The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Luisito

I see your point of view and I am not against street cars, though i think building underground tunnels for them is too much. The cost seems would be way to high. If you're going to build underground you might as well aim higher than LRT, go for a light metro at least. I am not sure what you mean by reaching for a modest tool kit and no new rail. Modern commuter rail systems are awesome.

Well there's no strict difference between streetcar and LRT except LRT tends to have longer vehicles, higher speed, and more grade separation. I think any system with a tunneled section should have it's own ROW in all (or at least most) of the rest of the route. So it would be an LRT but just with smaller vehicles more appropriate to the level of demand. The main reason for the tunneling would be to achieve a separate ROW in congested places where there's not enough room on the surface.

Light metro would be better IMO, but also much costlier. It would already be pushing it in terms of cost for a city this size to build an LRT with underground sections so pushing the cost even higher may not be possible. Edmonton's LRT tunnel is about the same length as the one in my proposal and it built that when its metro pop was similar to ours. But construction costs have increased since then.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Suggesting EXO or GO type service for Halifax is pretty laughable. You could fit the entire population of some of these Halifax exurbs in a single GO Train.

And if you have to use smaller trains like Ottawa on Trillium, you need to temporally separate freight and passenger rail. And even those trains are probably overkill for Halifax exurban.

Focus on transit for the core. It'll free up roadsoace for the exurban residents. They are cool with spending hours in their cars. They know what they signed up for.

Yeah using huge trains like that with many cars is obviously too much. You don't need huge trains to run a commuter train. Smaller trains like the trillium line in ottawa is reasonable. Stadler flirt trains are used as commuter in many cities. New rail would have to be built in Halifax anyways with eletrification, they would not need new massive loco hauled trains.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

.

Nice plan. I like it. Though I would try to do something for the folks in bedford/sackville also.

[Luisito]

Would a commuter train like this be too much for the Halifax area?
• Video Link

[someone123]

There are excellent commuter rail systems but that wasn't the Halifax proposal. It was for minimalist platforms along the busy shared CN freight route with vintage Budd diesel rolling stock. The debate took up a lot of transit oxygen for a long time and often revolved around service to very distant areas, sometimes set against a narrative of how this was some kind of huge gamble that might bankrupt the city. City staff seemed to be against it and some of the old reports sort of read like ads against commuter rail. Nobody knows why the proposal died because the meetings were in camera and materials were not public. I'd guess that the municipality and CN were both very inflexible in their own ways. CN would not want the service to affect their business, even hypothetical future business, and the municipality would want a low sticker price and low risk.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't mean to be disrespectful but I think this is basically backwards even though it matches conventional wisdom. People think that because it's a small city it should reach for a modest toolkit (no tunnels, no new rail, etc.), but that implicitly it makes sense to wildly overbuild and overinvest in transit in very low density areas. I believe that commuter rail in Fall River is more of a stretch than an underground streetcar in the inner city. A nice modern streetcar service downtown would likely recover a lot more cost than 15 minute bus service in a lot of the suburban areas.

Eventually the city will need some kind of answer for transportation in high density inner city areas. I don't think people generally appreciate the densities that are being zoned for and hit. It is a bit like Toronto, but at a smaller scale and minus the existing transit infrastructure. In 2021, part of downtown hit intra-muros Paris density levels. These higher density areas do not have enough extent for a big system but they likely will in the coming years and the municipality is deliberately concentrating a lot of development.

The problem is that too many times to suggest to build it bigger than it needs right now, is to waste money.

Originally Posted by Doady

So many buses bunched together on a peninsula, and on bridges crossing the bay too, I think it will need a rail solution sooner rather than later, kinda like Muni Metro and BART.

London is another city that should invest in rail transit soon, being in the snow belt, and inability of articulated buses to operate in heavy snow, which Ottawa learned the hard way.

It has needed one for decades, but because it is small, it is ignored.
What is the population of the smallest city with rail transit?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

A town of 2.5k needs vans. Not trains. We saw the same in Ottawa with the MOOSE clowns arguing that instead of a high frequency metro (Trillium Line) serving hundreds of thousands who live and work along that corridor, the priority should be regional rail service to places like Arnprior, which generates maybe a few hundred commuters to Ottawa per day and a fraction of that to the core. If you insist on living 50 km from work that's your problem. Not the transit service's.

Distance should not matter to the transit agencies. If we had good intercity transportation services, and good inner city transit, the distance would not matter. We have bad of both across Canada.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Suggesting EXO or GO type service for Halifax is pretty laughable. You could fit the entire population of some of these Halifax exurbs in a single GO Train.

And if you have to use smaller trains like Ottawa on Trillium, you need to temporally separate freight and passenger rail. And even those trains are probably overkill for Halifax exurban.

Focus on transit for the core. It'll free up roadsoace for the exurban residents. They are cool with spending hours in their cars. They know what they signed up for.

