The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Sure. But that extension to Trim is not why there's no extension to Kanata or Barrhaven. Saving one stop doesn't pay for much. Especially if stopping at Place d'Orléans meant a larger Park n Ride and bus terminal there.

From what I recall, Eagleson was also substantially expensive. It's why they only managed to squeeze out Moodie.

They built to Moodie simply to place a maintenance facility there. The cost of Eagleson, was the cost of a pedestrian bridge to the park n ride. Sure, not cheap.

I don't think there will be many buses serving Trim Station, and the bus terminal already exists at Place d'Orleans.

I am not sure why we need to expand Place d'Orleans Park n Ride, if we provide a frequent bus shuttle to Trim Park n Ride. Doesn't that already exist?

When you consider that roads and intersections were relocated at Trim Road, surely we could have handled what was needed at Eagleson, beyond that Eagleson would facilitate the Kanata BRT instead of the convoluted proposal as shown on the map.

This is the problem. We made political decisions to extend LRT to Trim Road, when it was strategically better if we had provided a better connection in Kanata. There isn't much out there at Trim Road that buses would not have been perfectly adequate.

Regardless of existing ridership, we need to at least consider potential ridership growth. The Kanata North business park has always been difficult to access by transit for most Ottawans.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

77% of Ottawans within 5 km of LRT after Stage 2 according to the city.

https://ottawa.ca/en/planning-developmen...ge-2-light-rail-transit-project/overview

The West and Southwest are a bit of a hole still. But that's not the majority of the population. Zero reason that OC Transpo can't meet 15/10 min service standards. Just takes a few more buses in Kanata, Stittsville and Barrhaven.

It does surprise me that a city lik Ottawa cannot run all routes on a 15 minute interval.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Ottawa needs more than feeder service. The city also needs alternative efficient cross-town routes that don't require everybody to go through downtown to get anywhere. As it stands, too many trips require two transfers or even more. Most people can deal with one transfer, but two or more transfers is a deal breaker for most people.

It makes sense to transfer a each end of your LRT ride. However, if you mean 2 buses before or after an LRT ride, yeah, that does not make any sense.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Why is this not a two way loop instead of two separate routes that have the same start and end points?

It is a pity that instead of building Phase 2 to Eagleson, we built to Trim Road in Orleans. That was a totally political decision.

Which is why I feel a Phase 3 is needed and will build out the LRT and BRR enough that it will be better.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This is the problem. We made political decisions to extend LRT to Trim Road, when it was strategically better if we had provided a better connection in Kanata.

It wasn't a choice between Eagleson or Trim. The feds showed up with money. It bought an airport connection and the Trim extension. The city would have been stupid to just pass up the extension, when it was a rather low cost and low effort gain.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There isn't much out there at Trim Road that buses would not have been perfectly adequate.

There's no rule that says you must build transit only where there is development. Indeed, this kind of thinking is part of why we are where we are today. Orleans is clearly developing in that direction. So is Rockland. A Trim station can get those commuters off the Queensway. And as an added bonus, Trim is a virtual blank slate for TOD. They are actually building condo towers near the station now.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Regardless of existing ridership, we need to at least consider potential ridership growth. The Kanata North business park has always been difficult to access by transit for most Ottawans.

That access will improve after Stage 2. But ultimately the problem in places like Kanata North is that they are just not built to be transit friendly. Bringing the O-Train a bit closer only helps marginally. Won't, for example, help with the commutes of anyone coming from Kanata or Stittsville. And the sea of free parking surrounding all those offices strongly incentivizes driving. A 5 min longer bus ride to Moodie instead of Eagleson is not what determines whether a person uses transit there.

[Al Ski]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Are you under the impression that just because we don't whine incessantly about the flaws of our transit systems and pine hopelessly for European transit, that we're not aware of the deficiencies?

If so, you're wrong. Especially on this forum. There's plenty of folks here who are well travelled and have lived in multiple places to know what constitutes good and bad transit. Heck, the fact that you think Canadian transit is the worst is comical to me having lived in exurban California. Or hell, ask some sitting on an old Central or District Line train in London, in July, what they think of all the air conditioned subway cars on the TTC.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/central-line-temperature-london-weather-heatwave

Plenty of us just find it tiresome and unhelpful to exclusively focus on the negatives and never discuss paths to improvement or positive developments. You gotta grow out of the brooding teen stage of life at some point.

