Metro Vancouver Bike/Pedestrian Discussion

[IanS]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I like it. The city has been doing pretty well for pedestrians over the last few decades. I'm still in awe over that huge sidewalk on the Cambie bridge, and we all owe Rick Hansen a huge debt of thanks for making accessibility a priority. But having a formalized group to advocate the pedestrian agenda should help to improve things even more.

Sounds to me like one more reason to love this city.

I'm primarily a pedestrian and I'm uncertain as to the purpose of such a formalized group. Perhaps I missed the memo, but I'm also uncertain as to the "pedestrian agenda".

What am I missing?

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by tybuilding

[B]So the bike lanes are to blame for traffic backing up on Georgia Street, a street with no separated bike paths??? Doesn't make a good case here.

People refer to both viaducts interchangeably as the "Georgia Viaduct" - so it should be read with a grain of salt. Even traffic reporters do so.
i.e. the same way people used to refer to International Village Mall as "Tinseltown" (the name of the former movie theatre located there).

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by Porfiry

Billionaires who cycle for sport have nothing in common with the daily urban rider. It's sure nice to be rich enough to shut down a highway just for a ride, but that doesn't mean anything to the normal everyday cyclist who just wants to get around safely.

My point exactly. Maybe he does ride everyday do work at the development company, we don't know. We do know that members of the current council do ride to work everyday so give them credit that they then have an understanding of the issues faced when cycling. A couple of weeks ago I had a link to a presentation by Mia Burke who helped transform Portand into one of the leading cities in North America for cycling. She mentioned in her book how important it is for there to be people in the government positions (mayor, council) and especially engineering staff who ride regularly so they know what issues are faced.

If you think about it if everyone on the city staff only ever drove to work or for errands how good would they be at taking on issues for pedestrians/transit or cycling? It is good to have a good mix of styles of transportation for city staff as well. So yes there has been a lot of positive change towards cycling the last few years because there are avid cycle commuters now in the government, but is it not just playing catch up after possibly a long time of not any?

[hazel]

Originally Posted by Porfiry

Billionaires who cycle for sport have nothing in common with the daily urban rider. It's sure nice to be rich enough to shut down a highway just for a ride, but that doesn't mean anything to the normal everyday cyclist who just wants to get around safely.

Must be nice to know the NDP's Anthem off by heart:

"eat the rich"

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by hazel

Must be nice to know the NDP's Anthem off by heart:

"eat the rich"

I believe you are missing the point, the point is that recreational sport riders that typically ride shoulders and go large distances are very different cyclists than those wanting to go from point A to point B safely through downtown.

What Vancouver is aiming to do is to increase modal share of pedestrians and cycling by providing facilities that achieve a higher standard of safety and one that is preferred most. This type of facility is very typical among cities that do have a much higher modal share.

Vancouver has recognized that modal shares are shifting towards transit/pedestrian/cycling and that to add capacity going to and in downtown they will need to provide something other than private vehicle access which has no more physical space to add additional capacity. The number of trips in and to downtown are increasing but at the same time vehicular trips into downtown have actually dropped 10% since the 1990's. Hopefully this trend will continue.

Only 2 streets in all of downtown have one lane each dedicated protected cyclist facilities. The rest are either shared streets or bike lanes where vehicles can easily cross or block or not a cycling facility.

[crazyjoeda]

Attitudes about cycle commuting need to change and that could take along time, but if the infrastructure isn't built than nothing will change. How many people would drive cars if no safe roads were ever built? I think to judge the success of the new bike lanes will take at least 5-10 years. It appears that some problems exist and they need to be fixed. I spent a week in Copenhagen last September a city with separated bike lanes everywhere and in the city centre bikes out numbered cars 2:1, so there is no reason the same can't be done in Vancouver it will just take time.

Also...
I watched a story on Global news last night and the owner of the Tim Hortons claimed the bike lanes have cost him $50,000 a month in lost business. That seems highly unbelievable. I'm sure it had some impact but I would have thought most patrons would be pedestrian traffic.

[racc]

Originally Posted by crazyjoeda

Also...
I watched a story on Global news last night and the owner of the Tim Hortons claimed the bike lanes have cost him $50,000 a month in lost business. That seems highly unbelievable. I'm sure it had some impact but I would have thought most patrons would be pedestrian traffic.