You can run a GO train, but shorter. There is no need for the 12 bilevel cars per train, but maybe 4 cars is more what will work.

[Coldrsx]

Banff National Park's new report is out:

Expert advisory panel on moving people sustainably in the Banff Bow Valley, August 2022

Key strategy 1: Reduce private vehicle arrivals
Key strategy 2: Create mobility hubs
Key strategy 3: Improve & diversify public transportation options
Key strategy 4: Develop & encourage active transportation
Key strategy 5: Create a comprehensive & unified transportation service
Key strategy 6: Develop partnerships with stakeholders & Indigenous Peoples
Key strategy 7: Use pricing as a tool to influence behaviour
Key strategy 8: Better understand visitor experience & transportation use

https://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/ab/banff/info...vement/groupe-consultatif-advisory-panel

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Banff National Park's new report is out:

Expert advisory panel on moving people sustainably in the Banff Bow Valley, August 2022

Key strategy 1: Reduce private vehicle arrivals
Key strategy 2: Create mobility hubs
Key strategy 3: Improve & diversify public transportation options
Key strategy 4: Develop & encourage active transportation
Key strategy 5: Create a comprehensive & unified transportation service
Key strategy 6: Develop partnerships with stakeholders & Indigenous Peoples
Key strategy 7: Use pricing as a tool to influence behaviour
Key strategy 8: Better understand visitor experience & transportation use

https://www.pc.gc.ca/pn-np/ab/banff/info...vement/groupe-consultatif-advisory-panel

So, will the Lake Louise Tramway make a comeback?

[J.OT13]

Not an actual proposal but instead, a concept from Perkins&Will’s Vancouver office.











https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/waterfront-station-reimagined-concept-vancouver-transit-hub

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, will the Lake Louise Tramway make a comeback?

I don't see it, but you never know.

It's more likely that you will see one in Banff and possibly Canmore (Silvertip).

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

I don't see it, but you never know.

It's more likely that you will see one in Banff and possibly Canmore (Silvertip).

Maybe it is also time to bring back the southern Canadian route between Vancouver and Calgary, as well as a daily train to the park from Edmonton. Those 2 would fit with the first goal of less personal vehicles in the park.

[Coldrsx]

They make mention of an Edmonton-YYC train...

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Maybe it is also time to bring back the southern Canadian route between Vancouver and Calgary, as well as a daily train to the park from Edmonton. Those 2 would fit with the first goal of less personal vehicles in the park.

2-3 intercity trains stopping at the park won't do s**t to reduce traffic. They need something that has hourly frequencies.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

2-3 intercity trains stopping at the park won't do s**t to reduce traffic. They need something that has hourly frequencies.

Within the park, true, but, I am talking about getting people to the park from closer areas that would most likely drive.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Within the park, true, but, I am talking about getting people to the park from closer areas that would most likely drive.

Why exactly would somebody close to the park (within driving distance) rely on a daily intercity train? People like this need a bus or suburban train with a park-n-ride. Or they'll drive. And the majority of traffic inside the park is from those who live closer.

Your suggestion is the equivalent of saying somebody from Aldershot should commute to Toronto with the once a day Amtrak Maple Leaf, as opposed to the Lakeshore West GO train that comes every 30 mins.

[GeneralLea]

It's definitely not the greatest concept, but I guess it does it's job in creating public interest in this project, not that it's needed anytime soon by my (limited) understanding.

[Coldrsx]

How about a 'cottage express' from Toronto up the 404.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Why exactly would somebody close to the park (within driving distance) rely on a daily intercity train? People like this need a bus or suburban train with a park-n-ride. Or they'll drive. And the majority of traffic inside the park is from those who live closer.

Your suggestion is the equivalent of saying somebody from Aldershot should commute to Toronto with the once a day Amtrak Maple Leaf, as opposed to the Lakeshore West GO train that comes every 30 mins.

I would love to see hourly service, but I doubt CP wants that. A good proof of concept would be 1 train going back and forth all day with about 2.5 hours to do each way. Mind you, it would still be too much for CP.

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

How about a 'cottage express' from Toronto up the 404.

I have always thought 2 trains leaving around 6pm heading to North Bay and Sudbury on the weekends would work well. Sadly, it is very much a fantasy.The only thing that may happen is the return of the Northlander.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I would love to see hourly service, but I doubt CP wants that. A good proof of concept would be 1 train going back and forth all day with about 2.5 hours to do each way. Mind you, it would still be too much for CP.

Hourly service is very easy with a bus. And that's probably how they should start, while trying to design a rail service. Kinda like how GO tests extensions of service with GO buses.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Hourly service is very easy with a bus. And that's probably how they should start, while trying to design a rail service. Kinda like how GO tests extensions of service with GO buses.

I thought buses already go between Calgary and the park as well as Banff has a Transit system.