Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Waye Mason]

Also, just saying, we would need a number of new roads into that site. At least a bridge across or under the tracks from Inglis/Barrington.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Er, what?

I said if we ask for more than say $20 mil from the feds it ain't going to happen, so we agree right? $50 million (20 feds, 20 prov, 10 muni) is reasonable, maybe, given the belt tightening in Ottawa is demonstrating. So we agree, right?

Or alternately, if we must fight (I hope not) "Do you expect to maintain any credibility by mis-representing what I said?"

As to your other points - from the point of view of a concert, I don't think a stadium will help, and I feel really really comfortable saying that I am right about that, given my background in the music business as a concert promoter etc etc. I feel quite confident that my research into the operation of 3 other CFL or former CFL stadiums is accurate. I feel my assessment of the market size here is pretty right on, when it comes to concerts, anyway.

As per my last post here, I don't think we should build a stadium with as many seats as Montreal, I think the Moncton example is most cost effective, even if we got CFL, as there are 9-11 games a season on the home field for CFL. If we throw up 15K extra seats 9 times a year, that means the stadium is "right sized" for the other 356 days of the year.

So again, yes, I am in favour of a stadium, in the $17-25 million range, certainly no more than $50 mil. I think the under the bleacher/fieldhouse/office admin space would be a great addition or even small stand alone rec centre, or alternately we could just fix Husky, which needs to be fixed regardless, and is basically a deferred maintenance/investment in the millions that has to happen before someone hurts themselves.

These questions are difficult to answer. The main thing that we and some others agree on is that SMU should be a tenant. In order for that to happen a stadium has to be fairly close to SMU or on campus. If it is just a status quo solution of restoring SMU Huskies stadium to 4,000 - 5,000 seats then Halifax is no further ahead. SMU could likely do that through a fund raising drive. If the 3 levels of government get involved in such a plan then they are essentially saying - forget about the CFL coming to Halifax anytime in the near future (because I think that is all that they will fund).

My ideal (dream) solution is a stadium on the SMU campus that is expandable up to 25,000 seats (for example put about 12,000 seats over the Tower Centre). But if SMU isn't interested in having a larger stadium on campus, but would want to be a tenant of a stadium close-by, then funding a stadium close to SMU would be a viable option (Gorsebrook, Seaport, DND Willow Park, Wanderers Grounds, West Mall - I know some of these are not going to be feasible but one might be). I have serious concerns about building a large stadium in a location that won't be desirable by SMU (example in Dartmouth).

I agree on $50 million or less for the first stage of a stadium, but I think that it is possible to raise $20 million from private donations (large and small) and then if Halifax gets selected as a host city for the 2015 FIFA Women's Cup another $20 million from the federal government - this might be the only chance Halifax will have for a long time, so why not build something viable, economical and suitable in the future for the CFL.

Since I live in the Toronto area, I know that large concerts have been held at the Rogers Centre. I would certainly prefer a stadium with permanent washrooms as a concert venue over the Commons (which isn't really a cheaper location unless subsidized by the government). Stadiums can be built economically with the seats covered (not the field) that would make it more suitable as a concert venue. I don't see why the Metro Centre is a good concert venue but a stadium with a higher capacity wouldn't be.

PS: I realize that these are just my personal opinions - I don't think decisions are going to be made based upon what I think is important.

[halifaxboyns]

Just FYI; I know fenwick and a few others brought up landsdowne park in Ottawa. City council of Ottawa approved the site plan yesterday.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

If we throw up 15K extra seats 9 times a year, that means the stadium is "right sized" for the other 356 days of the year.

Do you know that this is more cost-effective? Suddenly you have to keep 15,000 extra seats on hand and they are being set up or dismantled 18 times per year (probably more since there will be other big events). A stadium might last for 30 years or longer.

It's easy to fall victim to false economies, which is part of the reason why studies are commissioned for these projects.

[isaidso]

Building a CFL stadium that's the home field for the Huskies doesn't make sense. SMU needs a 10,000 seater at the most, while a pro football stadium would need 25,000 at the very least. There's nothing worse than watching sports in a facility that's 40% full and I doubt SMU crowds would grow to the 25,000/game range.

I highly doubt that a CFL sized stadium would be allowed on campus either. An on campus stadium is imperative for college football. Ideally Halifax would get a 25,000+ seat football specific stadium and two 6,000-10,000 seaters for SMU and Dal each.

[Keith P.]

Ah, I see my good friend Waye is here now. Welcome, Mr. Mason.

The tagline under his name is quite appropo.

He is not always correct, but that has never stopped him from believing that.

Have fun, folks.

