Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[TheGeographer]

Originally Posted by Comrade

If you go by exhibition size, Salt Lake isn't that far down, tho.

True, that’s a better metric to go by than total sq footage

[ajiuO]

The salt palace needs to have continuous floor space. Ripping down that part would take away a huge portion of that continuous space. FanX and other conventions actually use that space.

Besides needing to maintain the current space, we also need space for expansion. Some conventions use the LDS parking lot for expansions. That isn’t going to be possible when the LDS church builds its BYU campus.


The city should re-zone the parking lot block to only allowed a sports arena, and then offer to buy that block and the triad center from the church… then when they tear the old Delta center down, they can use that land to expand the salt palace. That way we can keep and attract conventions.

The church should just build that BYU campus somewhere else. That isn’t going to do anything positive for downtown by having it there, assuming they even build it within the next 50 years… and the triad center has been ugly and outdated since the day they built it. Thankfully, they never built all those 30 and 40 story buildings that we’re gonna look similar.

[rockies]

My 2 cents. Why don't they give the western wing to arena development and vertically expand along S Temple and potentially along 200S (like Seattle, as mentioned by someone else). We lose the art museum though

[bob rulz]

The Salt Palace is definitely a sticky thorn in the side of west-side downtown development. It's vital for downtown activity, but its design actively discourages pedestrian engagement and connectivity. I hope something is done with it at some point. Exactly what that would be, I don't have any stake in that yet.

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Macys announced they are closing 150 stores. They didn’t give a list… but I bet City Creek Center will be on that list. The last time I went in there the merchandise was very sparse, which isn’t a good sign.

If it closes, I wonder what the mall will do with that huge space.

I'm kind of amazed Macy's is still around. They're consistently one of the worst clothes shopping experiences whenever I make the mistake of going in there.

Originally Posted by Comrade

Good. I've hated this building with a white hot passion ever since it went up:



It's ugly. It's suburban. That corner should not have a one-story low-density bank located there.

One of the worst buildings downtown for sure.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by rockies

My 2 cents. Why don't they give the western wing to arena development and vertically expand along S Temple and potentially along 200S (like Seattle, as mentioned by someone else). We lose the art museum though

There are a couple of problems with going vertical.

1) It couldn’t be done as an expansion. You can’t just add a second story of large convention space on top of what’s there. The building was not designed for that. It would have to be a complete rebuild.

2) You couldn’t offer as much continuous convention space. Eliminating the large continuous space and replacing it with smaller stacked spaces is not going to be conducive to large scale conventions. I predict that if the city reduces the continuous space that we will loose ODR and likely end up with a way downscaled version of FanX. And if salt lake no longer has a continuous space that is better then what Southtown has to offer we could even end up loosing FanX… Splitting the salt palace up into smaller spaces is not the answer.

The Triad Center block would be a much better option… although I’m sure people would freak out about The Devereaux House. I’m not sure how feasible it would be to move that.

Here is one idea… I’m sure “the church” would kill anything like this though…,

[taboubak]

Originally Posted by rockies

My 2 cents. Why don't they give the western wing to arena development and vertically expand along S Temple and potentially along 200S (like Seattle, as mentioned by someone else). We lose the art museum though

That's not the Art Museum that is Abravannel Hall and it is absolutely not going anywhere. It is an incredible venue for the Symphony.

[meman]

I was at the Macys store at City Creek Center and it was confirmed to me that Macys is NOT closing.

I disagree with you Bob Rulz about Macys, it is one of my favorite places to shop!!

[downtownslcresident]

What if a rebuilt salt palace played out like this:

Keep the delta center on the existing block, relocate the jazz to play at the huntsman center for a couple years during the rebuild.

Simultaneously, redesign the next phases of West Quarter to incorporate an expansion of the Salt Palace on the ground level, and then maintain everything already included in the plans for West Quarter above the exhibition space expansion. This is an overall net increase in exhibition space that will temporarily allow for the rest of the exhibition space to be redesigned and rebuilt.

Then, tear down the south block of the existing exhibition space and rebuild it to be multi level continuous exhibition space.