Or is it the increase in on-street parking on Seymour since the buses are back on Granville that is hurting his business. I suspect not but it is as good a theory as blaming his problems on the bike lane. The one illegal parking space in front of Tim's now contains 20-30 bicycles. He should be happy. The Bean Around the World on Commercial supported the first bike corral in Vancouver. One car parking space was replaced by 10-20 bike parking spaces and they are often quite full.

[whatnext]

From today's Province:

Potential rival pedalling straight at mayor

Does Vancouver Mayor Gregor Robertson finally have a political opponent to fear in the coming civic elections? And does that opponent have a politically saleable issue that sums up what's wrong with the current city hall crew?

Well, colourful Vancouver developer Rob Macdonald can say yes to both questions.

Macdonald is a free-enterpriser who believes the apparent dirty tricks used by Robertson and his centre-left Vision Vancouver team in bringing in the new downtown bike lanes may well be as damaging to them as the perceived harmonizedsales-tax deception was to Gordon Campbell and his B.C. Liberals...

...The 54-year-old Macdonald, owner of the St. Regis Hotel on Dunsmuir Street and donor to various political parties over the years, has considerable street cred, as they say, over this nerve political issue.

An avid cyclist, he's one of the founding sponsors of the RBC Gran-Fondo bike race to Whistler, which he hopes will one day become as big as the Sun Run.

Indeed, Macdonald's blistering attack on the bike lanes in a Vancouver Sun column -he called them a "disaster" -has clearly set the cat among the pigeons, or chickens, at city hall.

However, it drew only a muted response Thursday from Vision Vancouver Coun. Geoff Meggs, to whose re-election campaign Macdonald recently contributed...

...But what really riles him about the bike lanes?

Well, first, he says there was little or no consultation.

Second, he considers them "absolutely unsafe," noting there have been five serious bike accidents in front of the St. Regis since they were put in -whereas, before, there had been no accidents for years.

Third, Macdonald believes city hall is massaging the numbers of cyclists actually using them. (Meggs, ­however, says these comments are unfair to city staff.)

Fourth, the new lanes have caused enormous suffering to downtown business people. They are, Macdonald claims, the product of "radical environmentalists," the same kind of folks who organize the lawless Critical Mass bike protests.

"Unfortunately," he added, "this crowd appears to have the current mayor's support". Ouch...

Full article here:
http://www.theprovince.com/travel/Po...732/story.html

[dreambrother808]

MacDonald's obviously trying to be the Rob Ford of Vancouver in respect to this issue. It won't work here though. That kind of thinking appeals more to the suburbs, and unlike Toronto, thankfully, we are not an amalgamated metro.

[Prometheus]

Here is the story on how Robertson's bike lanes are destroying businesses and increasing accidents:

• Video Link

[tybuilding]

Interesting accident, I would say the cyclist had plenty of time and should of seen the vehicle in that case. If it was a bike lane and parked cars the vehicle probably would of pulled in front of the cyclist and slowed down to turn. The cyclist still could of not noticed the vehicle slowing down and may still have run into the back end.

[aberdeen5698]

From the video it's pretty clear that the driver is at fault, but it also looks to me like the cyclist could have avoided the collision if he had been a little more on the ball.

What the bike lanes do is to remove the dangers that cyclists CAN'T control such as being sideswiped from behind or being doored by someone getting out of their car. And while it doesn't eliminate intersection hazards, a prudent cyclist can usually avoid those.

I saw a video on You-Tube that was a compendium of bicycle collisions from traffic cameras at intersections China. I think every cyclist should watch something like that to gain a healthy respect for intersections.

[racc]

It is a pretty ridiculous story that Global did. They never challenged any of the people interviewed on anything. The right hook collision would have still occurred if there was a painted bike lane there. By law, the driver should have yielded to the cyclist. It is puzzling why Global seems to condone illegal behaviour by blaming the bike lane instead of the driver. Cycling traffic on Dunsmuir has increased dramatically so it is not surprising that there are more collisions as there are more cyclists.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by racc

It is a pretty ridiculous story that Global did. They never challenged any of the people interviewed on anything. The right hook collision would have still occurred if there was a painted bike lane there. By law, the driver should have yielded to the cyclist. It is puzzling why Global seems to condone illegal behaviour by blaming the bike lane instead of the driver. Cycling traffic on Dunsmuir has increased dramatically so it is not surprising that there are more collisions as there are more cyclists.