As I have conclusively proven earlier in this discussion, there are only 2 possible sites for a stadium worth considering: Gorsebrook if you want the SMU connection, or Exhibition Park. I prefer Ex Park, but choose either.

Carry on.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Building a CFL stadium that's the home field for the Huskies doesn't make sense. SMU needs a 10,000 seater at the most, while a pro football stadium would need 25,000 at the very least. There's nothing worse than watching sports in a facility that's 40% full and I doubt SMU crowds would grow to the 25,000/game range.

I highly doubt that a CFL sized stadium would be allowed on campus either. An on campus stadium is imperative for college football. Ideally Halifax would get a 25,000+ seat football specific stadium and two 6,000-10,000 seaters for SMU and Dal each.

I agree that what you stated is the ideal, but what is realistically doable in the Halifax area based on Halifax only having one 3000 - 4000 seater (SMU Stadium)? I think a lot of people are looking at it from the other perspective) - a CIS size stadium (15,000 permanent seats) that can be expanded to 25,000 seats for the CFL. Then Halifax won't have a 25,000 seat municipal stadium without a tenant. On the other hand, a 15,000 seat stadium that can be expanded to 25,000 seats leaves open the possibility of Halifax getting a CFL team.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Building a CFL stadium that's the home field for the Huskies doesn't make sense. SMU needs a 10,000 seater at the most, while a pro football stadium would need 25,000 at the very least. There's nothing worse than watching sports in a facility that's 40% full and I doubt SMU crowds would grow to the 25,000/game range.

I highly doubt that a CFL sized stadium would be allowed on campus either. An on campus stadium is imperative for college football. Ideally Halifax would get a 25,000+ seat football specific stadium and two 6,000-10,000 seaters for SMU and Dal each.

I am not sure what you mean by CFL sized stadium not being allowed on campus. Montreal Als play at McGill do they not?

The issue is that a CFL stadium needs a larger size certainly than what SMU needs (given that SMU and McGill are not comparable in size, even if SMU does draw strong crowds on a per student basis).

There are different ways to do accomplish the needs of SMU vs CFL:
1. Add temporary seating as needed for CFL... however I think that someone123s point above is sound in terms of the false economies.
2. Redo SMUs stadium and build a separate one for CFL... but realistically given that Halifax just doesn't have that big a tax/population base, I don't see that as a good use of money.
3. My pick would be build it such that it has enough seats for CFL if you include an end zone seating and/or upper deck, and then for SMU games just limit the seating to the lowerdeck and long the sidelines. That way everyone is compactly seated, and you just don't seat anyone in the endzones etc (although those seats would be there if required for bigger games like a Vanier Cup).

[halifaxboyns]

One thing that hit me today as I did my five minute walk to work in -41 (with windchill - please, no sympathy!) was that with HRM's current $ situation I think the stadium will get put on the back burner, until things improve.

I think we have to brace ourselves for that possibility and I think beyeas said that.

I also agree with someone123; let's not build something that isn't going to work. That seems to be a constant problem in HRM; we build something we think might work and it doesn't and then we're stuck with it.

Let's spend the money when the time is right; but lets build the right stadium. I think Fenwick's opinion's previously on lining up sponsorship is absolutely right, but in light of current economics it might be a few years before this goes forward. Now, if the the $ situation turns around next budget - then let's giver. BUt let's build the right sized stadium from the start and then make sure it can be expanded, so that when we do it; we do it right and get value for the money spent.

I did this before and please don't take this as a measure of economic performance, but I was thinking of going to Edmonton this weekend to see friends not realizing it's greycup weekend. Everyone of my favorite hotels is booked full, I even tried some of my less favorites and they are sold out. I think we know that with the right attitude and support a team could do well in the maritimes, at least I believe that.

Besides, I would love to be living back in HRM and see a huge party for greycup; in Halifax with a Halifax team playing! Who wouldn't!?

[fenwick16]

A stadium will attract visitors to Halifax and I would think that it would be supported by businesses in the Halifax area. Most residents also support a stadium - a recent poll of 500 HRM residents indicated that 60% were completely or mostly in favour of a stadium - http://www.metronews.ca/halifax/local/ar...k-survey-on-the-topic-of-hrm-development . Only 12% completely disagreed and 24% mostly disagreed (some of this 24% sector of the population might agree to an economical stadium).

Even under the current economic conditions, an economical stadium could be built. Why not give taxpayers the option of paying for a stadium. Instead of increasing taxes, send a request to taxpayers to voluntarily contribute $50, $100, $1000 or more to a stadium. Then people in favour can contribute and have a stadium built in the near future, people opposed or just short of money don't have to contribute. (Universities make such requests of alumni and non-alumni on a regular basis). Also give people outside the HRM the option to contribute.