Once the south block reopens, do the same thing for the north block so that now there are two levels of continuous exhibition space cover the north and south blocks of the Salt Palace.

Once the rebuilt north and south blocks are completed and opened, tear down the west block of the salt palace (because of the original expansion to west quarter, there’s no loss to overall exhibition space and an increase in total available continuous exhibition space) and rebuild that block as the sports entertainment district that is desired. This could even include additional exhibition space on a portion or upper levels of the development.

It’s a decade long plan, but it could go a long way to checking all the boxes and securing the financing for west quarter to guarantee that project finishes as planned.

[rockies]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

There are a couple of problems with going vertical.

1) It couldn’t be done as an expansion. You can’t just add a second story of large convention space on top of what’s there. The building was not designed for that. It would have to be a complete rebuild.

2) You couldn’t offer as much continuous convention space. Eliminating the large continuous space and replacing it with smaller stacked spaces is not going to be conducive to large scale conventions. I predict that if the city reduces the continuous space that we will loose ODR and likely end up with a way downscaled version of FanX. And if salt lake no longer has a continuous space that is better then what Southtown has to offer we could even end up loosing FanX… Splitting the salt palace up into smaller spaces is not the answer.

Yes, probably a full rebuild required in any case. Maybe it could be phased in a way that large swaths could remain open. I think, if they were to take over the museum/symphony hall, they could package it in a way you do not eat into large open spaces as much with additional smaller spaces on higher floors. Not advocating for the demolition of those institutions either I'm just not very familiar with them and brainstorming. In summary, I guess I would like to see a rebuilt convention center with more massing along the major streets and more flexible/vertical spaces but maintaining most of the current footprint.

I went down a rabbit hole yesterday trying to see if any cities in the US have two county-owned convention centers in a downtown area but logically there are none. I was imagining they could always build a smaller, more space efficient convention center a block or so away where there is more room as some convention centers do have non-contiguous buildings (though not as far as SLC would have to). So I think really the only thing that could occur is an eventual rebuild or continued remodel of what they have today

[TRex]

Originally Posted by rockies

We turn everything into a megaproject here but a new arena + convention center combo would be so good. too good even. I would be interested in that article if you remember

If the rumor is true, are the jazz just going to play at huntsman center for a few seasons? Maybe they are building the arena where the west convention center is so that delta center can remain operational during construction

https://www.ksl.com/article/50887025...t-taxpayers-1b

'A dramatic change of the landscape downtown'

Legislative leaders didn't pinpoint a downtown location for a potential hockey arena, saying that Smith Entertainment Group and Salt Lake City would have to work that out. But they did suggest it could be near the Delta Center.

"If you look at where the Delta Center is now and what's around the Delta Center, and you look at opportunities around the Delta Center to make improvements, I think you can pretty quickly see how downtown kind of stops at the convention center. It blocks the west side," McCay said.

That would mean tearing down or repurposing existing buildings. McCay said a lot would need to change in that area for it to function like, for example, the Staples Center or SoFi Stadium in Los Angeles.

[ucsbgaucho]

Originally Posted by TRex

https://www.ksl.com/article/50887025...t-taxpayers-1b

'A dramatic change of the landscape downtown'

Legislative leaders didn't pinpoint a downtown location for a potential hockey arena, saying that Smith Entertainment Group and Salt Lake City would have to work that out. But they did suggest it could be near the Delta Center.

"If you look at where the Delta Center is now and what's around the Delta Center, and you look at opportunities around the Delta Center to make improvements, I think you can pretty quickly see how downtown kind of stops at the convention center. It blocks the west side," McCay said.

That would mean tearing down or repurposing existing buildings. McCay said a lot would need to change in that area for it to function like, for example, the Staples Center or SoFi Stadium in Los Angeles.

I like how they bring up SoFi stadium, are they trying to imply SoFi is a "downtown" stadium? It's 11 miles from downtown LA, built on a former horse racing track, in the middle of a residential area.... that seems more like what the MLB group is doing.

