Urban Cycling Developments

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

So we have the least-skilled riders on the the fastest and heaviest vehicles.

It's hard for me to get too worked up about your e-bike complaints when you put them in the full context of the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of idiots behind the wheels of vehicles that can go 4X+ faster than any e-bike, and outweigh them by 50X+.

The relative danger presented by e-bikers vs. car drivers is like a drop of water in the ocean.


Signed,
a (conventional) bike commuter

[SIGSEGV]

the only annoying thing about e-bikes is that I wish I had one everytime somebody passes me on the lakeshore path.

[craigs]

My husband has an e-bike, and is thus more willing to go on long bike rides with me. I tried it one time, and it definitely requires pedaling, especially uphill.

[Skintreesnail]

Congratulations to Kristen Faulkner on the Olympic gold medal win for the US. It would be super cool if it kick started an increase in urban cycling in the us. In Philadelphia they're trying to revive the Philadelphia international cycling classic in 2025 which ran out of funding after 2016. I really hope so, it was such a great event. Philadelphia could be such an amazing biking city if there was just the political will to let it happen.

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a6022...hilly-classic/

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

Congratulations to Kristen Faulkner on the Olympic gold medal win for the US. It would be super cool if it kick started an increase in urban cycling in the us. In Philadelphia they're trying to revive the Philadelphia international cycling classic in 2025 which ran out of funding after 2016. I really hope so, it was such a great event. Philadelphia could be such an amazing biking city if there was just the political will to let it happen.

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a6022...hilly-classic/

It seems like she lucked out to some extent in the way that an unknown can win a poker tournament. The top riders didn't know who she was and so didn't pursue her when she made the move 2 miles out. They falsely assumed that a)she was going to fade and b)one of the three were going to make a move. Neither of those things happened.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I think the key takeaway here is that bicycles were created for transportation, not for exercise. The exercise was always just a nice side benefit that may or may not be important to a particular user.

A bicycle commute of 1-5 miles in a typically flat city is not much of a workout. At best, it gets a typical American back to what I call "N", to borrow parlance from the defunct photographic zone system. The rest of everyone's lives are so easy that it takes 60-120 minutes of mild exercise to get back to what was Normal 100 years ago. But you aren't going to get into great shape by simply doing N. You also aren't going to turn into a good or great bicyclist without really pushing yourself. This is what annoys me so much about urbanist bike commentary - this thought that bicycling is simply an app that you can download and now you're a bicyclist and doing Good Things For Mother Earth and now it's Time To Take A Selfie With My Bike.

Biking is like so much else - it only takes a little bit of work to get to an adequate level, but then people get mad when somebody pushes themselves to take things higher and calls for people to improve themselves are met with hissing. This means going far into the realms of physical and mental discomfort. When you come out the other side then any conceivable bike commute is a piece of cake and you stop worrying about bike lanes and all of the things people grumble about on Twitter and Reddit.

The e-bike deletes all of that potential from the equation. It really does just become an app. But the security of the expensive bike is itself a big, big problem. Maybe the people here don't mind having a $1,000+ bike stolen but I do. My commuter bike is about 15 years old and worth maybe $100. A real commuter bike tops out at maybe 27lbs. Electric bikes are typically well over 30 pounds, which makes a big difference in your ability to bring the thing up staircases to a secure storage place. When I worked downtown I used to bring my bike up the elevator at my workplace and store it in a closet that didn't get any use. But I did get components stolen off it when I parked it on the street nearby.

[mrnyc]

transit options and exercise dont have to be the same thing.

also, i seriously doubt an olympic gold medalist lucked out.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

transit options and exercise dont have to be the same thing.

While your point is of course perfectly cromulent, from my experiences, it is one that is generally lost on the hard core "athlete cyclist" crowd who seem to believe that there can only be one way to ride a bicycle.

Engaging with them is a waste of time. A much better game plan is to ignore them and go out for a bike ride (however you ride)!!!

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

A bicycle commute of 1-5 miles in a typically flat city is not much of a workout. At best, it gets a typical American back to what I call "N", to borrow parlance from the defunct photographic zone system. The rest of everyone's lives are so easy that it takes 60-120 minutes of mild exercise to get back to what was Normal 100 years ago. But you aren't going to get into great shape by simply doing N. You also aren't going to turn into a good or great bicyclist without really pushing yourself. This is what annoys me so much about urbanist bike commentary - this thought that bicycling is simply an app that you can download and now you're a bicyclist and doing Good Things For Mother Earth and now it's Time To Take A Selfie With My Bike.

