CHICAGO: ORD & MDW discussion - Page 86

left of center · #1 Posted **Feb 28, 2018, 8:46 PM**

^ AA is probably just airing out grievances to the media and the public in order to try to get some concessions in their favor on this deal. I doubt anything here is a deal breaker for them, and this will end up getting signed. Like many have already said, they don't have too many cards in their hand here, and every day they delay brings us one day closer to May.

nomarandlee · #2 Posted **Feb 28, 2018, 9:40 PM**

Don't remember seeing these details in the local papers. Leave it to a Dallas paper to get the details I guess.........

Quote:

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airl...ly-set-intense-scramble-new-gates-routes

.......If Emanuel's administration and the airlines ink a deal, the massive expansion will change the look, feel and operations at O'Hare.

New concourses would be 150 feet wide, dramatically larger than current ones. Terminals 1, 3 and 5 would get architectural upgrades. Passenger amenities would get a boost, with United and American opening 50,000-square-foot club lounges in the new Global Terminal.

"Some of the terminals at O'Hare date back to the dawn of the jet age," said Henry Harteveldt, a San Francisco-based travel industry analyst and president of Atmosphere Research Group. "The concourses choke. Good God. If you're at O'Hare at rush hour, even on a good day, it resembles one of the circles of hell. The city, the passengers flying to and through O'Hare and the airlines serving the airport all deserve a lot better, and they're going to get it."........

"It is enormously important not to let this very old lease -- which is definitely the strongest airline control lease in the national system -- continue," Evans said. "It just was not in the city's interest to let that kind of extreme airline control continue. . In 1983, they gave away the store, gave away the farm."

United and American's stranglehold over O'Hare -- and their frequent infighting -- often ground improvements or investments to a halt, city officials have said. One famous example took place eight years ago, Evans said, when a security checkpoint had to be shut down because a roof on United's terminal was leaking.......

VKChaz · #3 Posted **Mar 7, 2018, 4:01 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomarandlee

Don't remember seeing these details in the local papers. Leave it to a Dallas paper to get the details I guess.........

Interesting article though it is actually from Chicago Tribune wires. Best coverage should be local, but will be interesting to see national business press and aviation trade commentary on the plans and how they unfold

Kngkyle · #4 Posted **Feb 28, 2018, 9:48 PM**

United has responded publicly:

Quote:

United fired back: "It is disingenuous for American to make these claims.

"This was not a secret deal reached at the last minute," an airline spokesman said. "Our agreement with the city for five additional gates was made more than 18 months ago in response to American's deal with city for five additional gates. American has been aware of our agreement for over a year and has worked to block the implementation at every opportunity."

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/28/american...hare-lease-over-secret-united-gates.html

It increasingly seems like a feud between UA and AA that the city had to pick a side on in order to move forward. One party wasn't going to be happy no matter what.

N830MH · #5 Posted **Feb 28, 2018, 11:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kngkyle

It increasingly seems like a feud between UA and AA that the city had to pick a side on in order to move forward. One party wasn't going to be happy no matter what.

Right! No matter what happened. They should accept it and it is time to move forward the O'Hare terminal projects. It's time for change. Both UA & AA must listen to the mayor. If they have an agreement.

left of center · #6 Posted **Mar 1, 2018, 12:44 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kngkyle

United has responded publicly:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/28/american...hare-lease-over-secret-united-gates.html

It increasingly seems like a feud between UA and AA that the city had to pick a side on in order to move forward. One party wasn't going to be happy no matter what.

In that case AA shouldn't be too surprised the city sided with the hometown airline.

the urban politician · #7 Posted **Mar 1, 2018, 5:26 PM**

^ Im not an expert, but your logic here evades me. Why would American de-hub ORD just over a dispute of a few gates? That would be a disastrous business plan for them.

Seems they would be better off sucking it up and instead looking for other ways to gain access to more gates at O'Hare.

F1 Tommy · #8 Posted **Mar 1, 2018, 5:32 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ Im not an expert, but your logic here evades me. Why would American de-hub ORD just over a dispute of a few gates? That would be a disastrous business plan for them.