[ucsbgaucho]

Originally Posted by rockies

Yes, probably a full rebuild required in any case. Maybe it could be phased in a way that large swaths could remain open. I think, if they were to take over the museum/symphony hall, they could package it in a way you do not eat into large open spaces as much with additional smaller spaces on higher floors. Not advocating for the demolition of those institutions either I'm just not very familiar with them and brainstorming. In summary, I guess I would like to see a rebuilt convention center with more massing along the major streets and more flexible/vertical spaces but maintaining most of the current footprint.

I went down a rabbit hole yesterday trying to see if any cities in the US have two county-owned convention centers in a downtown area but logically there are none. I was imagining they could always build a smaller, more space efficient convention center a block or so away where there is more room as some convention centers do have non-contiguous buildings (though not as far as SLC would have to). So I think really the only thing that could occur is an eventual rebuild or continued remodel of what they have today

Walter Washington Convention Center in DC has 703,000 sq feet of exhibit space and 2.3 million sq feet of total space. Salt Palace has 515,000 and 679,000 respectively.

Here's WWCC overlayed on the Salt Palace site. With a smaller footprint than the Salt Palace, you have over 3 times the total space. I was just at WWCC a couple months ago, it's huge. Four levels I believe, including a subterranean level with full size exhibit hall and a second full-size hall one floor above street level.

[airhero]

Originally Posted by ucsbgaucho

Walter Washington Convention Center in DC has 703,000 sq feet of exhibit space and 2.3 million sq feet of total space. Salt Palace has 515,000 and 679,000 respectively.

Here's WWCC overlayed on the Salt Palace site. With a smaller footprint than the Salt Palace, you have over 3 times the total space. I was just at WWCC a couple months ago, it's huge. Four levels I believe, including a subterranean level with full size exhibit hall and a second full-size hall one floor above street level.

Yeah same thing for the Pennsylvania Convention Center. Similar occupied area as the 2 Salt Lake blocks, slightly more contiguous exhibit space than current Salt Lake space. Unfortunately we are constrained by Abravanel Hall and now the Convention Center Hotel, but you could possibly get a similar amount of contiguous exhibit hall as currently exists with a complete rebuild, putting the large hall on an upper floor. And more exhibit space could be added to other floors, bringing up the total, though your contiguous space would be more or less permanently constrained from expansion. One example of how this could work is below:



I'm estimating ~510,000 sq ft of contiguous exhibit space. I could be way off though. I could also be underestimated how much loading dock space is needed and how much "public concourse" is desired. I'm probably also forgetting something major. But I love this potential idea because it creates lots of new development area, brings 200 West back up to grade and uncovers it, and resurrects the missing section of 100 South, running under the exhibit hall. Car traffic has survived just fine without the connection so it could be a simple pedestrian connection with some sort of interesting design, and perhaps some activation. I'm envisioning the pedestrian street traversing through the center of the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam but that's really dreaming (and probably impossible).

You'd need a ramp up to the loading docks. Ideally this ramp would be somewhere on the two blocks but if it leaves too little space for loading docks you could spare a segment on the west block for the ramp. The exhibit halls may be somewhat of an odd shape, but that's true in the current situation. The main area in the middle could be divided into east/west sections if needed by putting stairs coming up from another floor on the west side of them (I believe this is currently an orientation in the Colorado Convention Center, where there are stairwells abutting the loading docks, serving as entry to smaller partitions).

The future hotel sites remain the same with a potential skybridge connection to one of them over West Temple.

If more space is needed, there could be a scenario in which there is a road diet of West Temple, with a decrease in right-of-way of up to 50 feet, creating new land for the convention center. You could also potentially build the exhibit floor over the sidewalk, but that could get ugly (though it is the case for the Pennsylvania Convention Center on the side of the loading docks). I estimate these two things could increase total space on the exhibit hall floor by over 50,000 square feet.

Anyway, this may all be a moot point if what Makid says is true and no changes to the convention center are being considered. Also, it would be very expensive to rebuild. But I can dream, as others have.

[rockies]

ucsbguacho, that is a really good example of a more space efficient convention center and the design is more attractive than the salt palace imo. I like how it bridges over the roads instead of creating underpasses.