If such a method of raising funds is used, then I think that more people will contribute to an interesting proposal (but economical) than to a bare bones proposal - just as more people will support the current, more interesting, re-designed convention centre versus the old design.

People in favour of a stadium will want to contribute; I would certainly like to have that option (I am not an HRM taxpayer but I would contribute a couple of thousand dollars). If this method of raising capital works, then the same method could be used in the future to fund other projects.

[beyeas]

The only way I see such an idea happening (along the lines of people "donating" money) is something like what the farmer's market did. That way as well it is less of a donation and more of people investing in something.

Alternatively politicians could approve something direct, along the lines of what is done in the US where they put a specific bond issue on a ballot (or is that not allowed in Canada?). I lived in the US for years and it seemed like every election there was at least one thing at the state level where there was a bond issue being voted on. If a majority of people feel it should be done at that point then it would be done, and there could be a full public debate leading up to it.

Not sure if either of those are GOOD ideas, but just trying to throw some thoughts out there for debate.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Ah, I see my good friend Waye is here now. Welcome, Mr. Mason.

The tagline under his name is quite appropo.

He is not always correct, but that has never stopped him from believing that.

Have fun, folks.

As I have conclusively proven earlier in this discussion, there are only 2 possible sites for a stadium worth considering: Gorsebrook if you want the SMU connection, or Exhibition Park. I prefer Ex Park, but choose either.

Carry on.

I miss you, Keith, you used to make fun of me on twitter, I was impressed with your grasp of the technology at your advanced age, what happened?

I am not only sometimes incorrect, I even admit when I was wrong, or sometimes say "what do you think about this?" before I form an opinion. These traits are what proves I will never be a politician.

[fenwick16]

Investing in the Farmers Market is essentially a donation - I don't think people are going to get a return on their investment. Many people care about the municipality that they live in and want the option to contribute. Of course, people who aren't interested just won't contribute.

But, let's go further - have a municipally owned CFL team. Sell shares to raise money but have it run by the municipality. This has been done in the United States: (source - http://p2pfoundation.net/Municipal_Enterprises )

Municipally owned sports teams are also widespread. Communities which own (or have owned) minor league baseball teams include Indianapolis, Indiana; Rochester, New York; Franklin County (Columbus), Ohio; Lucus County (Toledo), Ohio; Harrisburg, Pennsylvania; Lackawanna County (Scranton), Pennsylvania; and Visalia, California (Mahtesian 1996: 42-5; Imbroscio 1998: 239-40). At the major league level, the Green Bay Packers are owned by a nonprofit corporation whose stock-holders are mainly city residents.

In this way, once a stadium is built there will be a tenant - a Halifax area CFL team. People won't have to spectulate about whether a team will come to the HRM or not - it will. It could be run just as the Trade Centre Ltd. is run.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Investing in the Farmers Market is essentially a donation - I don't think people are going to get a return on their investment. Many people care about the municipality that they live in and want the option to contribute. Of course, people who aren't interested just won't contribute.

I would not argue that point, but even if nothing else, doing it the way they did for the market is often more attractive than a straight donation, given that it was RRSP eligible. A straight donation in this case is unlikely to be a "charitable" donation anyway, but even if it was that it is not as significant a tax effect for most people compared to being able to declare it as an RRSP. And if people lose instead of make money, they can use the capital loss to offset.

It is true that people will give if they are interested, and won't give if they are not, but it is also true that it is that much more attractive to people if there is a financial incentive.

[fenwick16]

Great point. Thanks for clarifying it. In that case it would make sense to sell shares. I know that the Green Bay Packers did it to raise money for their NFL team and stadium expansion - with great success. They are now one of the top revenue generators in spite of being in the smallest market.

[halifaxboyns]

I'd have to agree with both of you; it's probably a good win and would raise a lot of capital. I have a feeling HRM's money situation should resolve as the economy improves and considering the NS government's situation (versus say NB); we're in a better situation than most.

That being said; I think the only way this project would get off the ground is if the vast majority of the money (I'm guessing at least 60%) came from this type of share idea and then investment from government.

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You have summarized how Moncton went about acquiring our stadium very well.

There was interest in establishing a mid-sized athletic (and performance) venue for the city. The opportunity to for the city to host the IAAF World Junior Track and Field Championships presented itself and the city was able to use this event to leverage funding from the feds and the province.

There is no football program (yet) at U de M, and it was uncertain what would become of the facility after the world championships. Although there has been interest by the city in the CFL for some time, it would have been pure folly for the city to build a massive stadium in the vain interest of attracting a CFL franchise.

