The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Reesonov

I'm jealous. Proof-of-fare just feels so small town to me (I know its stupid but it does.) So it seems like the cost of installing the fare gates starts to make economic sense (in terms of preventing fare evasion/saving money on fare patrolling) once a system hits ~400,000 daily riders. I wonder if, after the extension to 4 car trains is complete, the C-Train might be getting close to that magic number? I hope so.

What is also great about it is the smart card system we will be getting with it, and the potential for distance based fairs in the future (which Translink says they are considering a few years after people get used to the gates).

So funny, my Japanese friend was with me yesterday as they were unavailing the gates, and literally her exact word were "oh wow, Canada is becoming industrial country" hahahahaha, I found that kind of a strange comment, but I know the no fair gates system always catches Japanese off guard and makes an area feel "country side" to them.

[memememe76]

Spending all this money on turnstiles to make Vancouver "big city" is one the dumbest reasons to install them. I also don't buy that there will be this huge influx of people getting out of their cars to use Skytrain because now it's "safer."

And I still don't understand the appeal of distance-based fares. I pretty much never use buses in Seattle because they don't have one-day passes. I just know Surrey is gonna get screwed yet again.

[artvandelay]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

What is also great about it is the smart card system we will be getting with it, and the potential for distance based fairs in the future (which Translink says they are considering a few years after people get used to the gates).

So funny, my Japanese friend was with me yesterday as they were unavailing the gates, and literally her exact word were "oh wow, Canada is becoming industrial country" hahahahaha, I found that kind of a strange comment, but I know the no fair gates system always catches Japanese off guard and makes an area feel "country side" to them.

It's great that Calgary and Van will finally be getting smart card systems soon. Coming back from using Hong Kong's brilliant system to Calgary's ticket based fares is like going back to the stone age. Hard to believe that they've had the octopus card since 1997 (which is brilliant, you can use it at 7-11, McDonald's etc. in addition to trains, streetcars, busses and ferries), and our ticket machines in Calgary just received the ability to give change and take debit.

[agrant]

Originally Posted by renthefinn

The fairgate system being installed in Vancouver will cost more to implement and run than it will save by reducing fair evasion. It seems silly to me that they would implement it, but it is what it is.

I hear various opinions on this, whether or not they will save money. I think initially, it will seem they've spent millions... but in the long run, I'm betting we'll look back and wonder why these were not implemented in the first place. Was it 10 million per year in lost revenue? These gates will be around for many years.

[Chadillaccc]

Exactly, within ten years they will have (potentially) saved $100 000 000 in lost revenues, so it's probably (definitely) not a waste.

[caltrane74]

TTC brings back the bendy bus


Nova LFS Artic buses similar to this one will begin running on the TTC in fall 2013.


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transportation/article/1241919--ttc-brings-back-the-bendy-bus

Tess Kalinowski
Transportation Reporter

The bendy bus is back.

Nearly a decade after the TTC retired the last of its articulated buses, new models will be running on some of the city’s busiest routes starting in the fall of 2013.

The city councillors on the Toronto Transit Commission are expected in September to approve a $24.3-million contract to Nova Bus, a division of Volvo, in St. Eustache, Que.

That contract covers the cost of 27 buses to be delivered next year and gives the TTC the option to buy up to 153 of the 60-foot LFS Artic diesel buses, said a spokeswoman for Nova.

TTC spokesman Brad Ross said more buses will be delivered in 2014.

Nova supplies the same buses to New York City. Each one carries up to 112 people, compared with about 65 on a standard 40-foot TTC bus.

The idea of returning articulated buses to Toronto was a result of the TTC’s cost-crunching budget process last year. About the same time, it was looking at ways to accommodate more riders on Finch West while that busy route awaits the construction of an LRT.

Among the TTC’s fleet of 1,800 buses the Artics won’t dominate, but they will provide more reliability on routes such as Finch, Dufferin and Don Mills, where riders are frequently left standing at stops because their buses are too full, said TTC spokesman Brad Ross.

The trade-off will be less frequent service, he said.

“They will be used primarily in our busiest bus routes to deal with congestion. Three doors will allow for boarding and alighting,” Ross said.

The TTC is still figuring out how to speed up boarding and fare payment when so many people are getting on the longer buses, but that will probably emerge as the Presto fare payment cards are rolled out across the system by 2015.

The last generation of articulated TTC buses was officially retired in 2004 because of corrosion problems. Those Ikarus buses, partially built in Hungary, were assembled by Orion in Mississauga.

Mississauga and York Region use articulated buses and the TTC uses articulated streetcars on its long Queen St. route.

Longer buses will save the TTC money on drivers as well.

[renthefinn]

Originally Posted by agrant

I hear various opinions on this, whether or not they will save money. I think initially, it will seem they've spent millions... but in the long run, I'm betting we'll look back and wonder why these were not implemented in the first place. Was it 10 million per year in lost revenue? These gates will be around for many years.

I think the lost revenue from fare evasion was closer to $3 million, and the cost of fare gate installation and operation was well in excess of that figure. It's probably in the "Compass & Fare Gates" discussion in the Vancouver subsection.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

TTC brings back the bendy bus

So is the TTC the only large transit agency in Canada that doesn't use them currently? Witht the crowding that goes in there I'd have thought they'd be a given.

