CHICAGO | General Discussions

[SamInTheLoop]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

i never said that a $420K was affordable for the average chicago family, i was merely countering your asinine assertion that "a half a million gets you a 3 bedroom with garbage schools".

you can easily buy a 3 bedroom home in this city in a neighborhood with good schools for under half a million if you're willing to do a little research.

For sure.

However, it does bring me back to the more important question of what type of housing affordability problem Chicago has. I do think it is somewhat of a problem. Is it a crisis, such as the the big coastal cities are having? No, it's not on that order. But, I would be very interested to see what affordable housing options look like for those in the middle-third of household income distribution, in terms of paying less than 35% of income on housing expense, with respect to schools, crime and transit. Always have an open mind as to real data.

And, please - no nonsense such as the "Chicago has no affordability problem - look at all the $95,000 homes you can buy in x food dessert neighborhoods", or "nobody's entitiled to live in the Gold Coast, you buy or rent in the neighborhood you can afford, and pick yourselves up by the bootstraps". Let's keep all of your libertarian fever dreams locked away and have a real conversation.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop

And, please - no nonsense such as the "Chicago has no affordability problem - look at all the $95,000 homes you can buy in x food dessert neighborhoods", or "nobody's entitiled to live in the Gold Coast, you buy or rent in the neighborhood you can afford..............Let's keep all of your libertarian fever dreams locked away and have a real conversation.

^ Why aren't those valid arguments?

You brushed them off but haven't given any sound, reasonable explanation that counters those points.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop

This is just patently dumb. Poor-performing schools perform poorly because the parents don't care about their kids. Nice.

Hey Stevie Wonder, read what I wrote, I never said that....

Regardless, are you arguing that parents involvement in their child's education doesn't impact the likelihood of their child succeeding? Is it a coincidence that top performing schools just so happen to be in more expensive areas of the city? Do the "wealthy schools" get the good teachers and the "poor schools" get the bad teachers? Or is it possible that there is more parent involvement in wealthy areas?

[moorhosj]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ Why aren't those valid arguments?

You brushed them off but haven't given any sound, reasonable explanation that counters those points.

I think it has been covered a number of times, it generalizes the number of factors that influence where people live. Specifically, in neighborhoods with well-performing schools, it is hard to find a reasonably priced 3-bedroom rental near transit.

Nobody is saying that people are entitled to this type of lifestyle, we are simply pointing out that there may very well be an affordability issue involved in this part of the housing market. It is perfectly reasonable to worry about the affordability of a solid education for the median family in Chicago.

If we can be shown that there is an affordability issue in certain neighborhoods, it may very-well add to the push for allowing coach houses and granny flats. That would fit the goals of pretty much everyone on this board.

[SamInTheLoop]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ Why aren't those valid arguments?

You brushed them off but haven't given any sound, reasonable explanation that counters those points.

You're kidding, right?

[SamInTheLoop]

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

Hey Stevie Wonder, read what I wrote, I never said that....

Regardless, are you arguing that parents involvement in their child's education doesn't impact the likelihood of their child succeeding? Is it a coincidence that top performing schools just so happen to be in more expensive areas of the city? Do the "wealthy schools" get the good teachers and the "poor schools" get the bad teachers? Or is it possible that there is more parent involvement in wealthy areas?

That is actually what you wrote. Paraphrased, accurately.

[SamInTheLoop]

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

It's also a bit of the Chicken and the Egg situation too, more often than not, CPS schools are "garbage" because of the parents, not the teachers. For example, if you picked up whatever k-8 school is in Englewood and plopped it at Southport and Grace (where Blaine is), with the same teachers, it would overnight be one of the top performing schools in the city...because the vast majority of parents give a damn about their child's education in the Blaine boundaries.

Re-read your post.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop

You're kidding, right?

Of course I'm not kidding. Once again, what is your basis for dismissing those points?

[SamInTheLoop]

Originally Posted by moorhosj

I think it has been covered a number of times, it generalizes the number of factors that influence where people live. Specifically, in neighborhoods with well-performing schools, it is hard to find a reasonably priced 3-bedroom rental near transit.

