Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

There may also be an element of fatigue with major concerts in Halifax (and Moncton).

Rumor mill has started up again: I heard a source tell me this week that it is U2 for Moncton next summer.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by someone123

The Black Eyed Peas are very popular but don't have the same wide appeal as the Rolling Stones or Paul McCartney, who are known to people in their 20s and [much wealthier] people in their 60s. There may also be an element of fatigue with major concerts in Halifax (and Moncton). Some people might only go to one heavily promoted event every year or two.

When I talked to my friend Ben, who works in Toronto as a promoter, what he said lead to this article on my blog.

“There are lots of shows at the Air Canada Centre that do really well. The Molson amphitheatre is 16k and has probably 10-15 a summer that do 10-15,000, though lots are smaller and are put there as programming for the venue (concessions) not because its an appropriate size for those shows.”
Well what about big concerts, Ben, who plays Rogers Centre? “It’s rarely used-Stones, U2, Coldplay and ACDC play Rogers Centre. McCartney, Bieber, Roger Waters and Black Eyed Peas just did multiples at the ACC. Kiss played the Amphitheater and Weezer just played a small config at the Air Canada Centre, for good reason.”
So that leads to the second and final point of this series. Air Canada Centre is only 19,800 for concerts. The Amphitheatre is 16,000.
A quick look at any of these venues websites confirms, the concerts don’t happen at 50,000 capacity Rogers.
Toronto is Canada’s biggest concert market, with 5.5 million people in the GTA, and most of these artists play to 20,000 at most. To be fair, some of this is due to scheduling at Rogers around the two sports teams, and some of the artists do multiples at ACC, selling out one show then offering another. But the fact remains, in Canada’s biggest city, less than a handful of bands play to 50,000 people.

I just don't think there is a market here for more than 1 show every two/three years, and you don't need to build a venue for it, you have the hill, and the commons.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Rumor mill has started up again: I heard a source tell me this week that it is U2 for Moncton next summer.

Interesting.......there were rumours about U2 in Moncton last year but there were problems in scheduling any concerts around other events in the city (especially the IAAF World Junior Championships), and U2 was using a circular stage last year which would not have worked at the Magnetic Hill Concert Site.

I wonder if U2 will have a new stage next year, or if they would be thinking of playing at the Moncton Stadium. Permanent seating is 10,000 but if the infield were also used, they could probably get 15-18,000 people in there. They could put more in with temporary bleachers in the end zones (25,000 at least).

Of course, if U2 were to play at Magnetic Hill, they would get at least 75,000. I would certainly go (and I'm an old fart who hasn't been to a Magnetic Hill concert yet).

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

I just don't think there is a market here for more than 1 show every two/three years, and you don't need to build a venue for it, you have the hill, and the commons.

Regardless, I just don't like the idea of using the Commons for concerts. It's too disruptive and tears up the sports fields so that they can't be used for the rest of the summer.

Halifax needs a stadium period. My preference is a stadium at Gorsebrook where it would be handy to Dalhousie and Saint Mary's and thus capable of being used as a university sports facility. This would also be reasonably close to downtown. It should be a multipurpose facility capable of hosting concerts up to 25,000 spectators.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Halifax needs a stadium period. My preference is a stadium at Gorsebrook where it would be handy to Dalhousie and Saint Mary's and thus capable of being used as a university sports facility. This would also be reasonably close to downtown. It should be a multipurpose facility capable of hosting concerts up to 25,000 spectators.

Sounds great except that a horseshoe configuration with 25,000 seats should be able to hold 40,000 - 45,000 for concerts.

PS: I wish that there were someone in Halifax that would just say - we are going to find a way to have a CFL team in Halifax instead of stating all the reasons why it doesn't make sense.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Sounds great except that a horseshoe configuration with 25,000 seats should be able to hold 40,000 - 45,000 for concerts.

PS: I wish that there were someone in Halifax that would just say - we are going to find a way to have a CFL team in Halifax instead of stating all the reasons why it doesn't make sense.

If I had a spare $500 million; I'd be on my way there to build this stadium and hell I'd throw in Nova Centre too, but looking into my wallet I see only $25. Can I pay for it on $1 a day?

Seriously though; I would have to agree - lets get this done. Perhaps someone in Halifax needs to start talking with Sue Uteck (since her husband was involved in Football) or some of the pro development councillors (or heck, even Mayor Kelly) and see if they could arrange meetings with the right corporate people?