Originally Posted by airhero

Anyway, this may all be a moot point if what Makid says is true and no changes to the convention center are being considered. Also, it would be very expensive to rebuild. But I can dream, as others have.

Hahaha this is probably the case but regardless it is interesting to reimagine the convention center. Many cities seem to have very modern convention centers so surely there is some sort of precedent for it. If they wants to remain competitive they should probably rebuild or significantly remodel even if that is in the distant future.

If the church is playing ball then it will probably stay the same for a while longer. It will be kind of funny if they build a sports and bar district on what was allegedly to become 'the mountain of the lord' holy land

[Makid]

The biggest issue regarding the Convention Center is the future booked conventions. There are conventions that are booked out nearly 10 years already. Many of them need the large exhibit space. A lot of these future booked conventions/meetings are also new to the market and were waiting for the CCH to be constructed. The impacts of the conventions already booked out over the next 10 years is a few billion dollars based on similar convention/meeting attendee impacts. We would definitely want to limit the impact to the convention business.

This means that for any real impact to the current spacing, new space would need to be added before any demolition occurs.

The space can be added fairly easily but would involve expanding the southern most section west, across 2nd west and into Phase 2 of the West Quarter. The County has already provided funds for 1,000 parking spaces as part of the project, it would be possible to provide additional funds to include an expansion of the Convention Center to this area.

This would allow for a reduction of the current convention center on the block east of the Delta Center.

[delts145]

I think the CC is set comfortably in size for the immediate future. However, that's immediate and immediate seems to be shortening by the day. Pressure to give everything between West Temple and 400 West a shovel-ready redevelopment status is demanding some concrete planning, much of which needs to be scheduled in time to be completed before 2034. I agree with Makid that any redevelopment of the Salt Palace before the Olympics will have to involve careful planning so as not to disturb currently booked conventions. I do think there are ways to redevelop and add density to the CC without having to interrupt conventions. If others like Denver can do it with its recent massive upgrade then so can Salt Lake City. I think the upcoming demands being placed on the CC and its western surroundings up to Gateway will give planners no choice but to speed up their planning process. It's like the airport, which has moved up its proposals and construction several times over because of demand outpacing previous suppositions. When a huge presence like Delta keeps upgrading its love of SLC the airport powers that be have no choice but to react. When they do start to tweak the CC's footprint they will probably look at Convention Centers like Denver as excellent examples of major recent upgrades. If you haven't already, check out Denver's now completed major expansion of its convention center. I think what Denver accomplished and how they did it would be a worthy example of the next step forward for Salt Lake's CC.

As with Denver and as was pointed out with Washington D.C. CC redevelopment, upward and probably subterranean for Salt Lake's CC is a given. I think The West Quarter is probably already rethinking and upgrading their future phases. They would be crazy to pass up on what seems to be happening over the next 5 to 10 years. The combination of the Millers, Smiths, and the L.D.S. Church gathering in their clout and financial connections is Manhattan or Los Angeles caliber investment seduction.

Denver's CC Expansion - Highlights of this project include: The expansion of the Colorado Convention Center including a new 80,000-square-foot column-free multipurpose room and outdoor rooftop terrace with sweeping views of the city skyline and mountains. The project will be the largest ballroom in Colorado and expand one of the largest buildings in Denver. On the ground floor, there will be lobby renovations and seamless integration with the existing building, while offering attendees safe and easy access to an additional 150,000 square feet of meeting space, 600,000 square feet of exhibit space, and a 5,000-seat Bellco Theatre.

Project members include project manager ASM Global, lead contractor Hensel Phelps Construction, and design team TVS Design.

When complete, the expansion will generate an additional $85 million in annual economic impact. The project is anticipated to be completed in late 2023 and will continue to operate during construction.

This was the former site of Diamond Lil's. Does anyone know if this 2020 previously proposed project is now actually under construction? If it has a name maybe we could find a rendering. The several-year-old description below would indicate that the plans were for a multi-use residential.

Originally Posted by Paniolo Man

1528 North Temple (Immediately West of SPARK!):

Photo By Paniolo Man

Here's the closest definitive info. I could find on LoopNet. Perhaps with the announcements of the Power Station's upcoming development this project has the green light.