Biking is like so much else - it only takes a little bit of work to get to an adequate level, but then people get mad when somebody pushes themselves to take things higher and calls for people to improve themselves are met with hissing. This means going far into the realms of physical and mental discomfort. When you come out the other side then any conceivable bike commute is a piece of cake and you stop worrying about bike lanes and all of the things people grumble about on Twitter and Reddit.

The e-bike deletes all of that potential from the equation. It really does just become an app. But the security of the expensive bike is itself a big, big problem. Maybe the people here don't mind having a $1,000+ bike stolen but I do. My commuter bike is about 15 years old and worth maybe $100. A real commuter bike tops out at maybe 27lbs. Electric bikes are typically well over 30 pounds, which makes a big difference in your ability to bring the thing up staircases to a secure storage place. When I worked downtown I used to bring my bike up the elevator at my workplace and store it in a closet that didn't get any use. But I did get components stolen off it when I parked it on the street nearby.

All physical activity is better than none. People who buy ebikes buy them to include cycling in parts of their lives when it otherwise wouldn't exist. Times when they wouldn't find it practical (like too sweaty, too far, or too slow due to hills) or they have some type of ailment that limits them. I would agree with you if ebikes were replacing trips that would otherwise happen with regular bikes but that's rarely, if ever, the case. It's replacing car, transit, or sofa. So the fact that ebikes provide less exercise than regular bikes for the same trip is irrelevant. If you tell people that being physically active doesn't count unless its a full workout then you're much more likely to convince them to give up and assume that exercise just isn't practical for their circumstances. That type of negative, judgmental message isn't motivating. At all.

And all this exercise discussion still ignores that bikes are primarily for transportation. They still cost less to buy and operate than cars, still use far less energy to produce and run, still make less noise, take up less space, are less dangerous to pedestrians, and release less pollution such as greenhouse gases. It's just obsessing over irrelevant stuff while ignoring all the positive. It's archetypal example of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

While your point is of course perfectly cromulent, from my experiences, it is one that is generally lost on the hard core "athlete cyclist" crowd who seem to believe that can only be one way to ride a bicycle.

Engaging with them is a waste of time. A much better game plan is to ignore them and go out for a bike ride (however you ride)!!!

I'm starting to think you may be right. Some people just aren't capable of pragmatism.

[electricron]

I do not own an e-bike, I bought and own an e-trike. Maximum speed on battery and motor is around 10-12 mph. I am over 70 years, and I live on a fairly small hill. No number of gears will allow me to pedal my trike uphill. I only trike around my neighborhood when I feel like it. I consider it a toy. I might ride it to the nearest store, but usually I just drive my car. Not every store has a powered shopping cart, and my trike does come in handy at the smaller stores without them. I live it a mostly retirement community where specialist doctors offices may be 35 miles away in the big city.
If you did not acknowledge certain facts the first time around, my car is my main mode of transportation, my e-trike is a toy. I believe that is true for most Americans. Those who think otherwise are certainly not 70 years old.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

While your point is of course perfectly cromulent, from my experiences, it is one that is generally lost on the hard core "athlete cyclist" crowd who seem to believe that there can only be one way to ride a bicycle.

Engaging with them is a waste of time. A much better game plan is to ignore them and go out for a bike ride (however you ride)!!!

In San Francisco, we called them "gunners." Gunners treat bicycling primarily as an extreme sport. Thus, they do things like argue against sensible bicycle infrastructure, because if more people felt safe bicycling then bike commuters would clog the streets and then the gunners couldn't scorch through the Financial District at 30 mph.

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by craigs

In San Francisco, we called them "gunners." Gunners treat bicycling primarily as an extreme sport. Thus, they do things like argue against sensible bicycle infrastructure, because if more people felt safe bicycling then bike commuters would clog the streets and then the gunners couldn't scorch through the Financial District at 30 mph.

going to go rewatch premium rush now.

i actually have more respect for these guys than the weekend lycra gang who group ride $7k carbon fiber frames (with 40lb spare tires of their own) in gaggles of 20 blocking anyone from passing. (though i never see that in the city - only way out in the exurbs)

[craigs]

Originally Posted by cabasse

going to go rewatch premium rush now.

i actually have more respect for these guys than the weekend lycra gang who group ride $7k carbon fiber frames (with 40lb spare tires of their own) in gaggles of 20 blocking anyone from passing. (though i never see that in the city - only way out in the exurbs)

I wasn't talking about the bike messengers, but yeah--respect.