Seems they would be better off sucking it up and instead looking for other ways to gain access to more gates at O'Hare.

No one will dehub ORD anytime soon. And neither AA or UA will exit ORD ever completely.

the urban politician · #9 Posted **Mar 1, 2018, 6:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1 Tommy

That's not the reason they would dehub. More competition due to more gates is why, just like at all the other US hubs. The present gate fight is a side bar.

Having 2 majors with large nonstop networks fighting for business travelers is better that 1 major with a huge network hub and a bunch of smaller airline hubs with only some non stop routes.

But losing out to competition is something American can control. If it uses its gates, then where should be no problem. What it loses is exclusive control over a large chunk of gates, which was stifling competition. If that was the only way it could compete, then Chicago is probably better off without their dominance. You seem to suggest that Chicago is worse off with more competition.

F1 Tommy · #10 Posted **Mar 1, 2018, 6:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician

But losing out to competition is something American can control. If it uses its gates, then where should be no problem. What it loses is exclusive control over a large chunk of gates, which was stifling competition. If that was the only way it could compete, then Chicago is probably better off without their dominance. You seem to suggest that Chicago is worse off with more competition.

We will just have to wait and see how this plays out. It should be good for the airport and I am very happy it is happening.

Sonofsoma · #11 Posted **Mar 3, 2018, 5:26 AM**

Although it's been reported AA was holding the deal up. I'd put money on it that the source of any last minute snags is entirely the city. More specifically the behind the scenes fighting among the city, county, state, unions et al to get themselves a piece of the action written into it.

United and American, despite their public posturing, LOVE, LOVE, LOVE O'Hare. Unlike single hubs ATL and DFW, the "O'Hare Duopoly" provides most of what little elasticity exists in the entire country. (50+ LAX and 40+ SFO UA/AA flights a day!) The 90-95% load factors necessary to be profitable would be impossible without KORD.

More importantly, UA/AA couldn't care less about who controls a few gates at an expanded O'Hare - as long as the deal keeps Southwest confined to Midway.

Khantilever · #12 Posted **Mar 3, 2018, 5:45 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician

But losing out to competition is something American can control. If it uses its gates, then where should be no problem. What it loses is exclusive control over a large chunk of gates, which was stifling competition. If that was the only way it could compete, then Chicago is probably better off without their dominance. You seem to suggest that Chicago is worse off with more competition.

It's important to keep in mind that, in general, with large hub-and-spoke air carriers we're looking at a case of "natural monopolies" where more competition can indeed make us worse off. Without sufficient control and pricing power it won't be worth it for them to maintain such a large hub. So what we gain in more intense price competition could easily be lost in efficiency.

F1 Tommy · #13 Posted **Mar 3, 2018, 3:39 PM**

I should not do long term speculation. For the foreseeable future we will see 2 trunk airlines with major hubs at ORD. I am sure they don't like having more competition, and adding the extra gates will do that. But for the airport to remain competitive this had to happen. Now ORD can go after ATL for passenger deplaning's and landings. ORD also needs to get those cargo stats back up to where they belong.

Vlajos · #14 Posted **Mar 1, 2018, 5:33 PM**

How much business would American lose by exiting ORD? Seems it would be astronomic and hence virtually outside of reason to do so.

F1 Tommy · #15 Posted **Mar 1, 2018, 5:43 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlajos

How much business would American lose by exiting ORD? Seems it would be astronomic and hence virtually outside of reason to do so.

History does have a way of repeating itself. Chicago could become like all the other US cities that used to have multiple trunk airline hubs.

It's all about their bottom line and profits and control but that will take many years to happen if it ever does.

Kngkyle · #16 Posted **Mar 7, 2018, 6:42 PM**

Someone from Airliners.net compiled this run-down of Summer 2018 international service by carrier, destination, and aircraft type for ORD. I always find this interesting so thought I'd relay it here.