Nobody is saying that people are entitled to this type of lifestyle, we are simply pointing out that there may very well be an affordability issue involved in this part of the housing market. It is perfectly reasonable to worry about the affordability of a solid education for the median family in Chicago.

If we can be shown that there is an affordability issue in certain neighborhoods, it may very-well add to the push for allowing coach houses and granny flats. That would fit the goals of pretty much everyone on this board.

I would say that this is even much too narrow (3-bedroom rental near transit). I would say there is an affordability problem for a wider range of housing located in relatively safe neighborhoods with average to above average performing schools. Again, affordable in terms of a household making around the median income that would devote less than roughly 35% of income to housing expense (not in terms of, well 400k, or 600k seems affordable to me and some people I know, so I'll go with that).

[SamInTheLoop]

Originally Posted by Stockerzzz

^ It doesn't comply with his victim mentality so it must be blocked out.

Lol. I have a victim mentality.

[SamInTheLoop]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Of course I'm not kidding. Once again, what is your basis for dismissing those points?

C'mon. Seriously, man? They are not based in data and good faith analysis. They're just straw men, and bad ones at that.

This is why the questions need to be framed in a way that makes sense. Reasonable conditions need to be placed: in ~average crime census tracts, in school zones that perform at least at average levels, etc. Throw in transit access maybe. Stating there is cheap housing in the ghetto, therefore Chicago can't have an affordability issue just makes everything dumber and less productive.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop

C'mon. Seriously, man? They are not based in data and good faith analysis. They're just straw men, and bad ones at that.

This is why the questions need to be framed in a way that makes sense. Reasonable conditions need to be placed: in ~average crime census tracts, in school zones that perform at least at average levels, etc. Throw in transit access maybe. Stating there is cheap housing in the ghetto, therefore Chicago can't have an affordability issue just makes everything dumber and less productive.

You've made no argument here that I can see. All you did was to call neighborhoods with affordable housing "the ghetto" and essentially suggested that we aren't allowed to count those in any conversation.

Plus, you're setting your own conditions when I'm not sure you have any license to.

Does Chicago have an affordable housing crisis or not? It's a simple question: yes or no

Well, as long as I can find vast swaths of the city with homes under $50k, it doesn't. Period. Talk to me when that changes, without trying to move goal posts around.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop

That is actually what you wrote. Paraphrased, accurately.

For the second time, re-read what I wrote...

I said this:

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

The vast majority of parents give a damn about their child's education in the Blaine boundaries.

You paraphrased that I said this:

Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop

Poor-performing schools perform poorly because the parents don't care about their kids.

Where did I say anything about not caring about their kids? You have CNN ears.

[moorhosj]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

You've made no argument here that I can see. All you did was to call neighborhoods with affordable housing "the ghetto" and essentially suggested that we aren't allowed to count those in any conversation.

Plus, you're setting your own conditions when I'm not sure you have any license to.

Does Chicago have an affordable housing crisis or not? It's a simple question: yes or no

Well, as long as I can find vast swaths of the city with homes under $50k, it doesn't. Period. Talk to me when that changes, without trying to move goal posts around.

Using this logic, there is no affordability crisis anywhere in the US because when we take the US as a whole there are plenty of affordable homes. San Francisco doesn’t have an affordability crisis because there are affordable homes in Flint, MI.

In reality, we can look at the problem in multiple dimensions because that’s how reality exists. Nobody has argued if there are cheap homes available. What people are saying is that there MAY be an affordability issue for a certain segment (in this case, the median family).

You won’t even entertain the idea that it might be unaffordable for the median Chicago family to afford rent in a safe area with decent schools. Keep in mind, nobody is demanding that this exists, just mentioning that it is possible. Instead, you are planting the goal posts and telling everyone else they need to abide by that definition.

The $50k home doesn’t do much for the family of 4 on a $50k income who wants to live in a safe neighborhood and send their kids to a school, admitting that doesn’t make landlords bad people, it acknowledges reality. Whether we should worry about this type of affordability is a different discussion, but we can’t get there because you won’t even entertain the concept.