You're comical! When did I say it's 'the worst'? Never, maybe?

And saying that we're slightly better than worst case scenarios in other places proves what, exactly?

That's the problem with this loser country - we don't strive to be the best, we're simply content to be a bit better than the worst.

If you pick one of our 6 subway lines and compare it to the worst of the 60 subway lines in New York or London (and it's always New York or London for English-speaking Canadians because that's their entire galaxy, that's all they ever think about).

So we have air conditioning on all 2 of our subway lines and you don't on 2 of your 11 - we win!

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Al Ski

That's the problem with this loser country - we don't strive to be the best, we're simply content to be a bit better than the worst.

Cool. Why do you still live here then? Couldn't cut it among the winners in Berlin?

Originally Posted by Al Ski

If you pick one of our 6 subway lines and compare it to the worst of the 60 subway lines in New York or London (and it's always New York or London for English-speaking Canadians because that's their entire galaxy, that's all they ever think about).

So we have air conditioning on all 2 of our subway lines and you don't on 2 of your 11 - we win!

Apparently only Canadian transit is bad. We get it. You can't see flaws anywhere else. You've apparently not discovered how poor those old systems are for anybody that is handicapped. Just try going around London with a heavy suitcase. You might learn something. I can't even imagine a wheelchair. You've also not discovered how poor frequencies can be in New York despite having all those lines. But sure, to a new convert, their gods have no flaws. Like I said the zeal of a new convert.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Al Ski

You're comical! When did I say it's 'the worst'? Never, maybe?

And saying that we're slightly better than worst case scenarios in other places proves what, exactly?

That's the problem with this loser country - we don't strive to be the best, we're simply content to be a bit better than the worst.

If you pick one of our 6 subway lines and compare it to the worst of the 60 subway lines in New York or London (and it's always New York or London for English-speaking Canadians because that's their entire galaxy, that's all they ever think about).

So we have air conditioning on all 2 of our subway lines and you don't on 2 of your 11 - we win!

Many of the largest cities in Canada have large multi-billion dollar transit expansion projects underway. We are striving to make really meaningful improvements which is exactly the appropriate goal. I don't think anyone on the forum has said that Canada's transit systems are good enough and don't need any expansion or improvement. But worrying about outdoing some place with 11 metro lines isn't productive because it doesn't directly relate to our own situation and the experience of our own transit riders. And more importantly it isn't an attainable target which is extremely important with goal setting. London developed its metro system over almost two centuries, not with the goal of having 11 metro lines or outdoing someone, but incrementally in response to important transportation problems.

We need to push for individual transportation problems to be solved, and while we can look abroad for best practices, evaluative comparisons don't really help much. In other words, if someone were to identify that travel between two places in one of our cities was too time consuming and difficult and arguing that this problem should be solved, it's good to point to infrastructure elsewhere that might make doing so more affordable. But it would be bad to just look abroad without that context and say, "They have something we don't so we suck". The first scenario is productive and the second isn't.

[Coldrsx]

Neat little diagram of the proposed Prairie Sky Gondola for Edmonton.


https://twitter.com/prairieskygondo/status/1540138188622032901

[biguc]

That gondola is pretty exciting. How close to reality is it?

And what's the story with the power plant area? It seems like it could become a really cool spot with event space, shops, makers' space, and housing. Especially if that gondola actually happens.

[J.OT13]

Agreed, the gondola is pretty awesome. It's a great alternative between two transit lines kilometers apart. Love to see some many stops, and not just a short trip across the rived.

[Truenorth00]

Smacks of the Emirates Cable Car in London.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by biguc

That gondola is pretty exciting. How close to reality is it?

And what's the story with the power plant area? It seems like it could become a really cool spot with event space, shops, makers' space, and housing. Especially if that gondola actually happens.

*I should declare that I am a (small) shareholder of the project.

The leadership group and partners involved in this project are top notch and cover a wide swath of experience both locally and beyond.

Learn more here:
https://www.prairieskygondola.com

We go to Council in August (I believe) that will require support for land partnerships, air rights and encroachments.

IF/WHEN that gets approval, additional consultation with indigenous groups, community groups and neighbours needs to take place.

