.

[Steveston]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Minor league versus major league.

If the CFL was major league calibre, don't think for a second Toronto would be uninterested. But its clearly not, nor should it matter. Its a great regional league representing canada, and treat it as such and have regional representation.

Its like a short guy running around saying size don't matter while getting someone to feel his biceps.

Isn't that a contradiction? It's a national league -- admittedly it would be better if Atlantic Canada were represented -- but it's definitely not a regional league. The OHL, WHL and QMJHL are regional leagues.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Minor league versus major league.

If the CFL was major league calibre, don't think for a second Toronto would be uninterested.

And there you have if folks! Some Torontonians care more about prestige than the actual sport. Americans don't think like that. If they did, UCLA, USC, Ohio State, Auburn, Florida State, Nebraska, Texas, Michigan, Penn State, etc. All these schools would see their fan base desert them. It's not the NFL after all!

That said, the idea that CFL players aren't worth the bother is off the mark and ridiculous. The worst team in CFL would cream any NCAA team. Americans support NCAA massively despite it being a few rungs down from the NFL talent wise. The CFL is Canada's football league and as Canada's largest city it should show leadership and champion it rather than crap all over it incessantly.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

And why exactly is the CFL minor league? And why are Canadian cities not on your radar? Last time I checked watching sports was about watching sports, not watching random groups of athletes representing a city most of them aren't from. You should watch the Blue Jays instead of the Argonauts if you prefer baseball to football, not because they play American teams.

Couldn't agree more. Toronto is detached from Canada in many ways. Many no little about the country beyond southern Ontario (and Montreal) while some think Toronto is too good for the likes of Winnipeg, Calgary, and God forbid Regina. You wouldn't see Paris, London, or New York turning their backs on their own country and its cultural institutions like that. They do the opposite actually. They act as the power base for their country in sports.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Let's be honest here, nobody knows with any degree of certainty why the Argos are flopping in Toronto. One can only collate various reasons provided by Toronto sports fans and come to general assumptions and educated guesses. Sometimes it comes across like CFL fans want someone to blame for the lack of support for the Argos, such as "those damn immigrants" and "wannabe Americans" instead of poor marketing or bad strategic decisions by the league, etc.

Torontonians haven't been treated to a proper football atmosphere at games since the days of Varsity Stadium. That's the problem. There's nothing wrong with the sport of Canadian Football or the CFL. It's clear to any one who's watched CFL, CIS, or even high school elsewhere in Canada. Replicate in Toronto what's happening in Ottawa and football will revive here. My hope is that it will come full circle and the GTA will one day host 2-3 CFL teams. 25-30 years from now?

Canadians outside Toronto are incensed that a city we should be looking to for leadership is doing the complete opposite. I live in Toronto and think it's unconscionable.

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

I say this as someone who wants the league to succeed, and as someone who immigrated to this country and played Canadian football in both elementary school and highschool, winning an award in my senior high team, yet I'm not motivated to watch CFL games other than the occasional Grey Cup. I still want the best for all quality leagues in this country including the CFL. I personally feel that the Argos can't survive in this city which uniquely has more sports watching options than any other city in the country without making major marketing and strategic changes.

I'm an immigrant to Canada as well. My family moved here from London and I've been an avid fan from the first time I saw the sport at aged 11. It's very hard being a CFL fan in Toronto, not because its the CFL but because of the apathy, indifference, and borderline ridicule you encounter when you admit that you watch it. I play in a Toronto flag football league and even there I feel it. Following CFL is not considered a cool thing to do.

One has to ask how much better the CFL would be if Torontonians supported this league with the same gusto we see in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, or Alberta. If the atmosphere towards CFL was positive in Toronto, I bet you'd be more inclined to follow it.

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Its not 1873 anymore, neither is it 1973, this city has grown tremendously in population, dynamism and options. In this hyper competitive environment, its not sufficient to have the same branding and dare i say it name, if other factors are also working against you. One of the reasons the Maple Leafs is so successful here despite a crappy track record is that not only does it have deep roots here like Argos, but it is also in a league which allows it to both maintain pan-Canadian rivalries with all major Canadian teams but also maintain rivalries with larger cities via the US-based teams.

The branding is a big issue, but being in an all-Canadian league shouldn't be. I was born in London and the local soccer squads play in an all England league. It's considered a wonderful thing, not something negative. It helps unite the country in a way nothing else could. Canada deserves the same.

