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  #1701  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 12:59 PM
thewave46 thewave46 is offline
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Pretty sure this will never, ever happen to an anglophone victim in Quebec, even with Bill 96.
At most, I could see provisions with protected relationships being added to the law. So, yes, if the Government of Quebec gets nosy about the language of legal correspondence/medical files, the Supreme Court could require the law to be amended to that fact.

If I had my conspiracy hat on, I might say the Legault government left those tidbits in there as 'Gotchas!'. He's a populist. The instinct of populists is to write laws that polarize, and the best way to continue that polarization is to have it end up at the Supreme Court of Canada. Even if the government has to amend the law, he still wins by promoting the 'us-vs-them' mentality.

The technocrat in me who thinks laws should be well-written and account for these things is appalled but the political advisor in me thinks it is clever. All the more clever is the Opposition impales itself by opposing it before an election campaign, as the PLQ seems to be doing.
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  #1702  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 1:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
It is a sensible post (except for the comparison of anglo-Quebecers who's ancestors may have been living in la Belle Province for as long as 240 years to Swahili speaking immigrants to Ontario).
We were having fun with comparisons, so I decided to push my luck there.

Perhaps a more fair comparison might be for my wife's Franco-Ontarien family to insist to only speak French in Toronto. They've lived in Ontario for generations, yet the province only recently (and somewhat begrudgingly) offers much in the way of French-language services in certain regions.

They're nice people, and can speak English. They yield to the fact that Toronto is essentially a mostly English-speaking city, so they operate in that language while in the city.
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  #1703  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 1:29 PM
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Originally Posted by thewave46 View Post

Perhaps a more fair comparison might be for my wife's Franco-Ontarien family to insist to only speak French in Toronto. .
Even in Ottawa, whose minority language demographics are very similar to Montreal's, such an attempt would be an exercise in futility and frustration.
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  #1704  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 4:31 PM
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I often wonder how the services stack up in practice compared to what's advertised. I'm skeptical that French services are easy to access at YVR or at the land border for example. This doesn't bother me and I think people should be reasonable but I wonder how many people get triggered by the French on the signs and think the service level is higher than it is.

This is an area where I don't agree with our friend JJ who makes it sound like the hellobanjur airport people are all Laurentian Elites who had private tutors teach them perfect English and French so they could get those plum jobs.
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  #1705  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 5:07 PM
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Originally Posted by thewave46 View Post
Perhaps a more fair comparison might be for my wife's Franco-Ontarien family to insist to only speak French in Toronto. They've lived in Ontario for generations, yet the province only recently (and somewhat begrudgingly) offers much in the way of French-language services in certain regions.
There will always be asymmetries between the level of de facto English service in Quebec vs. the level of de jure French service in Ontario.

Beyond history and beyond the fact that English is the global lingua franca, the English population in Quebec is traditionally rich, educated, metropolitan and concentrated and the French population of Ontario is traditionally working class, uneducated, rural and dispersed. Even if the proportion of each province's population were exactly the same (I believe Franco-Ontarians are still a far smaller group than Anglo-Quebeckers) it's much easier to find and serve people in English in Quebec than French in Ontario.

Quebec is also hamstrung by having legacy English institutions that are extremely important to the province's wellbeing. Is McGill going to let a promising tenure track MD-PhD Neurology candidate from overseas walk away to Johns Hopkins because they don't speak French?

If Ontario and Quebec traded places, then "Anglo Quebec" would be one corner of Quebec City, a belt of small farming towns to its east and Temiskaming, and French Ontario would be 800,000 people in Toronto living between Avenue Road and Bayview from Yorkville, up through Forest Hill and ending somewhere in Aurora.
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  #1706  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 5:15 PM
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One could also point out that the Franco-Ontarian population is likely to need more public sector assistance to support similar services levels because they are poorer and more dispersed. And the present-day socioeconomic status exists due to a mix of social factors and historical realities going back hundreds of years, something a lot of people are exquisitely attuned to when it comes to many groups.
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  #1707  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 6:23 PM
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Obviously there are province-wide and even Canada-wide and global dynamics that affect things, but I still think that Ottawa is a pretty comparative for Montreal in terms of minority language accommodation.