[JManc]

I regret not taking my bike out to the Bay Area as I would have ridden it everywhere. Now, it's just sits in the garage and hasn't been touched in about 5 years.

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by craigs

I wasn't talking about the bike messengers, but yeah--respect.

maybe respect is the wrong word. just saying it takes balls

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by cabasse

maybe respect is the wrong word. just saying it takes balls

Yes. And I think that's part of why some of the more hard core cyclists are against e-bikes and other measures that increase cycling participation. As someone who was strictly one of those super-fast, all weather, hard core cyclists for years before I added an ebike to the fleet, those kind of comments are a real ego boost. Yes cycling can be a hassle in some ways. Compared to people in cars and to a lesser extent transit, we're exposed to the elements, have to physically exert ourselves even when we're tired, be limited in how we dress because of spash-up and sweat, get helmet hair (depending on hairstyles), and of course face greater danger. So all the looks and comments of awe we receive really help offset that. Saving money, staying in shape and helping the environment helps a lot too, of course, but all the people saying they'd be too scared or wouldn't have the endurance makes you feel almost super human.

Yet if there are lots of other cyclists out there who aren't experiencing the same level of challenge, it makes cycling look a lot less impressive to the average observer. Unless you can easily tell an ebike from a regular bike when it's zipping past quickly then you won't know. An avid cyclist can usually tell (although there are some ebikes where the electronic components are well hidden) but non-cyclists often have no idea. So given your rareness as a hardcore cyclist combined with those sort of external comments and perceptions, cycling can become a part of one's identity and sense of self, and anything that threatens to erode or destroy that feels threatening.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Yes. And I think that's part of why some of the more hard core cyclists are against e-bikes and other measures that increase cycling participation. As someone who was strictly one of those super-fast, all weather, hard core cyclists for years before I added an ebike to the fleet, those kind of comments are a real ego boost. Yes cycling can be a hassle in some ways. Compared to people in cars and to a lesser extent transit, we're exposed to the elements, have to physically exert ourselves even when we're tired, be limited in how we dress because of spash-up and sweat, get helmet hair (depending on hairstyles), and of course face greater danger. So all the looks and comments of awe we receive really help offset that. Saving money, staying in shape and helping the environment helps a lot too, of course, but all the people saying they'd be too scared or wouldn't have the endurance makes you feel almost super human.

Yet if there are lots of other cyclists out there who aren't experiencing the same level of challenge, it makes cycling look a lot less impressive to the average observer. Unless you can easily tell an ebike from a regular bike when it's zipping past quickly then you won't know. An avid cyclist can usually tell (although there are some ebikes where the electronic components are well hidden) but non-cyclists often have no idea. So given your rareness as a hardcore cyclist combined with those sort of external comments and perceptions, cycling can become a part of one's identity and sense of self, and anything that threatens to erode or destroy that feels threatening.

I think it is a mistake to turn a transportation mode into a personal and in-group identity, especially an antagonistic identity. And I say that as one who commuted into and out of downtown San Francisco on a basic road bike for 12 years. It is indeed good for the environment and for health (I used to wonder how many pounds I was staving off by biking to work, and after moving to Los Angeles, I now know the answer to that question. Ugh.). It's also safer for pedestrians, requires less of the road than cars, and compliments public transportation systems. Thus, we should increase travel by bicycle. Part of doing that is making bicycling appealing to all kinds of people, not just young, abrasive adrenaline-junkie gunners who see themselves as professional athletes and the streets as their own personal velodrome. That identity just reduces the appeal of bicycling overall.

[Kenmore]

biking in chicago is a miserable experience

road dominated by agro drivers, total shit bike infrastructure

seem multiple bike riders nearly get hit by cars flying off DLSD

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by craigs

Thus, we should increase travel by bicycle. Part of doing that is making bicycling appealing to all kinds of people, not just young, abrasive adrenaline-junkie gunners who see themselves as professional athletes and the streets as their own personal velodrome.

LOL!

Nailed it.