You'd see a hell of a lot more scorn thrown at Londoners than we see here towards Toronto if London based soccer fans thought playing Sunderland, Liverpool, or Southampton was beneath them. They'd be a riot. The accusation that Toronto has tunnel vision for the US is well earned while Torontonians wanting to play Chicago and Miami instead of Winnipeg and Vancouver predictably results in a backlash. If I lived in one of those cities I'd react in exactly the same way.

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

..... and the name of the team conjures up images of Greek culture, not something the average Canadian or Torontonian could feel inspired by (the ownership group could still be called the Toronto Argos Group while changing the team name to something more appropriate if this has important heritage value). The Argos have great potential here, but tough choices must be made.

Interesting. I've always viewed the name 'Argonauts' as one of the best in north American sport. Perhaps it's just not been marketed properly. It's in the same vein as USC Trojans, Michigan State Spartans, but more unique/unusual imo. They also have the added tie in to Argonaut Rowing, the history behind all that, and 'Argonaut Blue' inspiration for the Maple Leafs' colours.

I don't want the NFL here. It would be salt in the wound if a city that gave birth to this sport, ended up turning its back upon it. Toronto needs to rejoin the flock and start building this league back up. This is the only national football league this country will ever have. Toronto, as our biggest city, needs to be the nucleus that bolsters it rather than treat it as that embarrassing family member you hide in the closet when guests come to town.

[elly63]

I have to say that the last few pages have been some of the best discussions, back and forth, pro and con, that I can remember at this site, Even points that I disagree with have been presented thoughtfully and with care.

Congratulations SkyscraperPage: Sports in Canadian culture forum posters!

[Berklon]

I'm not sure why Toronto gets picked on when it appears Montreal and Vancouver have a similar issue. Those 2 cities aren't exactly packing the stands as I see the average attendance for both are about 20,000 and 24,000 respectively this year.

These are highly populated cities and their attendance isn't that much better than Torontos.
I think part of the problem is that with bigger cities there's a lot more to do than take in a sporting event, and when they do want to dedicate some of their time to sports - they'd rather just "go big or go home" (so to speak).

[elly63]

The Great Canadian Ratings Report: CFL duds don’t scare off viewers
Chris Zelkovich Eh Game July 22/2014

If there are any questions as to why TSN forked over $40 million a year for CFL television rights, they were answered over the weekend.

If the past week is any indication, the CFL is approaching bulletproof status as a TV property in Canada. After all, if ratings can hold in the middle of summer with a product that has been -- and I'm being kind here -- terrible, then this is one solid property.

The first month of the 2014 season has given viewers every reason to go searching for Saved By The Bell reruns or the daily Duck Dynasty marathon. With few notable exceptions, the games have been painfully long, filled with penalties and either one-sided or just plain boring.

Imagine how confused ESPN viewers might be, wondering why the exciting football they'd been promised hasn't arrived yet.

Take a look at the most recent week. The showdown between two of the league's undefeated teams ended with Edmonton beating Winnipeg 26-3, a score that flattered the losers. The only competitive contest of the week saw the Ottawa RedBlacks end more than three hours of tedium by kicking their sixth field goal of the game to beat Toronto 18-17. It was a game that featured a lot more penalty flags than great plays and all of one touchdown.

One might argue that Friday's Hamilton-Calgary game was competitive, except for the fact that neither team appeared willing to compete. The Stampeders won this snooze-fest 10-7 as Hamilton failed to execute a last-minute field goal. Speaking of execution, it might have been a good idea.

There was one other CFL game, but it's best forgotten. The B.C. Lions won 41-5 over a Montreal team that apparently didn't get the memo about a players' strike being called off.

Yet despite this string of awful football, the viewers haven't turned off. The Edmonton-Winnipeg game on Thursday drew an average audience of 759,000 -- 56,000 more than last year's regular-season average of 703,000.

Considering that numbers tend to rise in the second half of the season, that's impressive.

The Montreal-B.C. game Saturday evening topped the weekend sports ratings with an average of 717,000 viewers, beating out the Toronto Blue Jays and the British Open. Assuming that most viewers had turned off their TVs by the fourth quarter -- unless they had either sadistic or masochistic tendencies -- it wouldn't be a stretch to guess that close to a million people had originally tuned in.