Quote:

Brief overview of changes:

Five new carriers: Bahamasair, Ethiopian Airlines, Norwegian Air Shuttle, Viva Aerobus, and WOW Air

Five new markets: Huatulco, Venice, Addis Ababa, Budapest, Ixtapa (resumption)

One discontinued carrier: AirBerlin (liquidated)

Three discontinued markets: Dusseldorf (AB, announced but never launched), Berlin (AirBerlin), and Shannon (United)

Aer Lingus

International Terminal 5

DUBLIN (DUB) – 14 weekly – Airbus A330-300 (7x), Airbus A330-200 (7x)

AeroMexico

International Terminal 5

GUADALAJARA (GDL) – 13 weekly – Boeing 737-800

MEXICO CITY (MEX) – 21 weekly – Boeing 737-800 w/ Scimitar Winglets

Air Canada

Terminal 2

MONTRÉAL (YUL) – 35 weekly – Embraer RJ175 – Operated by Sky Regional/AC Express

TORONTO (YYZ) – 56 weekly – Embraer RJ190

VANCOUVER (YVR) – 14 weekly – CRJ-900 – Operated by Jazz Aviation

Air France

International Terminal 5

PARIS (CDG) – 7 weekly – Airbus A330-200

Air India

International Terminal 5

DELHI (DEL) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

Alitalia

International Terminal 5

ROME (FCO) – 7 weekly – Airbus A330-200

All Nippon Airways

Arrivals: International Terminal 5; Departures: Terminal 1

TOKYO (HND) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

TOKYO (NRT) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

American Airlines

Arrivals: International Terminal 5 (excluding Preclearance airports), Departures & Preclearance arrivals: Terminal 3

BARCELONA (BCN) – 7 weekly – Boeing 787-8

BEIJING (PEK) – 7 weekly – Boeing 787-8

CANCÚN (CUN) – 14 weekly – Boeing 737-800

DUBLIN (DUB) – 7 weekly – Boeing 787-8

GUATEMALA CITY (GUA) – 1 weekly – Boeing 737-800

LONDON (LHR) – 28 weekly – Boeing 787-8

MANCHESTER (MAN) – 7 weekly – Boeing 787-8

MONTEGO BAY (MBJ) – 1 weekly – Boeing 737-800

PARIS (CDG) – 7 weekly – Boeing 787-8

PUNTA CANA (PUJ) – 1 weekly – Boeing 737-800

ROME (FCO) – 7 weekly – Boeing 787-8

SAN JOSÉ DEL CABO (SJD) – 2 weekly – Boeing 737-800

SHANGHAI (PVG) – 7 weekly – Boeing 787-8

TOKYO (NRT) – 7 weekly – Boeing 787-8

VANCOUVER (YVR) – 7 weekly – Boeing 737-800

American Airlines Operated by Envoy

[i]Terminal 3[/]

CALGARY (YYC) – 7 weekly – Embraer 175

TORONTO (YYZ) – 21 weekly – Embraer 175

TORONTO (YYZ) – 7 weekly – Embraer RJ145

American Airlines Operated by Skywest

Terminal 3

MONTRÉAL (YUL) – 14 weekly – Canadair CRJ-200

TORONTO (YYZ) – 14 weekly – Canadair CRJ-700

Asiana Airlines

International Terminal 5

SEOUL (ICN) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-200LR

Austrian Airlines

International Terminal 5

VIENNA (VIE) – 7 weekly – Boeing 767-300ER (4x), Boeing 777-200ER (3x)

Avianca El Salvador

International Terminal 5

SAN SALVADOR (SAL) – 3 weekly – Airbus A319

Bahamasair

International Terminal 5

NASSAU (NAS) – 2 weekly – Boeing 737-500

British Airways

International Terminal 5

LONDON (LHR) – 14 weekly – Airbus A380-800 (7x) Boeing 747-400 (7x)