[Vlajos]

Talk to CPS teachers about teaching in poverty stricken neighborhoods. Virtually no parent shows up for any school event, not even parent teacher meetings. There is little to no parental support in many of these households. There is very little teachers can do in these situations. And again CPS school funding formula is very fair giving schools the same funding per student. CPS started providing extra "equity" funds to poor under enrolled schools under Rahm. Money is not the problem.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by moorhosj

Using this logic, there is no affordability crisis anywhere in the US because when we take the US as a whole there are plenty of affordable homes. San Francisco doesn’t have an affordability crisis because there are affordable homes in Flint, MI.

How is that my logic? SF and Flint are different cities thousands of miles apart.

There are homes for under $50k in the City of Chicago today. Same city.

Thus, Chicago doesn’t have an affordable housing crisis. Does it have a crime crisis? Yes. Does it have a gang crisis? Yes. Does it have a “bad school” crisis? No. I don’t blame the buildings, the teachers, or the principals for any of it.

[OrdoSeclorum]

I'm not quite following this argument, but there are about 1,700 single family homes for sale in Chicago right now between $175,000 and $309,000. Homes that look like the one my mom grew up in.

Many of those are in questionable neighborhoods. But LOTS of them are in Albany Park, Avondale, Portage Park, Humboldt Park and Beverly. They aren't all hip, but I've got friends with kids who live in those neighborhoods. And there are three bedroom condos all over the city for less than $309,000.

If two teachers can buy a single family home in a safe, walkable neighborhood, your city doesn't have an affordability crisis. If schools continue to improve and crime drops more, we might have an affordability storm on the horizon. But Chicago can still open the spigot and allow a lot more apartment construction outside of the central area if we become supply constrained.

[glowrock]

Honestly, this whole discussion/argument hurts my brain. I see many people's points here. I'd say many of them are valid (pro and against "affordability crisis"), but I'd say housing costs are potentially less a result of good/bad schools but really more concerning transit access. There ARE plenty of places fairly cheap in my area and just to the west (Belmont Gardens/West Avondale), but you're essentially out of reasonable transit access at that point, especially much west of the Kennedy and between, say, Fullerton and Addison or Irving Park.

Kind of time consuming to get into the Loop area, even from here since it's a bus to train situation.

But anyhow, can't we keep some kind of decorum around here? Sheesh!

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Handro]

Originally Posted by glowrock

Honestly, this whole discussion/argument hurts my brain. I see many people's points here. I'd say many of them are valid (pro and against "affordability crisis"), but I'd say housing costs are potentially less a result of good/bad schools but really more concerning transit access. There ARE plenty of places fairly cheap in my area and just to the west (Belmont Gardens/West Avondale), but you're essentially out of reasonable transit access at that point, especially much west of the Kennedy and between, say, Fullerton and Addison or Irving Park.

Kind of time consuming to get into the Loop area, even from here since it's a bus to train situation.

But anyhow, can't we keep some kind of decorum around here? Sheesh!

Aaron (Glowrock)

This. My gf lived in Norwood Park area for a while. It took her over an hour to get to work on using transit (bus, Metra or blue line, then walking or another bus). It's the same in neighborhoods all over the city that don't have quick CTA rail access.

Faster to get to work from some middle ring suburbs at that point.

[Steely Dan]

transit in chicago is really only efficient if you live next to a rail stop and work right next to a rail stop on that same line.

throw in a bus ride or a rail-to-rail transfer or a 15 minute walk to/from the station, and the whole fucking clock explodes.



from our home in lincoln square, i can ride my bike the 8 miles up to my job in downtown evanston in ~35 minutes, door-to-door (unless i'm fighting a nasty headwind).

alternatively, i can ride the brown line over to belmont and transfer to the purple line up to evanston. door-to-door, ~45 minutes depending on transfer time (big wildcard!)

alternatively, i can ride the lawrence bus to the ravenswood metra station and ride the UP-N up to downtown evanston. door to door, ~45 minutes because my office schedule doesn't neatly align with metra's schedule.



i just ride my bike.

it's free and faster!