YEG - Edmonton Int Airport

[ZiZiPop]

^ hense YEG needs to look past Air Canada and West Jet.

[Edmonchuck]

Originally Posted by tuffyy

Ahheeemmmm...

As a member of the cool-aid drinkers at the EAA,

Damn, where do I get some???

[dansk]

So for travel in Canada where is YEG going to look besides AC or WS? That makes no sense. Travel to the US sure, but even you and the ERAA admit that there isn't much more that they are dreaming for besides IAH and more service to places like LAX. Plus right now most of you prime morning slots are taken up.

What service does need right now besides IAH?

[tuffyy]

Facts;

AC has a mini hub type system in YYC, so YYC will see growth long before YEG does by AC and most star alliance partners.

AC good to YEG? As good as they can be in the current set-up.

Look past AC? sometimes you have to...

But honestly we cannot complain...

And we shouldnt.

[S_B_Russell]

Airport sale ahead?
City Centre Airport worth $80M to $250M:
report By FRANK LANDRY, CITY HALL BUREAU

Selling the City Centre Airport is on at least one city councillor’s radar.
“I would certainly be willing to look at that, and look at how we can benefit ... the Edmonton taxpayers,” said Coun. Kim Krushell, whose Ward 2 includes the airport.

But Krushell acknowledged she hasn’t researched the matter enough to know if it’s worth pursuing.

The comments came today after a new report found the airport land could be worth $80 million to $215 million if sold to developers.

But the city document, prepared in response to a motion by Coun. Tony Caterina, stresses that’s only an estimate and doesn’t include the potential cost for environmental remediation.

Caterina has been pushing to re-open debate on the future of the airfield. He’d like to see more flights take off from the gateway.




“I don’t want this to sit for another 12, 13, 14 years,” Caterina said.

He cautioned developing the land would take years, while allowing planes with up to 19 passengers to use the airfield could be done almost immediately.

There is some scheduled air service to a handful of northern communities, but the planes cannot carry more than 10 passengers. Many airlines have little interest in such small flights.

The bulk of scheduled service was consolidated at the international airport in the mid-1990s, following a referendum on the matter.

The airport sits on 536 acres near the heart of the city. It’s leased to the Edmonton Regional Airports Authority for $1 until 2052.

Krushell said she’s not sure if that lease agreement can be broken.

“At this point, it’s a debate one councillor has brought forward,” she said. “As far as the rest of council, we haven’t discussed this at all.”

The report is expected to be considered next week by city council.

[email protected]

[KrisYYC]

Originally Posted by ZiZiPop

^ hense YEG needs to look past Air Canada and West Jet.

And who else is going to be able to make any sort of significant increase to YEG's numbers? Alienating AC and Westjet (Canada's two largest carriers) would be absolutely retarded.

[Edmonchuck]

No one is saying that they should be ignored.

[dansk]

Reading through this thread I see alot of statments and one starts to notice really quickly that there is a lot of misinformation. Making statement such as overlooking Air Canada and WestJet show how little people know about the Canadian air industry.

I am not trying to create an arguement and nor do I believe KrisYYC either. I just find it interesting that folk at use YEG are complaining about an announcement like today. I for one believe in YEG and hope it much success. However it will not become a major focus city. Any connections it is seeing right now is just via default not full design by the airlines. To make statements in the annual report stating that Saskatoon is one of the cities using YEG is as hub city is great marketing; however when you look at the reality of the 1 flight by Air Jazz and 2 by WS you start to realise that is all it is.

This year YOW is going to see more focus by Air Canada as it needs investment. Then the hubs will see the other increases. Are there things in the pipe for YEG...yes. This industry is not as much as a poker game as some of you may think.

Anyways, all this to say. 2008 will be a good year for YEG. But I and many others are predicting that it will be another adjustment year for the authority. Be thankful that AC and WJ treat Edmonton so well, they especially AC have invested a tonne in your city considering the market. WestJet was more of a default.

[Rocket252]

^ so what is "coming down the pipe" for YEG?

[ZiZiPop]

Originally Posted by KrisYYC

And who else is going to be able to make any sort of significant increase to YEG's numbers? Alienating AC and Westjet (Canada's two largest carriers) would be absolutely retarded.

YEG has a desire to grow like any airport would. If the service from AC and Westjet isn't going to increase then they need to look at other options. Just like any business would try and find new revenue sources. Are there other options out there? I know nothing about the industry, but I'm sure there are. If any of these options would "Alienate" AC or Westjet then YEG wouldn't entertain them. It would be suicide.

For all I know this pending anouncement has nothing to do with PAX. All the speculation has been about the numbers because that seems to be how Airports are measured.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by tuffyy

For once as a EAA person I will remain silent...

but its GOOD very GOOD...

Edmonton will be very happy...


Lets just say YYC will be very shocked and the whole ''spoke'' thing will just be a laugh...