In both cases:

- the minority population has been in the city for a very long time, almost to the point of being "co-foundational"

- the minority population represents between 15-20% of the population

- the minority population has a fairly well-developed institutional network of its own that often exists in a parallel to the majority's

- the city is home to many national organizations that require, to varying degrees, the use of the minority language

Now, French is arguably boosted in Ottawa by the presence of Gatineau right across the river, and as a result the percentage of the Ottawa(-Gatineau) metro population that is francophone is quite a bit higher than the percentage of Metro Montreal that is anglo.

The fact that Ottawa is on the border with Quebec whereas Montreal is some distance from Ontario and the US border also boosts French in Ottawa to some degree. (Montreal is still not that far, but not really close enough to Ontario and the US to have as much daily interplay as there is between the Ontario and Quebec sides here.)

Even with all that, I am hard-pressed to find any clear advantages that French in Ottawa has over English in Montreal, with the possible exception of bilingual road and street signs.
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  #1708  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by thewave46 View Post
We were having fun with comparisons, so I decided to push my luck there.

Perhaps a more fair comparison might be for my wife's Franco-Ontarien family to insist to only speak French in Toronto. They've lived in Ontario for generations, yet the province only recently (and somewhat begrudgingly) offers much in the way of French-language services in certain regions.

They're nice people, and can speak English. They yield to the fact that Toronto is essentially a mostly English-speaking city, so they operate in that language while in the city.
Swahili in Ontario wasn’t even close to being the least reasonable analogy brought up on that page so it’s all good!
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  #1709  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 9:40 PM
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I often wonder how the services stack up in practice compared to what's advertised.
I once deliberately picked the only “service in French” lane at Port Huron->Sarnia just out of curiosity, and if I hadn’t happened to speak English, I’d probably still be in Michigan right now.

I could likely have sued the GoC for false advertising
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  #1710  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 9:46 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
There will always be asymmetries between the level of de facto English service in Quebec vs. the level of de jure French service in Ontario.

Beyond history and beyond the fact that English is the global lingua franca, the English population in Quebec is traditionally rich, educated, metropolitan and concentrated and the French population of Ontario is traditionally working class, uneducated, rural and dispersed. Even if the proportion of each province's population were exactly the same (I believe Franco-Ontarians are still a far smaller group than Anglo-Quebeckers) it's much easier to find and serve people in English in Quebec than French in Ontario.

Quebec is also hamstrung by having legacy English institutions that are extremely important to the province's wellbeing. Is McGill going to let a promising tenure track MD-PhD Neurology candidate from overseas walk away to Johns Hopkins because they don't speak French?

If Ontario and Quebec traded places, then "Anglo Quebec" would be one corner of Quebec City, a belt of small farming towns to its east and Temiskaming, and French Ontario would be 800,000 people in Toronto living between Avenue Road and Bayview from Yorkville, up through Forest Hill and ending somewhere in Aurora.
Add to your analogy “and year after year, nearly all of the tourist dollars spent in Toronto are from Unilingual Francophone tourists from France/Belgium/Switzerland”.
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  #1711  
Old Posted May 30, 2022, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Obviously there are province-wide and even Canada-wide and global dynamics that affect things, but I still think that Ottawa is a pretty comparative for Montreal in terms of minority language accommodation.

In both cases:

- the minority population has been in the city for a very long time, almost to the point of being "co-foundational"

- the minority population represents between 15-20% of the population

- the minority population has a fairly well-developed institutional network of its own that often exists in a parallel to the majority's

- the city is home to many national organizations that require, to varying degrees, the use of the minority language

. . .
Not to make the same point as you, but reading that, I drew comparisons to the Chinese in Vancouver. It seems BC has a more accommodating attitude for them than is made for the Anglos in Quebec (i.e. signage etc.), considering the ongoing policy to exorcise rights for English in Quebec. Distancing itself from such language fascism, BC could also have a more progressive definition of what an official language is.
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  #1712  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 2:19 AM
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Not to make the same point as you, but reading that, I drew comparisons to the Chinese in Vancouver. It seems BC has a more accommodating attitude for them than is made for the Anglos in Quebec (i.e. signage etc.), considering the ongoing policy to exorcise rights for English in Quebec. Distancing itself from such language fascism, BC could also have a more progressive definition of what an official language is.
BC isn't surrounded by a continent of mostly Chinese speakers who are more or less gnawing at English everywhere in the province. BC is located in an area with a population of over 300 million Anglophones and with the main English language cultural machine in the world right south of the border. English isn't even remotely threaten in North America for the foreseeable future.