PROPERTY FACTS
Property Type Land
Property Subtype Residential
Total Lot Size 2.47 AC

DESCRIPTION
The existing Developer, a partnership between Henderson Development and Forum Real Estate Group, is seeking an Opportunity Zone Fund to invest in a development project that is ripe for success. The Developer owns the land, currently zoned for a dense Transit-Oriented Development, and has engaged its design team to create a concept plan that is the basis of the financial model reflected in this Offering Memorandum. The Developer has significant historical experience in developing, owning and operating Multi-Family assets nationally as well as transforming SLC’s North Temple Corridor, with two stabilized assets along the corridor complete and an additional new development currently under construction. Over the next six months, the Developer will advance the design of the project and take the building through the approval process, targeting a closing of construction debt and Opportunity Zone equity by mid-year 2020.

.

[airhero]

Originally Posted by Makid

The biggest issue regarding the Convention Center is the future booked conventions. There are conventions that are booked out nearly 10 years already. Many of them need the large exhibit space. A lot of these future booked conventions/meetings are also new to the market and were waiting for the CCH to be constructed. The impacts of the conventions already booked out over the next 10 years is a few billion dollars based on similar convention/meeting attendee impacts. We would definitely want to limit the impact to the convention business.

This means that for any real impact to the current spacing, new space would need to be added before any demolition occurs.

The space can be added fairly easily but would involve expanding the southern most section west, across 2nd west and into Phase 2 of the West Quarter. The County has already provided funds for 1,000 parking spaces as part of the project, it would be possible to provide additional funds to include an expansion of the Convention Center to this area.

This would allow for a reduction of the current convention center on the block east of the Delta Center.

Actually that could work quite well. Maintaining 500,000 sq ft of exhibit space during a rebuild could be surprisingly easy if the south half of block 67 is available to work with, either as a temporary or permanent solution, and assuming the Radisson and Fidelity building are coming down.

You could expand halls 4 and 5 onto the Fidelity and Radisson sites for an extra ~120,000 sq ft of convention space. You could also (temporarily) close 200 West from south temple to 100 S to expand halls 2 and 3 to the north and south. This would net another ~45,000 sq ft for a total of around 165,000 sq ft. This is more than enough to decommission Halls E, D, C, tear them down, and rebuild on that site, spanning over 200 West, and on the entire southern half of block 67. All the exhibit space would be on an upper floor. A new foyer, grand ballroom, and meeting space enough to replace existing space would be built on a lower floor, with a temporary connection to the old convention space still being used. Accounting for a ramp and loading docks, and parts of the foyer spanning all floors this could amount to up to 400,000 sq ft of new, contiguous exhibit hall space. Maybe closer to 350,000.

Then the portion of the convention center with the old ballroom, foyer, and some meeting space would be torn down to start constructing the new 100 South connection and expand the new halls on the upper floor, amounting to well over 100,000 sq ft of additional exhibit space. At that point the new convention center would have enough contiguous exhibit space to host currently planned conventions. From there you could do whatever you want with the remaining old convention center, including tearing down the west block for redevelopment, reopening 200 W at grade, finishing the 100 South connection, and building more meeting and exhibit space, including additional contiguous space on the upper floor.

Of course I'm probably being overly optimistic. There would likely need to be more phases and far more logistical challenges than I'm envisioning and I'm sure any temporary exhibit hall space used to replace E, D, and C would need to be partitionable and approximately the same size and shape as the old halls, but I'm sure there is a way. This could definitely be done if a rebuild is in the cards.

[airhero]

Okay. Did I figure it out? Probably not. But here is a potentially workable temporary solution for the convention center if an onsite rebuild occurs:



It preserves all meeting space size and the size and relative locations of all the halls. The shapes are pretty different though. Not sure if that would be a problem.

Phase 1: Close South Temple eastbound between 300 W and 200 W and reroute all non-construction, non-loading traffic elsewhere. TRAX would remain fully operational. Build new halls E and D with upper floors replacing meeting space to be torn down. Build mezzanine above exhibit halls as it is in Halls 4 and 5 currently. Open new meeting space.