Finally we get the cake...

And its not IB...

Sorry to bring this old post up again but I haven’t been posting lately and I’d like to address something in it. In my Transportation Studies course that I took during the Fall semester I was able to review both the Hub & Spoke and Point-to-Point models of the Airline industry.* Not to single anyone out, but in the quoted post Tuffyy talks as if the Hub & Spoke model will be dismissed as our region moves to a Point-to-Point model; a switch from one to the other. However, after learning about these two model as well as transportation theory and trends I don’t think it’s correct to look at is as “either or”. Why? After looking at the emergence of Point-to-Point travel and the reasons behind it I have come to believe that the Point-to-Point model is not a model that has been conceived to open up the world for travellers but is rather a model for Airlines to tap into guaranteed and high potential money making markets.

The goal of private airlines is to maximize, with reason, profits and secure long-term stability. The Point-to-Point model has allowed them to increase their profits by servicing markets that were potentially quite profitable but underserved, or emerging yet stable and showed high potential. Due to their relatively small size I don’t think Calgary or Edmonton is capable of necessitating Point-to-Point service or justifying it individually. Unfortunately for Edmonton, only once pooled together can we get Point-to-Point service and Calgary was chosen as the pooling point. Now I’m aware that YEG can support a certain amount of Point-to-Point service, however, it’s not at the point where airlines can justify operating it. Yes they can make some money but not enough to justify the administration costs and man hours spent making and facilitating the changes. They only want to do this when they can really rake in the money or lead up to it. Now I did say that airlines want to maximize profits but they are on a different scale and aren’t nickel and dimen’ it.

While I don’t think YYC or YEG will be able to justify all out Point-to-Point service, I think the need is growing and the region is best served, in the eyes of the airlines at least, by a hybrid model. As the established hub YYC will continue, usually, to get brand new destinations but YEG will also get its own destinations and continue to cut lines in their spoke. However, I think this is a long process. Personally I don’t see either airports being able to necessitate Point-to-Point service individually until they hit the 2.5-3 million mark. Although it will be a long process there are things you can do to contribute.

Flying Edmonton First is good as long as you have direct flights but I’ll argue that it doesn’t work if you don’t have a direct flight. For instance, if you want to travel to Rome and AC or another StarAlliance member routes you through YYZ go through YYZ. Why? Cause it shows AC and their partners that people are travelling from YEG to Rome. By flying from Edmonton to London on AC then switching to a different airline all you are showing AC and their partners is that the Edmonton to London flight is popular, you aren’t showing them any reason to add an Edmonton/Rome flight but just more reason to increase the flights to London. If you don’t want to fly through YYC, which I find childish by the way as both cities are suppose to be working together, fine don’t! However, don’t hurt yourself either and instead fly through other AC hubs. It shows them the actual needs; they won’t know if you don’t tell them.

Anyway, an early congrats on your potential new flight. I know getting it goes against most of what I said above but things don’t always happen as they theoretically are suppose to or have in the past. Going on some of the hints my guess for the new destination would be somewhere in Asia or potentially Oceania. I’m surprised Calgary doesn’t have a charter to Oz yet… They’ve invaded Banff like the plague and I always bump into Aussies at the U. That’s an outside change though, if I was betting money I’d chose Asia. Seeing as it probably won’t be AC it would have to be an Asian carrier with the money to invest in a relatively risky new market, as such, it would have to be an East Asian carrier. Most probably Cathay, they were digging around here recently and talked about YYC which would piss us off if they went to YEG instead.


*Disclaimer: My post was the result of my personal analysis of theory and trends.

[craneSpotter]

^ well, well, not to be brash, but...

You didn't think you were schoolin', did you? Your 'Transportation Studies' course does not an airline executive make. The model you studied is out of date. It is more going towards a multi-point model. People, customers for airlines, want to be happy - the hub-only system does not make happy customers. Although the hub model is good (read cheaper) for some routes.

Therefore if an airline sees that enough people are going YEG-YYC-VAN, YEG-YYC-YXE , YEG-YYC-YWG or YEG-YYC-YYJ they will eventually go YEG-VAN, YEG-YXE-YWG and YEG-YLW-YYJ. YYC will loose some connecting PAX from YEG over time, but not really a big deal for them because they are growing faster than the loss. As a bonus, YEG picks up connecting PAX from from YYJ/YLW going east and YXE/YWG going west

Also, I think AC does like to know if when they fly people from Canada to London, London is their final destination. They are a business, and as one you need to know your customer - especially airlines. So, if they see their YEG-LHR is successful, they will find out if their passengers connect (via other airlines) to other destinations beyond, before say adding capacity or additional flights from YEG to LHR.