BTW, fascism is an actual issue with deadly consequences, not just a situation you merely disagree with.
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  #1713  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 3:11 AM
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Exactly, his analogy is horrible.

“Linguistic fascism” is okay whenever immigrants, when left to their own devices, nearly all naturally adopt a foreign/displacing language; to preserve the local language, you then have to legislate.

If Russian, Ukrainian, Pakistani, Filipino, Colombian, Dominican, Punjabi newcomers to Vancouver all became Mandarin speakers and their offspring irreversibly so too, then his analogy could work, but it’s the other way around:

Immigrants in Vancouver, left to their own devices, eventually (after a few generations at most) adopt English, so, no need for legislation over there to achieve the objective “their descendants eventually become able to speak the local language”.

If the same were true in Quebec, THEN there would equally be no need for legislation.

Pretty sure France doesn’t need legislation; immigrants there eventually learn French.

Here though, the local language isn’t on footing as solid as English in Vancouver and French in Paris. Hence the need for a little boost from the government.
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  #1714  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 3:14 AM
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BC isn't surrounded by a continent of mostly Chinese speakers who are more or less gnawing at English everywhere in the province. BC is located in an area with a population of over 300 million Anglophones and with the main English language cultural machine in the world right south of the border. English isn't even remotely threaten in North America for the foreseeable future.

BTW, fascism is an actual issue with deadly consequences, not just a situation you merely disagree with.
Yes of course there are differences, but this process has been going on for decades, and has arguably reached a stage of success. I don't see French as disappearing any time soon. To us in Anglo Canada, Quebec is already almost a de facto separate country in more ways than just language. Fascism is synonymous with top down authoritarian rule by proclamation, using fear and demonization of "the other" to motivate and divide. How necessary is language choice really in daily life? Canadian identity does not depend on language, it depends on ideology and openness more than tradition.
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  #1715  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 4:07 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
I once deliberately picked the only “service in French” lane at Port Huron->Sarnia just out of curiosity, and if I hadn’t happened to speak English, I’d probably still be in Michigan right now.

I could likely have sued the GoC for false advertising
Why deliberately be an asshole? I suppose I could go to Saguenay and apply for a passport in English.
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  #1716  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 8:08 AM
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Why deliberately be an asshole? I suppose I could go to Saguenay and apply for a passport in English.
Then if you received as bad a service in English as Lio45 got in French, you could complain to media and it would become a national story showing how racist Québec is and how Anglophones in Québec are oppressed...

Why is it (and I am not aiming at you for that but at the general public opinion) that when a Francophone wants services in French it is seen a whining and when an Anglophone wants services in English it is seen as asking to have their rights respected?
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  #1717  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 8:53 AM
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Yes of course there are differences, but this process has been going on for decades, and has arguably reached a stage of success. I don't see French as disappearing any time soon. To us in Anglo Canada, Quebec is already almost a de facto separate country in more ways than just language. Fascism is synonymous with top down authoritarian rule by proclamation, using fear and demonization of "the other" to motivate and divide. How necessary is language choice really in daily life? Canadian identity does not depend on language, it depends on ideology and openness more than tradition.
The status of French is always fragile because of the North American context. It is not necessarily under attack by people who wants to just get rid of it (even though many people would love to see that happen), but there is a lot of indifference and inertia in public opinion about "letting the market finds its way". The corporate world wouldn't mind not having to translate everything and maybe save up to half a cent per product, and they would love not to have to make specific advertising campaigns for Québec. The pull of English and the American culture is huge and has to be counterbalanced, especially when talking about the integration of immigrants.

English Canadian are about 90-95 % American. Maybe not the conservative Bible thumping, gun owning, brain farting, Trump voting Americans, but liberal Americans. English Canadian try to assert their difference by associating themselves with what people feel makes them different to Americans, like hockey, politeness, public healthcare, Tim Hortons, winter and so on. Look also how American political currents are so easily infiltrating Canadian politics. Weren't there a few truckers in Ottawa with a Confederate flag? Many in those protest said they just wanted to express their First Amendment Right. And isn't wokeism getting mainstream very fast in Canada (it has a lot of points in common with multiculturalism, so it helps its progression). If American had a different language (and I am not talking about the color/colour stuff), it would be getting in Canada as well, and Canadians would want to fight back more vigorously because language is a more fundamental thing than political currents or what movies you watch, it is an everyday thing.