There is also a need to secure a partnership for integration with Edmonton Transit Service.

Following that, final design and formal applications followed by construction. The hope is 2026 for operation.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by biguc

And what's the story with the power plant area? It seems like it could become a really cool spot with event space, shops, makers' space, and housing. Especially if that gondola actually happens.

Stalled for far too many years and for a variety of complicated reasons.

Obviously this area is ripe for a power plant anchored cultural/food/entertainment area.



Recently, the base infrastructure is being reconsidered for realignment and in preparation for much of this.







I fully expect this to gain momentum in partnership with the gondola project, the 'touch the water promenade' and a tie-in to the provincial legislature grounds.

Here's hoping

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

*I should declare that I am a (small) shareholder of the project.

The leadership group and partners involved in this project are top notch and cover a wide swath of experience both locally and beyond.

Learn more here:
https://www.prairieskygondola.com

Interesting, I had no idea that this was a private sector undertaking.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by esquire

Interesting, I had no idea that this was a private sector undertaking.

100%

Significant dollars have been put forward/raised thus far to get this to this point.

Vital to this proposal's success is some sort of agreement and integration with ETS.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Stalled for far too many years and for a variety of complicated reasons.

Obviously this area is ripe for a power plant anchored cultural/food/entertainment area.


Recently, the base infrastructure is being reconsidered for realignment and in preparation for much of this.



I fully expect this to gain momentum in partnership with the gondola project, the 'touch the water promenade' and a tie-in to the provincial legislature grounds.

Here's hoping

Yeah the gondola should be a boon for development in the area. I didn't realize most of the area behind the power plant was still utilities though. Any chance of relocating that stuff to somewhere less central?

[Coldrsx]

^negative. I recall sitting in a meeting about that option and it was in the $2B + range.

The water treatment facility is in an unfortunate area, but there are very few options.

The electrical facility substation will likely be screened or enclosed to some degree (I've suggested a glowing box).

There are UG water storage tanks as well just SE of the baseball diamond that will be permitted to have 'active uses' on top and so we anticipate sport, off leash, maybe some community garden space.

The bigger issue will be indigenous claims/rights/land for this was one of the original meeting places in the area and various archaeological finds and impacts.

A portion of this area is also higher flood risk which might need some mitigation.

[J.OT13]

A glowing glass box for the sub-station could be cool. Reminds me of the Federal Government's or Zibi's District Energy plants that are/will be on full display.


Tunney's - https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/biens-prop...ecologisation-greener/esap-pase-eng.html


Zibi - https://www.electricity.ca/programs/centre-of-excellence/zibi-community-utility-district-energy-system/

Water treatment facility could be improved by reducing/reorganizing parking and adding some greenery. Our Lemieux Island facility is a good example:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lemieu...1279941b0!8m2!3d45.4152054!4d-75.7292795

The facility's architecture, history and contributions could be highlighted. The heritage plant is an asset in the public realm compared to today's utilitarian designs.

[Coldrsx]

Bingo.

Something that is safe, functional and interesting to look at.

A value add versus an encumbrance.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Agreed, the gondola is pretty awesome. It's a great alternative between two transit lines kilometers apart. Love to see some many stops, and not just a short trip across the rived.

Coldrsx's point about about integration with ETS is part of why this project is so interesting. Makes it a real piece of transit, not just a gimmick.

Speaking of which, I don't know what's up with the High Level streetcar but it would be great if that were properly realized as a real piece of transit too (by extending it to McEwan, for example). It would make Gateway and Whyte a mini hub for getting around central Edmonton.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by biguc

Coldrsx's point about about integration with ETS is part of why this project is so interesting. Makes it a real piece of transit, not just a gimmick.

Speaking of which, I don't know what's up with the High Level streetcar but it would be great if that were properly realized as a real piece of transit too (by extending it to McEwan, for example). It would make Gateway and Whyte a mini hub for getting around central Edmonton.

I remember taking the High Level Streetcar for fun some years back, and it definitely occurred to me that it would be super convenient if it ran as an actual operating transit service from around McEwan to Old Strathcona. It directly connects fairly busy, high density areas that are not well connected by existing transit routes... you basically need to transfer to the LRT, or take a winding bus route instead.

I wonder if it's on ETS' radar at all?