My guess would be that if you can get a few corporate sponsors onboard with MOU's (Memorandum's of understanding) then that could be taken to the NS government and HRM council to help with the cost?

I (like Fenwick) would love to help out and have a few contacts with HRM council still. I can see what I can do when I'm home, but I'm only home for a week over the holidays.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Seriously though; I would have to agree - lets get this done. Perhaps someone in Halifax needs to start talking with Sue Uteck (since her husband was involved in Football) or some of the pro development councillors (or heck, even Mayor Kelly) and see if they could arrange meetings with the right corporate people?

There was an interview in the Chronicle Herald within the past couple of weeks in which Sue Uteck stated that a stadium such as required for the FIFA Women's Cup would cost too much money (I am paraphrasing). A number of councilors were interviewed and she was the one who seemed to be against it. (It was frustrating to me since in another interview a couple of years ago she stated that in order for Halifax to get a stadium that a major sports event would be required). It seems that her priorities have switched to taxes (or it always was) - so I think Sue Uteck is the wrong person to approach.

Currently, Grant MacDonald at Trade Centre Inc. seems to be the one spearheading the Halifax bid for this sports event (I am not sure how much Scott Ferguson is involved). The big question to me is whether Grant MacDonald will get support from the municipal and provincial governments (plus private corporations). The support of the provincial government will be critical to a serious bid going forth - a story in the Chronicle Herald early in November (November 5?) indicated that the provincial Health Minister (Maureen MacDonald) was in favour of the bid - I can't check this since the story is now in the Chronicle Herald Archives and I didn't want to pay the $4.00 to download it.

[MaritimeCFLFan]

Well perhaps (and this is just a guess on my part) Sue Uteck is more interested in obtaining a new but small (4,000 - 8,000 seat) stadium at Saint Mary's only and not interested in getting involved in trying to bring a 25,000 seat stadium for the HRM.

[fenwick16]

Many of us got excited at Atl Stadium's information about a U-shaded stadium (I would call it a horseshoe shaped stadium) so I looked up some images on the internet. I think such a design would be good for concerts, football and soccer. It could eventually even be completely enclosed (if so desired). This is one that I found - Earthquakes Stadium in San Jose:

(source: http://www.bayareasportsdrive.com/soccer-news_in_the_bay-area.htm )


(source: http://www.thesanjoseblog.com/2010/02/earthquakes-stadium-renders.html )


The Earthquakes stadium seats 15,000 and is estimated to cost $40 - $60 million dollars - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Earthquakes_Stadium

I think another good option would be the Cardiff City Stadium. If a horseshoe style stadium is desired then it could be built with one end open.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Halifax needs a stadium period. My preference is a stadium at Gorsebrook where it would be handy to Dalhousie and Saint Mary's and thus capable of being used as a university sports facility. This would also be reasonably close to downtown. It should be a multipurpose facility capable of hosting concerts up to 25,000 spectators.

I agree with all these points. I just re-read it and realized you say 25000 for concerts, which would be 15-17K seated and 8-10K field.... (edited)

The bigger the facility is, the more costly to operate and maintain. I am against another east coast white elephant. Most people on this board are the kind of people who feel government is bloated, taxes are going up and services are going down. A facility like this is going to cost money to own, to maintain, to keep open, and I am not convinced we should start with the biggest stadium we would ever need. 10-17K, maybe just bleachers on one side so we can add a second if we prove we need it.

But that is also a wild ass guess. Lets actually see a a business case on this turkey before, not after we build it.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

I agree with all these points. I just re-read it and realized you say 25000 for concerts, which would be 15-17K seated and 8-10K field.... (edited)

That is exactly what I meant. I think a stadium similar to, or slightly larger than the Moncton Stadium is what Halifax needs. Of course I fully support the concept that it should be easily expandable if a CFL team ever came to Halifax but I don't think you guys need a 30,000 seat "white elephant" unless you are virtually guaranteed a franchise.

BTW, I approve of the current Moncton Stadium for just those very same reasons. I may dream of a Moncton CFL franchise but I am fully cognizant of the fact that the stars would have to allign perfectly for this ever to happen.