So, assuming that the football will get better, things bode well for the rest of the season. If football fans can endure this early season abuse, a string of typically thrilling CFL games should see TSN top last year's audience numbers.

Here are the most-watched sports events on English-language television for the past weekend, according to BBM Canada overnight ratings:

1. CFL, Alouettes at Lions, Saturday, TSN: 717,000
2. CFL, Ticats at Stampeders, Friday, TSN: 692,000
3. CFL, Argos at RedBlacks, Friday, TSN: 673,000
4. MLB, Blue Jays at Rangers, Sunday, Sportsnet One/360: 520,000
5. MLB, Blue Jays at Rangers, Friday, Sportsnet: 518,000
6. Golf, British Open final round, Sunday, TSN: 511,000
7. MLB, Blue Jays at Rangers, Saturday, Sportsnet One/360: 375,000
8. Golf, British Open third round, Saturday, TSN: 251,000
9. Auto racing, Toronto Indy, Sunday, Sportsnet: 227,000
10. Golf, British Open second round, Friday, TSN: 220,000
11. MLS, Whitecaps at Real Salt Lake, Saturday, TSN: 176,000
12. MLB, Dodgers at Cardinals, Sunday, TSN: 161,000
13. MLB, Royals at Red Sox, Saturday, Sportsnet: 121,000
14. Auto racing, F1 German Grand Prix, Sunday, TSN2: 119,000
15. Auto racing, Toronto Indy, Saturday, Sportsnet: 110,000

GlobalTV news story about return of REDBLACKS to Ottawa

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Stryker

its called the blue jays.

This is such an absurd scenario.

Why would I spend twice as much money, to goto an argos game. So I can watch my team play some city that isn't on my radar.
For just half the money, I goto a BJs game whenever I want at the exact same stadium and be part of something huge. And watch them play the YANKEES!!!
.

What is absurd is, powerhouse teams like the Yankees notwithstanding, that places like Kansas City and Oakland are more on the radar of the average Torontonian than Calgary or even Winnipeg. Not saying that's the case, but if it is... it's absurd.

I realize that that logic exists out there, but it's equally absurd when the NFL envy is raised and how Toronto just has to be in the bigs when the NFL is in places like Green Bay and Jacksonville. And Oakland.

Not saying that's the only argument NFL boosters have, but we often hear it and it's an extremely flimsy one.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Interesting. I've always viewed the name 'Argonauts' as one of the best in north American sport. Perhaps it's just not been marketed properly. It's in the same vein as USC Trojans, Michigan State Spartans, but more unique/unusual imo. They also have the added tie in to Argonaut Rowing, the history behind all that, and 'Argonaut Blue' inspiration for the Maple Leafs' colours.

I completely agree. Argonauts is definitely one of the best names around. It is steeped in tradition both in the Toronto sense and in the sense of classical mythology. The notion that the Argonauts name is a weak spot is complete nonsense IMO.

Originally Posted by isaidso

And there you have if folks! Some Torontonians care more about prestige than the actual sport. Americans don't think like that. If they did, UCLA, USC, Ohio State, Auburn, Florida State, Nebraska, Texas, Michigan, Penn State, etc. All these schools would see their fan base desert them. It's not the NFL after all!

Some of you rag on me for going on about Toronto and its failure to appreciate any sport that doesn't have the US seal of approval, but comments like Stryker's more or less confirm that that is very much the case.

It's funny/sad how the same Toronto fan who gets excited for a Leafs vs. Habs game and gets nostalgic about the Original Six days will all of a sudden turn up his nose at a game vs. the Alouettes and slam the CFL for having nine teams.

Originally Posted by Berklon

I'm not sure why Toronto gets picked on when it appears Montreal and Vancouver have a similar issue. Those 2 cities aren't exactly packing the stands as I see the average attendance for both are about 20,000 and 24,000 respectively this year.

These are highly populated cities and their attendance isn't that much better than Torontos.
I think part of the problem is that with bigger cities there's a lot more to do than take in a sporting event, and when they do want to dedicate some of their time to sports - they'd rather just "go big or go home" (so to speak).

Montreal and BC aren't perfect, but the difference is that the Als and Lions have a prominent place in their local sports firmament, as compared to Toronto which seems to go out of its way to ignore the CFL. When there is a big game, the Als (playing at the Big O) and Lions sometimes draw upwards of 50,000 fans... when was the last time that the Argos ever did that?