Phase 2: Tear down old meeting space on South Temple. Close 200 W between South Temple and 100 South and South Temple eastbound between 200 W and W Temple to general traffic. Build northern half of new hall C and part of new hall B. Build new portion of upper mezzanine above these halls, replacing the old one so it can be torn down to make way for the rest of new hall B and C construction.

Phase 3: Tear down old mezzanine and finish constructing new halls B and C. Cut new loading dock access into the northern part of Hall 1.

Phase 4: Close southern loading access to Hall 1 and build connection between Hall 2 and Hall A. Hall A now becomes Hall 1, and Hall 1 becomes Hall A to maintain proper connections between halls that may have been booked together. (Halls A and 1 have equal square footage). Loading docks on the north side would be properly finished. New halls can now be used for booked conventions and old halls B-E can be decommissioned and torn down to make room for reconstruction.

I have no clue if I made the loading area wide enough but I made halls C and B too big so it could be widened a little more from what appears in the drawing. In any case, could be workable but tighter than desired.

[chad.farnes]

I think that developing the parking lot to the northeast of the Delta Center could work well in the LDS church's favor. The temple would serve from better sight lines. Theres no good place downtown that you can view the temple from a short distance in which it is well framed by other buildings around it. Think about St Peters Basilica in Rome or any of the major monuments in DC. Each of those has an emotionally visual experience for pedestrians as a result of the view that you can have of each of those buildings/structures as you are approaching it.

The problem with the temple is that it struggles with those sight lines as a result of being in the middle of the block. Regents Street in City Creek is somewhat an attempt at that, but it is quite short. A Avenue is really the best example of it, but no one really travels on A Avenue (its technically not downtown).

My thought is that there should be a midblock street/pedestrian pathway that extends all the way from the temple to the Folsom Trail. This could connect with the Delta Center with a diagonal street. Also if the western part of the Salt Palace (the block next to the Delta Center) were redone, it could easily connect with that with a north/south midblock pathway.

One nice thing about this is that it could be done without demolishing any buildings, simply retrofitting the Triad Center. All that would need to be changed is the large archway that serves as an entryway to the Triad Center would be changed into a public walkway.

I think it could be a cool part of an entertainment district and would potentially give people a reason to wander to Temple Square. It would provide a visually stunning view of the temple (even with the tabernacle in front of it) that could facilitate the LDS Church's goal of proselytizing. And most important is that it would get rid of a dumb parking lot and create some interesting pedestrian pathways in SLC (there are no diagonal walkways across any blocks in SLC)

Lines in red would be streets or pedestrian walkways.

[ucsbgaucho]

Here's my thoughts... New CC will have two levels, lower level is street-facing retail/dining and rear CC meeting/ballroom space. Keep loading in the same place. Upper floor is continuous exhibit space along W Temple and S Temple. You close off 200W completely from 100S to N Temple. New multi-level parking garage on the the 200W/100S corner, and those streets becomes one-way in that space for easier ingress/egress from garage. You add street-facing retail/dining also on south side of CC next to the CCH. You build the new Delta Center on the parking lot, with dining/retail/etnertainment directly east of that, plus space for a 2nd CCH that could also be used as team hotel for visiting teams. S Temple is closed off to car traffic completely on game days to encourage foot traffic across to the dining/entertainment areas. You rebuild the old DC site into the main dining/entertainment district with below-ground parking. Cross-corner skybridge to new DC with 2nd-level entrance to the arena. Skybridges to CC and over to Gateway with new dining/retail on 400W. Also skybridge from CC across S Temple to 2nd CCH.

Basic idea; get rid of the "convention center is just a wall to the street" template that plagues so many cities. Put ground level retail/dining all along the North, West and South sides of the CC, keep main lobby where it is. Put the new arena on the parking lot and build a big cool dining/entertainment district on the old DC site. Save space for a 2nd main CCH, surround it all with dining/retail/entertainment options. Build skybridges where possible to ease foot traffic and lessen impact on car traffic.