Cathay Pacific

International Terminal 5

HONG KONG (HKG) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

Cayman Airways

International Terminal 5

GRAND CAYMAN (GCM) – 2 weekly – Boeing 737-300

China Eastern

International Terminal 5

SHANGHAI (PVG) – 5 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

Copa Airlines

International Terminal 5

PANAMA CITY (PTY) – 18 weekly – Boeing 737-800

Emirates

International Terminal 5

DUBAI(DXB) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

Ethiopian Airlines

International Terminal 5

ADDIS ABABA (ADD) – 3 weekly – Boeing 787-8*

*operates via DUBLIN on westbound ADD-ORD sector as a technical stop

Etihad Airways

International Terminal 5

ABU DHABI (AUH) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

Finnair

International Terminal 5

HELSINKI (HEL) – 7 weekly – Airbus A330-300

EVA Air

International Terminal 5

TAIPEI (TPE) – 5 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

Frontier

Arrivals: International Terminal 5; Departures: Terminal 3

CANCÚN (CUN) – 7 weekly – Airbus A321

PUNTA CANA (PUJ) – 7 weekly –Airbus A320

Hainan

International Terminal 5

BEIJING (PEK) – 4 weekly – Boeing 787-9

Iberia

Arrivals: International Terminal 5; Departures: Terminal 3

MADRID (MAD) – 7 weekly – Airbus A340-600

Icelandair

International Terminal 5

REYKJAVIK (KEF) – 12 weekly –Boeing 757-200

Interjet

International Terminal 5

GUADALAJARA (GDL) – 7 weekly – Airbus A320 (5x), Airbus A321 (2x)

MEXICO CITY (MEX) – 14 weekly – Airbus A320 (7x), Airbus A321 (7x)

Japan Airlines

Arrivals: International Terminal 5; Departures: Terminal 3

TOKYO (NRT) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

KLM Royal Dutch Airlines

International Terminal 5

AMSTERDAM (AMS) – 7 weekly – Boeing 747-COMBI (5x), 747-400 (2x)

Korean Air

International Terminal 5

SEOUL (ICN) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

LOT Polish Airlines

International Terminal 5

BUDAPEST (BUD) – 2 weekly –Boeing 787-8

KRAKOW (KRK) – 2 weekly –Boeing 787-8

WARSAW (WAW) – 11 weekly –Boeing 787-8 (4x), Boeing 787-9 (7x)

Lufthansa

Arrivals: International Terminal 5; Departures: Terminal 1

FRANKFURT (FRA) – 14 weekly –Boeing 747-8I

MUNICH (MUC) – 10 weekly –Airbus A350-900XWB (7x), Airbus A330-300 (3x)

Norwegian Air Shuttle

International Terminal 5

LONDON GATWICK (LGW) – 7 weekly – Boeing 787-9

Qatar Airways

International Terminal 5

DOHA (DOH) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

Royal Jordanian

International Terminal 5

AMMAN (AMM) – 7 weekly – Boeing 787-8

Scandinavian Airlines

International Terminal 5

COPENHAGEN (CPH) – 7 weekly –Airbus A340-300

STOCKHOLM (ARN) – 7 weekly –Airbus A330-300

SWISS International Airlines

International Terminal 5

ZURICH (ZRH) – 12 weekly – Airbus A330-300 (6x), Boeing 777-300ER (6x)

Turkish Airlines

International Terminal 5

ISTANBUL (IST) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-300ER

United Airlines

Arrivals: International Terminal 5 (excluding Preclearance airports), Departures & Preclearance arrivals: Terminal 1