A go slow approach therefore was decided upon and a (modest) 10,000 seat stadium expandable to 20,000 seats (and ultimately 25-30,000 seats) was built.

By doing this, (and by taking a long term lease and making the university the actual proprietor of the facility), the city reduced it's level of risk and also it's financial liability.

Ultimately, the new stadium proved it's value because it allowed the CFL to stage a regular season game in the Maritimes for the first time. In all likelyhood there will be an announcement during the Grey Cup weekend that this regular season game will become an annual event for 3-5 years.

The new stadium will be busy for other things too.
- Canadian Track & Field Championships in 2013 & 2014
- Uteck Bowl in 2011, 2013 & 2015 (I find this very unfortunate - this event belongs in Halifax)
- U de M likely will develop it's own CIS football program.
- The city is exploring a men's national team soccer exhibition game.
- The city is exploring the possibility of being a venue for women's world cup soccer in 2015.
- The city and university are open to the idea of using the facility for medium sized concerts up to 20,000 people or so.

So, having proven that the facility can be successful, it makes it easier in the future for the city to justify a permanent expansion and upgrading of the stadium down the road. It makes it much easier for the citizens of the city to buy into the process by knowing what the benefits of the facility will be.

By going slow, it makes the whole process more palatable and would likely reduce the risk of having reactionary wingnuts stoking public fears over $75M, 40,000 seat white elephants that will never be used.

Just wanted to add a comment about the prospects of U de M footbal.
Currently the CIS has no restrictions on a U entering a sport.....except....and heres the kicker!!!! If scholarships are to be offered there has to be equity in gender.....meaning that if U de M were to offer male football recruits scholarships like other Us they would have to also offer a comparable number of female to male scholarships.
Given the current student population and sport mix....they would have to offer about 50 additional females scholarships spots.....

[ATL Stadium]

Sorry Folks
Have been pretty busy lately.

From what I have heard HRM will be in the mix for a funding opportunity for a couple of potential international events. The mix will be able to bring a stadium back to front of the local decision makers. Thinking along those lines there would likely be two things happening.

1) SMU gets Husky Stadium back into serviceable shape for seating of 5000

2) a U shape stadium 25000 seat Atlantic Stadium gets built at Shannon Park. The open end would allow for additional seating when required and or a stage component for concerts etc etc.

Opps! did say all that out loud?????

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

Sorry Folks
Have been pretty busy lately.

From what I have heard HRM will be in the mix for a funding opportunity for a couple of potential international events. The mix will be able to bring a stadium back to front of the local decision makers. Thinking along those lines there would likely be two things happening.

1) SMU gets Husky Stadium back into serviceable shape for seating of 5000

2) a U shape stadium 25000 seat Atlantic Stadium gets built at Shannon Park. The open end would allow for additional seating when required and or a stage component for concerts etc etc.

Opps! did say all that out loud?????

We read about the FIFA Women's Cup - the host country will be selected in February 2011 (probably Canada or Chile) and apparently Halifax would like to be a host city (one of 6 cities). It would require at least 20,000 seats. But what would be the other event that would fund the SMU stadium renovation?

Do you have inside information on the stadium design (U-shaped?). That would certainly be best for maximum capacity at concerts (since the band could be at the open end) and would allow for temporary expansion for a Grey Cup game. I think a U-shaped 25,000 seat stadium would allow for about 45,000 at concerts.

If you are right (inside info on the U-shape stadium), then it is time for someone to organize the funding of a CFL team (7,000 shares x $1000/share = $7 million dollar franchise fee).

PS: I know that the feasibility of hosting the FIFA Cup is being explored. Also, I have heard that the organizers of that event have been observing this on-line forum (Halifax thread of skyscraperpage) for some time now. So whoever has opinions should go ahead and post them.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

Sorry Folks
Have been pretty busy lately.

From what I have heard HRM will be in the mix for a funding opportunity for a couple of potential international events. The mix will be able to bring a stadium back to front of the local decision makers. Thinking along those lines there would likely be two things happening.

1) SMU gets Husky Stadium back into serviceable shape for seating of 5000

2) a U shape stadium 25000 seat Atlantic Stadium gets built at Shannon Park. The open end would allow for additional seating when required and or a stage component for concerts etc etc.

Opps! did say all that out loud?????

What the hell? So is this another case of public consultation AFTER the decision is made?

Is Sport NS involved? Is there a business plan? Who will operate it? Have the Mikmaq been bought off? When were the stakeholders/users consulted? Has Canada Lands approved this transaction? Has there been a single official public discussion of this other than the Mayor asking about where a stadium should go on his facebook page?

This is the kind of thing that makes people who care about trying to engage the public crazy.