Originally Posted by elly63

Here are the most-watched sports events on English-language television for the past weekend, according to BBM Canada overnight ratings:

1. CFL, Alouettes at Lions, Saturday, TSN: 717,000
2. CFL, Ticats at Stampeders, Friday, TSN: 692,000
3. CFL, Argos at RedBlacks, Friday, TSN: 673,000
4. MLB, Blue Jays at Rangers, Sunday, Sportsnet One/360: 520,000
5. MLB, Blue Jays at Rangers, Friday, Sportsnet: 518,000
6. Golf, British Open final round, Sunday, TSN: 511,000
7. MLB, Blue Jays at Rangers, Saturday, Sportsnet One/360: 375,000
8. Golf, British Open third round, Saturday, TSN: 251,000
9. Auto racing, Toronto Indy, Sunday, Sportsnet: 227,000
10. Golf, British Open second round, Friday, TSN: 220,000
11. MLS, Whitecaps at Real Salt Lake, Saturday, TSN: 176,000
12. MLB, Dodgers at Cardinals, Sunday, TSN: 161,000
13. MLB, Royals at Red Sox, Saturday, Sportsnet: 121,000
14. Auto racing, F1 German Grand Prix, Sunday, TSN2: 119,000
15. Auto racing, Toronto Indy, Saturday, Sportsnet: 110,000

GlobalTV news story about return of REDBLACKS to Ottawa

For some reason the Star left out the top-rated game of the week from the list, being the Bombers vs. Eskimos. So there you have it, the supposedly "minor league" CFL once again sweeps the top of the sports ratings.

It's funny, because on the weekend I watching CBC News Network's morning show on Saturday and the only thing the sportscaster talked about was the British Open and not a word about the Redblacks' home debut... but from the looks of things the British Open probably had fewer viewers than the garbage-time portions of the CFL games when the outcomes were all decided.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by elly63

I have to say that the last few pages have been some of the best discussions, back and forth, pro and con, that I can remember at this site, Even points that I disagree with have been presented thoughtfully and with care.

Congratulations SkyscraperPage: Sports in Canadian culture forum posters!

Along these lines, I particularly liked the earlier long post by MisterCorporate.

I usually see him as an NFL booster only but his post was well-thought-out and pinpoints many things the Argos and the CFL have done wrong.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Along these lines, I particularly liked the earlier long post by MisterCorporate.

I usually see him as an NFL booster only but his post was well-thought-out and pinpoints many things the Argos and the CFL have done wrong.

That post was a reminder that the Argos became complacent right around the time they peaked in popularity in the 1970s, when they were drawing near-capacity crowds to Exhibition Stadium.

Maybe it was unrealistic to expect that to continue as competition in the marketplace grew with the addition of new teams, but it is really shameful to see how far the team was allowed to slide over the 20 years from, say, 1975 to 1995. From packed houses and front-page news to oceans of empty seats and back-page articles.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Berklon

I'm not sure why Toronto gets picked on when it appears Montreal and Vancouver have a similar issue. Those 2 cities aren't exactly packing the stands as I see the average attendance for both are about 20,000 and 24,000 respectively this year.

These are highly populated cities and their attendance isn't that much better than Torontos.
I think part of the problem is that with bigger cities there's a lot more to do than take in a sporting event, and when they do want to dedicate some of their time to sports - they'd rather just "go big or go home" (so to speak).

Point taken, but I think there are several reasons why Toronto gets crap for this.

First of all, while CFL-hating pro-NFL people exist all across Canada, those in Toronto can be particularly defiant and even hostile. Not sure if this is simply part of the hubris that comes with being the biggest city in the country, but certainly in other parts of the country the people who simply prefer the NFL, tend to simply say they prefer the NFL and leave it at that. Just like I say I don't watch basketball. I don't bash the NBA. It's just not my bag.

I guess this is exacerbated by the fact that there is a disconnect between the expectations people have about TO being Canada's metropolis, and also what people in TO see as their role. People in TO do have a "Hey Canada! We're your metropolis!'' type of attitude towards the rest of the country, but don't seem to go very far with the two-way follow-through that usually goes along with that. An interesting aside is I've always noticed how NCAA football has a lot of visibility in NYC (Times Square, media, etc.) as a "national thing" even though its local presence in the city is basically nil.