[KrisYYC]

You also have to consider the airline business model. Large international carriers like AC tend to be more "hub and spoke" because a good percentage of their passengers are international destined passengers connecting to/from major hubs . Where as airlines like Westjet will always be more "point to point" because most of their passengers are domestic only, or their final destination is relatively short-haul.

The larger international carriers like AC will always be more "Hub and spoke". It's simply not economical to have overseas flights from every medium sized city, even if the demand could fill the aircraft, there's also the question of ground resources needed (staff, equiptment etc) for such a flight at every medium airport. In the 70's and 80's it was economical, because a ticket from YEG-LHR back then was probably $3000 in 1970's dollars. Today it's just not economical. Whereas Joe Sixpack's flight on Westjet to visit his grandma in Saskatoon requires much less resources.

Am I making sense? LOL

[CanadianCentaur]

Originally Posted by KrisYYC

Am I making sense? LOL

Unfortunately, no.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by craneSpotter

^ well, well, not to be brash, but...

You didn't think you were schoolin', did you? Your 'Transportation Studies' course does not an airline executive make.

No, that's why I put in my disclaimer. I never claimed to be an expert but simply someone with some background knowledge and a personal opinion.

Originally Posted by craneSpotter

People, customers for airlines, want to be happy - the hub-only system does not make happy customers.

The goal of Airlines is not to make people happy though. Their goal, like I said, is to make a healthy profit. With Point-to-Point service Airlines started to serve markets that could ensure stable profits and were justifiably unhappy. It's great for severely undeserved markets and, as Kris pointed out, increased domestic flights, but not all markets and unhappy customers will and can benefit from it. What I'm trying to point out is that markets with large numbers of unhappy customers will be able to necessitate Point-to-Point service and YYC & YEG are, by themselves, not those types of markets. However, they are not suited to a solely Hub & Spoke model either. We're growing out of it and a more hybrid-like model is appropriate. With your "happy customer first" model there would be Point-to-Point service in Saskatoon, which is completely absurd! Just to clarify, which I should have done before, I'm talking about international flights only. I'm fully aware that both YYC and YEG can have a domestic Point-to-Point model.

[EdmTrekker]

Originally Posted by Riise

By flying from Edmonton to London on AC then switching to a different airline all you are showing AC and their partners is that the Edmonton to London flight is popular, you aren’t showing them any reason to add an Edmonton/Rome flight but just more reason to increase the flights to London.

Give me a break - AC knows full well smart travellers (like me) connect at Heathrow using separate tickets to connect to airlines (Star Alliance airlines as well). It is AC that can respond by offering a YEG-FRA fight non-stop taking me to heart of Europe for faster rail connections. Mind you we can now connect from Heathrow on Eurostar by express or the city Piccadilly line. For you to suggest that I should pay more and be inconvenienced 6-8 hours to support going through YYC is self serving, shortsighted and well...stupid.

[Rocket252]

As was said earlier it is all about making a profit.

Air Canada's "Who cares if people are happy" model works quite well for them.

[Rocket252]

When you have a monopoly on international flights and codeshare with the remaining airlines who serve Canada it is pretty easy to thumb your nose at the public

[LO 044]

Originally Posted by EdmTrekker

It is AC that can respond by offering a YEG-FRA fight non-stop taking me to heart of Europe for faster rail connections. Mind you we can now connect from Heathrow on Eurostar by express or the city Piccadilly line.

Yes but have you seen the prices for Eurostar trains? It's about $200 return to Paris return at minimum then getting somewhere from Paris's 8 or so train stations is another story. My EuroNight Sparepreis ticket from Frankfurt last summer cost me 29 Euros one-way.

Let's face it, as a connecting airport in Europe nothing beats Frankfurt. Even more sad is that LH's new YYC-FRA flight is timed even better (and something i was always looking for) arriving in FRA at 7:55. The possibility of connecting to another flight or train just gets better. This flight would have been perfect for YEG as it might even compete (in an advantageous way) with Air Canada's later departure/arrival time.

[KrisYYC]

Originally Posted by Rocket252

As was said earlier it is all about making a profit.

Air Canada's "Who cares if people are happy" model works quite well for them.

Jesus christ man. YEG got it's own LHR flight and is doing well, but I guess they're ignoring you guys . What do you expect? A new overseas flight every 6 months?

I'm an industry insider, and an AC insider for years. I've tried to explain to you guys about how the hub and spoke system works, why YEG doesn't have the same level of service as YYC (no it's NOT because AC is ignoring you). Yet you still don't listen.

I've never seen such a group of whiners in my life. It really makes you guys look bad. Even the Montrealers don't have such a sense of entitlement.

Unfortunately, no.

Now that I'm not half asleep: Basically, Westjet can do more point to point because the majority of their passengers are fairly short-haul domestic passengers. The bulk of AC's passengers are flying much more long-haul. So a connection at a hub is required. It's simply not economical to fly to Europe from every medium sized Canadian city.