For the time being, our stadium in Moncton is just what we need. If the football Gods ever did smile upon us, a major upgrade would be necessary (costing tens of millions of dollars), but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by MaritimeCFLFan

Another piece in the Herald today says as many as 9 Canadian cities could be in the running to host games for the 2015 Womens World Cup. Of these 9 cities Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver would be seen as shoo-ins. I'd have to add Ottawa to that group as well with their new stadium coming on-line for 2013 and Jeff Hunt already expressing interest in bringing a soccer team to Ottawa. With new stadium's coming in Winnipeg (2012) and Hamilton (Pan-Am Games 2015) I can't see them not hosting games as well. Edmonton has a history of hosting events like this as well so I'm sure that city will host too. Suddenly you have a very strong list of 7 cities that will probably all host games.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Sports/1214125.html

Still leaves Halifax, Moncton and Quebec City as 3 possible cities left and with Moncton's new facility I'd bet they get a leg up on us too.

Halifax is still in the running but when I actually sat down and thought about everything I'm not sure how likely it is. I do suspect that there will be at least 1 new facility built in a city that currently has none, sort of a legacy of hosting the event so maybe thats our ticket.

The sick irony is that Halifax may have a leg up on Moncton because Moncton already has a spanky new stadium. Halifax could become the poster child for a legacy left from the 2015 World Cup in the form of a 25,000 seat stadium expandable to 40,000 for the occasional Grey Cup.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

I agree with all these points. I just re-read it and realized you say 25000 for concerts, which would be 15-17K seated and 8-10K field.... (edited)

The bigger the facility is, the more costly to operate and maintain. I am against another east coast white elephant. Most people on this board are the kind of people who feel government is bloated, taxes are going up and services are going down. A facility like this is going to cost money to own, to maintain, to keep open, and I am not convinced we should start with the biggest stadium we would ever need. 10-17K, maybe just bleachers on one side so we can add a second if we prove we need it.

But that is also a wild ass guess. Lets actually see a a business case on this turkey before, not after we build it.

I am confused by this. Which one is the turkey - the 10-17K stadium that you recommend or a much larger stadium? What is the other East Coast white elephant?

Is there a business case for holding concerts on the commons if the government doesn't subsidize each one to the tune of $500,000 - $1,000,000 dollars? I doubt it, however most people are in favour of such concerts anyway. How would you come up with a business case for public facilities like libraries, hospitals, public transit, and parks? Why can't Halifax officials just build a stadium for the enjoyment of its residents, and then do all it can to get a CFL team? There will be people who are opposed to everything, but in a democracy the majority should rule. A recent survey indicated that 60% were completely or mostly in favour of a stadium.

[halifaxboyns]

I'd have to say I don't feel government is bloated; I think that it has to do with finding efficiency. I look at a stadium as a rather large economic development engine, although it may take years to really recoup the cost of it.

Concerts, events - they all bring people in. I'm concerned if we build a stadium too small, we've defeated the point of actually doing it. Frankly, I really don't care if people have an issue with concerts on the commons - I'd enjoy them there or at a stadium (doesn't matter to me).

But if we end up building something and it's not the right size - what have we really achieved? This argument is going to come up when it's time to replace the Metro Centre and lets face it; Halifax is growing faster than that high growth scenario of the regional plan which estimated total population of HRM by 2027 at 425,000 - at 2010 to be at 400,000 with 17 years to go; I'm guessing HRM will blow past that.

I'm guessing that we need to accept that there will be increased cost here but with an big facility comes opportunity. Plus, I have a feeling that many people in Atlantic Canada would support the team - but that's my assumption. I'm sure you'd have no problem selling the ticket packages; heck, I'd buy season tickets for family even though I may not live there.

Economic development doesn't happen with out taking some risks. If we stick to the idea that everything has to have a positive rate of return; no one will take risks. I don't recall who mentioned it - the 4 pad arena is a huge cost, yet very little rate of return. Yet there seemed no problem to build it...

[someone123]

Is there actually a big cost (capital cost and maintenance) difference between a 15,000 seat and a 25,000 seat stadium? People seem to be just assuming this. This is part of why endless public debates are unproductive. There should be a study where they produce a chart with a bunch of different stadium options and costs.

My guess would be that the cost is dominated by "extras" like retractable roofs (new BC Place roof and renovations cost over $500M - bare bones temporary Lions stadium cost $14.4M with 27,500 seats) and that the marginal cost of 10,000 extra seats is relatively easily justified even if they are only used a few times a year.