AMSTERDAM (AMS) – 7 weekly – Boeing 767-300ER

ARUBA (AUA) – 1 weekly – Boeing 737-900ER

BEIJING (PEK) –7 weekly – Boeing 777-200ER

BRUSSELS (BRU) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-200ER

CALGARY (YYC) – 7 weekly – Airbus A320

CANCÚN (CUN) – 15 weekly – 737-900ER

DUBLIN (DUB) – 7 weekly – Boeing 757-200

EDINBURGH (EDI) – 7 weekly – Boeing 757-200

FRANKFURT AM MAIN (FRA) – 14 weekly – Boeing 777-200ER

GRAND CAYMAN (GCM) – 1 weekly – Boeing 737-800

HONG KONG (HKG) – 7 weekly– Boeing 777-200ER

LONDON (LHR) – 21 weekly – Boeing 767-300ER

LIBERIA (LIR) – 2 weekly – Boeing 737-800

MONTEGO BAY (MBJ) – 1 weekly – Boeing 737-800

MEXICO CITY (MEX) – 13 weekly – Airbus A320

MUNICH (MUC) – Daily – Boeing 777-200ER

NASSAU (NAS) – 1 weekly – Boeing 737-800

PARIS (CDG) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-200ER

PUERTO VALLARTA (PVR) –1 weekly –Boeing 737-800

PUNTA CANA (PUJ) – 7 weekly – Boeing 737-800

ROME (FCO) – 7 weekly – Boeing 767-300ER

SAN JOSÉ DEL CABO (SJD) – 1 weekly – Boeing 737-800

SÃO PAULO (GRU) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-200ER

SHANGHAI (PVG) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-200ER

TOKYO (NRT) – 7 weekly – Boeing 777-200ER

TORONTO –24 weekly – Airbus A320 (18x), Boeing 737-900ER (6x)

VANCOUVER (YVR) – 28 weekly – Airbus A320 (7x), Boeing 737-800 (21x)

United Airlines Operated by SkyWest

Arrivals: International Terminal 5 (excluding Preclearance airports), Departures & Preclearance arrivals: Terminal 1

CALGARY – 13 weekly – Embraer 175

MONTERREY –14 weekly – Embraer 175

OTTAWA –12 weekly – Canadair Regional Jet 200

WINNEPEG –6 weekly – Canadair Regional Jet 200

United Airlines Operated by ExpressJet

Arrivals: International Terminal 5 (excluding Preclearance airports), Departures & Preclearance arrivals: Terminal 1

MONTREAL–21 weekly – Embraer 145

QUEBEC CITY –7 weekly – Embraer 145

OTTAWA –7 weekly – Embraer 145

WINNEPEG –7 weekly – Canadair Regional Jet 200 (7x)

United Airlines Operated by GoJet

Arrivals: International Terminal 5 (excluding Preclearance airports), Departures & Preclearance arrivals: Terminal 1

TORONTO –20 weekly – Canadair Regional Jet 700

Viva Aerobus

International Terminal 5

CANCUN (CUN) – 1 weekly – Airbus A320

Volaris

International Terminal 5

GUADALAJARA (GDL) – 2 weekly – Airbus A320

HUATULCO (HUX) – 1 weekly – Airbus A320

IXTAPA/ZIHUATANEJO –1 weekly – Airbus A320

MEXICO CITY – 7 weekly – Airbus A320

MONTERREY –2 weekly – Airbus A320

WestJet

Terminal 5

CALGARY (YYC) – 6 weekly – 737-600 (2x), 737-700 (2x), 737-800 (2x)

WOW Air

International Terminal 5

REYKJAVIK (KEF) – 7 weekly – Airbus A321

Baronvonellis · #17 Posted **Mar 8, 2018, 7:51 PM**

Which airlines is flying direct to Venice? Is it Venice, Italy?

Kngkyle · #18 Posted **Mar 8, 2018, 7:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baronvonellis

Which airlines is flying direct to Venice? Is it Venice, Italy?

American Airlines and yes, Venice, Italy.

nomarandlee · #19 Posted **Mar 8, 2018, 7:59 PM**

Like that international chart Kngkyle.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised because time flies but the 787 is much more prevalent in international routes then I would have expected. I'm rather wowed that the 787 is being used on all AA's trans-continental routes

Kngkyle · #20 Posted **Mar 8, 2018, 9:24 PM**

That listing makes American's network look more impressive than it actually is. Of all their flights to Europe, only 1 is actually year around - London. All of the rest - Amsterdam, Paris, Dublin, Venice, Rome, Manchester, Barcelona - are all seasonal summer service. AA has really given up on ORD-Europe for business travelers and now caters primarily to seasonal tourism traffic. UA on the other hand flies bigger planes (albeit older) to many more year-round destinations. And their joint venture partner, Lufthansa, is considerably bigger at ORD than AA's joint venture partner, British Airways.

UA and Star Alliance have really pulled away from AA when it comes to international service at ORD. It's little wonder why the city sided with UA over AA in the gate dispute. (among other reasons)