[yaletown_fella]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

So is the TTC the only large transit agency in Canada that doesn't use them currently? Witht the crowding that goes in there I'd have thought they'd be a given.

Any word plans for a proper shuttle on Finch West? Something like Vancouver's 99 B Line would be a vast improvement over the current crap. My hope is the TTC and city will come to an agreement for rush hour ROW.

I used to live at Keele and Finch and current 36B is a complete joke. It's often as jammed as the Tokyo subway only slower than riding your bike!

From my own heavy transit user point of view I think bendy bus shuttle would be more feasible than LRT. It would carry around the same number of people, travel at faster speeds, and get installed almost right away. It would be a much cheaper option and therefore the TTC could provide more frequent service on express routes than an LRT. What's not to love?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by renthefinn

I think the lost revenue from fare evasion was closer to $3 million, and the cost of fare gate installation and operation was well in excess of that figure. It's probably in the "Compass & Fare Gates" discussion in the Vancouver subsection.

The figures I've seen are pretty misleading because they represent a rough guess of how many people ride the train without paying. That's not the same as predicting higher revenues after fare gates. Even if we accept the estimates coming from the people who want the fare gates installed, there's no guarantee that everybody who has hopped on without paying now would have paid for the trip had there been fare gates.

I suspect this is a classic situation where somebody has lobbied to put fare gates in. The "freeloaders" argument is convenient because that's an area where human beings tend to be particularly irrational. I think there's a pretty good argument to be made that transit fares should be eliminated.

[Nouvellecosse]

You've advocated a fare free transit structure before, but this would be a good opportunity to lay out the whole case for it.

[Ayreonaut]

Originally Posted by artvandelay

they've had the octopus card since 1997 (which is brilliant, you can use it at 7-11, McDonald's etc. in addition to trains, streetcars, busses and ferries)

I just got back from Tokyo a few hours ago, and it's the same thing there. The Pasmo card can be used for so many different things (everything you mentioned as well as vending machines and a variety of other stores). These types of cards are actually what I usually collect as souvenirs from larger cities. In my wallet I've got cards for Tokyo, London, Chicago, and New York (though the latter two are rather flimsy).

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by Ayreonaut

I just got back from Tokyo a few hours ago, and it's the same thing there. The Pasmo card can be used for so many different things (everything you mentioned as well as vending machines and a variety of other stores). These types of cards are actually what I usually collect as souvenirs from larger cities. In my wallet I've got cards for Tokyo, London, Chicago, and New York (though the latter two are rather flimsy).

Shanghai's got something similar too - it works on the Metro, buses, ferries, taxis, as well as in some convenience stores.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by someone123

The figures I've seen are pretty misleading because they represent a rough guess of how many people ride the train without paying. That's not the same as predicting higher revenues after fare gates. Even if we accept the estimates coming from the people who want the fare gates installed, there's no guarantee that everybody who has hopped on without paying now would have paid for the trip had there been fare gates.

I suspect this is a classic situation where somebody has lobbied to put fare gates in. The "freeloaders" argument is convenient because that's an area where human beings tend to be particularly irrational. I think there's a pretty good argument to be made that transit fares should be eliminated.

Wouldn't the lowest cost solution be higher fines for not paying? Maybe $500 and posting stats as to how many people are charged each month.

[Metro-One]

Here are some pics I took of the new faregates installed at Vancouver City Centre station, there are 7 here.





Cheers

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30634635@N03/page2/

[caltrane74]

Open pit for second platform at Union Subway.

Union station for subway/commuter-rail/inter-city undergoing multi-billion dollar renovation to increase capacity to 800,000 people per day.

[Innsertnamehere]

I would like to remind you to remove the multi part of your statement there caltrane, the union station Reno will only cost a mere billion dollars

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I would like to remind you to remove the multi part of your statement there caltrane, the union station Reno will only cost a mere billion dollars

I was under the impression that the commuter segment on its own was a billion. Not including subway upgrades or the ARL project.

[Chadillaccc]

I'd imagine Caltrane is right... as the Pearson station for the ARL alone is 130 million. That doesn't include the tracks in or near the station lol.

The subway station reconfiguration is prolly a good 500 or so million? Who knows. Seems expensive.

[vegeta_skyline]

The total cost of expanding the Georgetown line to accommodate the ARL is 1.5 Billion.
http://top100projects.ca/2010/georgetown-south-track-layout-and-grading-design-assignment/

The Union station reno is 640 million.
http://top100projects.ca/2010/union-station-revitalization-2/

Other work outside the station but within the Union station rail corridor is 300 million.
http://top100projects.ca/2010/union-station-rail-signalling-program/

The West Toronto grade separation project is 277 million.
http://top100projects.ca/2010/west-toronto-diamondrail-grade-separation-project-2/

And finally the cost of the second platform for the Union subway station is 89.3 million.
http://www.toronto.ca/finance/pdf/dc_background_study_appendix_a.pdf pg.99

For a grand total of 2.806 billion dollars for all Union station/ARL related work. Work in and around Union station alone accounts for 1.029 billion.
Though the final figure will probably be significantly more due to cost overruns/inflation.