A white elephant would be something like the Rogers Centre in Halifax, not a basic stadium with 25,000 seats used even only for SMU football, some other small teams (people have mentioned soccer), and the occasional concert or other event. A CFL team probably isn't even a requirement to make such a stadium reasonable.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Halifax is growing faster than that high growth scenario of the regional plan which estimated total population of HRM by 2027 at 425,000 - at 2010 to be at 400,000 with 17 years to go; I'm guessing HRM will blow past that.

People keep repeating no rail transit, no new bridge, no road widening, no tall buildings, no stadium, no games, no, no, no, and meanwhile the city keeps growing in the worst possible way.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I'd have to say I don't feel government is bloated; I think that it has to do with finding efficiency.

By design, a bureaucracy cannot be efficient. By their very nature, they have to be inefficient because of the endless checks and balances that they require. The bigger they get, the less efficient they become because even more oversight and checks and balances are required.

And if you have not lived here in a while, you cannot begin to realize how huge the HRM bureaucracy has become. It is massive. Meanwhile, the provincial bureaucracy continues to grow as well while the provincial population has leveled out and projected to be in steady decline in years to come. This cannot stand.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I'd have to say I don't feel government is bloated; I think that it has to do with finding efficiency. I look at a stadium as a rather large economic development engine, although it may take years to really recoup the cost of it.
...

HRM government is certainly bloated with 23 councillors. Here is the link to the 10 Vancouver councillors.
http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/mayorcouncil/councillors.htm

Why don`t the detractors suggest that we can save taxpayers money by eliminating councillors instead of trying to thwart revenue producing ventures like a stadium and convention centre.

[-Harlington-]

I was at the high school championship earlier today (citadel destroyed sir john a)
and it just made me realise how much we NEED a stadium, as im sure you all know huskies stadium is falling apart and there really isnt room for expantion, i never really realised this until i saw it, but we really need this seeing how this is the best we have in a city of 400,000, its just sad really...

[halifaxboyns]

I worked for HRM some time ago; I work for the City of Calgary now - where the total number of staff stands at just over 14,000. So we're one of the biggest employers in the city - try getting stuff through us somedays; you'd be greatful for HRM's way of doing things BELIEVE ME, because it astounds me somedays he rediculous we can be.

I agree; HRM council is way too big. But that's not the issue here - the issue is the stadium. Besides, with the right person at the helm of an organization you can set a maximum staff level and make things efficient. I firmly believe that.

I Sue Uteck isn't in favour of a stadium - then for me; that brings us back to the drawing board and I'm a little surprised she wouldn't be in favour of it.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I am confused by this. Which one is the turkey - the 10-17K stadium that you recommend or a much larger stadium? What is the other East Coast white elephant?

Is there a business case for holding concerts on the commons if the government doesn't subsidize each one to the tune of $500,000 - $1,000,000 dollars? I doubt it, however most people are in favour of such concerts anyway. How would you come up with a business case for public facilities like libraries, hospitals, public transit, and parks? Why can't Halifax officials just build a stadium for the enjoyment of its residents, and then do all it can to get a CFL team? There will be people who are opposed to everything, but in a democracy the majority should rule. A recent survey indicated that 60% were completely or mostly in favour of a stadium.

People also want, for example, a 1 to 1 teacher student ratio and a school in their own damn back yard. But they don't want to pay for it.

This is the same issue I have with WTCC2. What are the costs?

A stadium is not going to make money. It is going to cost money every month. The rent CFL and large concerts might pay, the concessions, will be some kind of revenue and then there will be an operating expense.

A stadium like this is not going to generate a lot of inbound tourism, its just going to suck money out of the area 100 miles around Halifax. So you can't talk about "big picture gains" like the WTCC2 supporters talked about.

So a business case for this is "this is what it will cost the government of NS and HRM every month." Not just basic operations, but also total cost of ownership - maintenance, etc.

So to put it in political terms - how many cops and firemen do you want to let go to pay for operating this thing? The bigger it is, the more expensive it is. Maintenance and repairs are what, 2-4% of replacement cost a year as a good benchmark?

As an aside, I am totally against giving taxpayers money to private concert promoters. I don't think we did anything there but look penny ante on the world stage. Again, wrote, researched a lot about this on my blog, and have worked concert promotion for two decades, the whole thing was ludicrous.