There were measures in English Canada against French that were WAY stronger than anything we find in Québec. Were those fascist laws too? Was English Canada based on fascism to build its dominance over Francophones? It would be too easy to dismiss all that and say that is just in the pass while we reap the "benefits" from those measure and don't really have to bother with French in many parts of the country. Since those measures and laws are no longer needed, we can all just denounce any actions taken to protect French while at the same time dismiss Francophones rights by saying it is too expensive, that there are not enough Francophones for services in French or that many Francophones know enough English (or should know enough English) anyway to get by, so no need to accommodate them...

Canada is a big country, it is a bad thing that different regions that want different things do things their way? It is a catch-22 for Québec: if we do our own thing, we are accused of not playing ball, of pretending we are independent while we are not, or to be selfish. But when we try to promote those ideas at the Federal level, we are told to stop and try to impose our ideas on the country. It seems that what the ROC wants is for Québec to do what it is told and not to push any of its views.
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  #1718  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 10:12 AM
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Why deliberately be an asshole? I suppose I could go to Saguenay and apply for a passport in English.
We really have different standards for what constitutes being an asshole, because if you happened to be in Saguenay, and events forced you to apply for a passport right then and there, and one of the booths had a sign bragging it offers service in your native language (English), and you had the curiosity to go and test it (because why not), I would never even think of calling you an asshole for that; in fact I'd find your behavior completely reasonable.

And if it turned out the local Saguenayian manning that particular counter spoke no English, you'd probably echo my sentiments in thinking that sign is pretty much false advertising and should be removed. Again, I fail to see the assholish part in that.

I echo someone123's general view: if you don't offer it, then don't brag that you offer it.

It wouldn't be outrageous for it to be impossible to apply for a passport in English in Saguenay. If you're in Saguenay in the first place, you probably can manage enough French to pull that off; if not then just wait till you're back home and apply there. Similarly, it's okay to require English of someone who's obviously traveling back from Michigan. I would have been totally fine with all the lines offering English-only service. It's Ontario, after all.
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  #1719  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 10:40 AM
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I haven't taken the time to read through this thread (so much to read, so little time), so forgive me if this is off base, but would it be fair to summarize this situation by the assumption that the French language would not survive in Quebec without this high level of intervention?

This wouldn't likely happen within the lifetime of most forum members, but perhaps over three or four generations would it be fair to assume (if no action were to be taken) that Quebec would be mostly made up of English speakers, as future generations would see less of a reason to hold onto a language that is being used less and less by the world surrounding them?

Or... would French be self-sustaining by those who strongly support their culture, such that it will always have a presence in Quebec? This would be under the assumption that parents would continue to teach the language and culture to their kids, and that there would continue to be support in the school system.

I'm curious about this, as there seems to be some perception that English-speaking Canada is actively trying to rid the country of the French language, but I'm not sure if this is the case. I think the attrition would be more linked to gradual cultural change and indifference, not unlike how very few Nova Scotians speak Gaelic, even though it was the native language of Scottish settlers who comprised a large part of the population many generations ago. There still are efforts to keep the language and culture alive among those who care about it, but it has mostly disappeared from the landscape (for the same reasons, cultural change and indifference). So if French language and culture was left unabated, to fend for itself, would it survive on its own? That seems to be the concern here, unless I'm totally missing the point.

As a non-French speaking (other than 3 years required Junior High French plus another 3 years of elective French classes in high school) ROC person, I would like to see the French culture and language continue in Quebec (and other traditionally French-speaking areas in Canada). Personally, I think the Quebecois culture adds depth to our society, and thus is a benefit even to those who don't understand its intrinsic value (from an ROC perspective, of course).

However, even with the levels of passion expressed in this thread, I can't help but wonder if the enthusiasm to keep up the fight will wane as the older generations pass on, and the younger generations wonder what all the fuss was about. Or not.

Just , which now only exists in digital form anyhow, so value it as such...
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  #1720  
Old Posted May 31, 2022, 11:34 AM
jamincan jamincan is offline
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Then if you received as bad a service in English as Lio45 got in French, you could complain to media and it would become a national story showing how racist Québec is and how Anglophones in Québec are oppressed...
Where are the national stories about how racist Quebec is and how anglophones in Quebec are oppressed?
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