Agreed. They didn't bother to present any alternate points of view at all.

The driver didn't even bother to look before he crossed the bike lane.

[racc]

Originally Posted by IanS

I'm primarily a pedestrian and I'm uncertain as to the purpose of such a formalized group. Perhaps I missed the memo, but I'm also uncertain as to the "pedestrian agenda".

What am I missing?

Well, it would be great to have no pedestrian fatalities or serious injuries.

[madmigs]

$50,000 per month lost at the tim horton's? All that from a few on street parking spots removed from in front of the store? Parking stalls don't turnover that fast. And compared to when? Not to mention I doubt anyone would have driven to a non-drive-thru timmy's for lunch or during the day seeing as it only had a few spots available in front of it which odds are would have already been occupied. I would have thought most traffic to fast food restaurants downtown that are nestled among the office and residential towers would be walk-ins.

And now if people get dropped off/picked up in front of hotel there is only 1 through lane? So if before the bike lane there was parking stalls in its place, how is the current situation any different than before? Or for some odd reason was the hotel loading zone across the street from the hotel before and it got displaced by the bike lane? Confused...

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by madmigs

$50,000 per month lost at the tim horton's? All that from a few on street parking spots removed from in front of the store? Parking stalls don't turnover that fast.

It does not take too much imagination (or math skills) to see how the lost parking along the block could easily cost his business $50,000 per month:

1) Most people who visit Tim Horton's get take-out and spend no more than a few minutes in the store.

2) It is perfectly conceivable that ten people per half hour could find parking somewhere along the block (but for the bike lane).

3) That's 20 people per hour.

4) Let's say the average order is $7.

5) Let's presume only a 12-hour business day.

6) Given a 30-day month, that amounts to $50,400 per month.

I am sorry that your devotion to bike lanes is so zealous that it makes you indifferent to the destruction of a man's business and the loss of people's jobs.

A truly livable city is first and foremost one in which a person can earn a living, i.e., one in which entrepreneurs can flourish, workers can find jobs, people can prosper and support themselves and their families.

Your bike lanes are having the opposite effect, and you dismiss those who bring this to your attention.

[IanS]

Originally Posted by racc

Well, it would be great to have no pedestrian fatalities or serious injuries.

Oh, sure. As a pedestrian, I'm all for that. Is that a pedestrian agenda? Or just a general traffic safety agenda? And why do we suddenly need a separate pedestrian organization to address it?

My guess is that this is a Vision effort to enlarge their anti-car tent. That's just speculation though.

[racc]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

It does not take too much imagination (or math skills) to see how the lost parking along the block could easily cost his business $50,000 per month:

Except that parking was added to Seymour when the buses went back to Granville. There is more parking near the Tim's on Dunsmuir than there was before. Maybe it is this the additional car parking that is causing the loss of business. Yes, probably not but it makes just about as much sense as blaming it on the bike lane.

It is more likely the HST. Funny that in the same edition where Jon Ferry bashes the bike lane, the editorial was on how the restaurant industry is suffering all over the province.

Or it could be that the buses moving back to Granville decreased walk by traffic.

People who are anti-bike lane are really grasping at straws. How about some critical thinking and logical arguments for a change.

[dreambrother808]

I think it's a complex issue that requires study. As racc has pointed out, other factors are involved as well. Any kind of scientific analysis requires dealing with all of those variables before coming to a more objective conclusion.

If there are other alternative routes for bike lanes, then those are valid considerations. However, I take great issue with those who seem to think that motor vehicles have some kind of god-given entitlement to every square inch of road. Bicycles are not infringing upon your "rights". They belong there as well. A few extra minutes here and there or the greater awareness required so as to not turn in front if a bike lane without looking are not such onerous demands to be placed upon you. These are not YOUR roads. They are OUR roads. Learning to share, as it was in kindergarten, is the only answer. Expecting cyclists to make all the sacrifices with regard to their own safety, etc, just so that you can go along comfortably with no changes to the status quo is not an option.