Finally, the national anglo media is based in Toronto, not Vancouver and Montreal. So when a guy sitting at a desk in Toronto reads off every single NFL week 6 scores (with highlights of each one) before talking about the CFL playoffs, that irks people too.

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Couldn't agree more. Toronto is detached from Canada in many ways. Many no little about the country beyond southern Ontario (and Montreal) while some think Toronto is too good for the likes of Winnipeg, Calgary, and God forbid Regina. You wouldn't see Paris, London, or New York turning their backs on their own country and its cultural institutions like that. They do the opposite actually. They act as the power base for their country in sports.

You can't force people to like football in Toronto. Get over it. It has little to do with Torontonians rejecting their country WE JUST DON'T CARE ABOUT FOOTBALL.

The demographic isn't there. The rivalries don't exist. Montreal might still have a baseball team, if the Blue Jays and Expos played in the same division. But at the very least even in the absence of rivalries for the Blue Jays, people like baseball here -and they like it even more when the Blue Jays are winning. No one cares if the Argos win or lose.

The NFL gets brought up but it's a dream of developers not Torontonians. No one attends those games either. The NFL's popularity is based on gambling revenue. No one cares about the games here at all.

In Toronto there are a ton of LGBT sports leagues. Even the football league has less participation than the damned Rugby league.

Because Toronto, despite what history it may have with football had when its demographic was different now does not give a crap about the sport and hasn't for decades now. The league will go on with or without a team in Toronto. It managed for years without a Montreal team, it'll get over the lack of interest in Toronto too.


And honestly why should Torontonians need to apologize for having their own distinct likes and dislikes in this nation. Don't you guys constantly celebrate those "differences" of other places in this country?

Just accept that Toronto is a unique part of Canada and get over it.

Do you honestly think New York cares about some bumf*ck Kansas team or whatnot? They don't. I can't speak for London but having lived in NYC I can honestly tell you New Yorkers don't care one bit about maintaining some sort of national unity through sports or shared cultural institutions. They believe they are the USA period. Or something quite distinct and unconnected to it. You have heard the phrase "flyover" haven't you? It's not supposed to be flattering.

Torontonians don't treat the ROC with the same sort of pointed arrogance. We just don't think very much about it at all.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

That post was a reminder that the Argos became complacent right around the time they peaked in popularity in the 1970s, when they were drawing near-capacity crowds to Exhibition Stadium.

Maybe it was unrealistic to expect that to continue as competition in the marketplace grew with the addition of new teams, but it is really shameful to see how far the team was allowed to slide over the 20 years from, say, 1975 to 1995. From packed houses and front-page news to oceans of empty seats and back-page articles.

You know, even if people in Toronto were slightly more prone to following shiny objects and coloured lights that hypnotize than other Canadians, it probably would have been a good idea for the CFL to market itself as a ''shinier'' brand. It's human nature after all and in the end catering to it might have made the CFL stronger in Toronto but across the country as well.

[Gerrard]

Or maybe certain Canadians on this forum could just examine their own insecurities rather than toss around regional insults? Oh but not whining would be un-Canadian I suppose.

Toronto could BUY the next 10 Grey Cups and there'd still be lackluster interest in the sport. Again, it's the SPORT, not the league.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Gerrard

Just accept that Toronto is a unique part of Canada and get over it.

Do you honestly think New York cares about some bumf*ck Kansas team or whatnot? They don't. I can't speak for London but having lived in NYC I can honestly tell you New Yorkers don't care one bit about maintaining some sort of national unity through sports or shared cultural institutions. They believe they are the USA period. Or something quite distinct and unconnected to it. You have heard the phrase "flyover" haven't you? It's not supposed to be flattering.

Torontonians don't treat the ROC with the same sort of pointed arrogance. We just don't think very much about it at all.

But you guys DO care deeply about sports or shared cultural institutions. We all know that Toronto loves to slobber all over its teams when the US media is paying attention.

The best possible thing that could happen to the Argos would be for the American media to start paying more attention to the CFL.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Gerrard

Or maybe certain Canadians on this forum could just examine their own insecurities rather than toss around regional insults? Oh but not whining would be un-Canadian I suppose.

Are the regional insults you threw around a few minutes ago included in the above post?

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by esquire

Are the regional insults you threw around a few minutes ago included in the above post?

Wow you're a really sensitive guy if you think anything in my post above contained one regional insult.

List one please.