Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

The six cities would be...?
- Vancouver
- Edmonton
- Regina
- Toronto
- Montreal
- Halifax

I am not sure about Toronto since Toronto/Hamilton will be hosting the Pan-Am Games from July 10 - 26, 2015. I am not sure whether Toronto hosting the Pan-Am Games in 2015 will be considered to be a plus or minus with regards to Halifax getting selected as a host (I imagine that Toronto would still be a favorite as a host city due to its population). As a reference, the 2011 FIFA Women's Cup is being held in Germany from June 26 - July 17, 2011 but I would think that if Canada were selected to host in 2015 then it might be best to avoid an overlap so it would have to be held later in the year.

Personally, I think that since Toronto/Hamilton will be getting federal funding for the 2015 Pan-Am Games, it is more likely that Halifax would get funding for the 2015 FIFA Cup. But only if the municipal and provincial governments are committed to it - that is a big "IF". We won't have to wait very long since I read that the host country will be announced in February 2011. If Canada is selected then Halifax will have to announce its intentions soon afterward.

My list would be similar to yours. Regina will want to be involved since they are trying to get funding for their new stadium proposal. Winnipeg might also try to get involved since they need additional funding for their new stadium.

[c-way-dude]

Ottawa will also likely try to be a host city. The new stadium at Lansdowne Park is going to be capable of hosting soccer.
I can't see an event like this coming to Canada without Toronto being one of the host cities.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Fares should design and build the stadium and get all the corporate sponsors on board.

I say lets cut government completely out of this.

Its pathetic that merely universities in Ontario, Quebec, and western Canada have better stadiums than Halifax as a 400,000 person municipality.

Maybe instead of spending 40 million on rinks in bedford, we could have had a signficant contribution from the city.

[halifaxboyns]

One of the things I see happening in Municipal Infrastructure planning (it's happened here in Calgary) is that many times council's will ask for a list of projects to be done, like the one Fenwick found.

In Calgary's case; they broke the list up into vital projects (transportation, core infrastructure (like police/fire/EMS)) and then quality of life projects (libraries, schools, rinks, recreation centres, etc.). Often times quality of life projects get a lower weighting on the priority scale than those of vital infrastructure.

The key, for me, is balance. Yes, we all need to get around and to be able to get to work, flush our toilets, get water, etc. But those who have families also need places to walk their dogs, take their kids swimming/skating - it's about a complete community. Yes, an ice rink doesn't really generate a lot of money (certainly not enough to offset operating costs I suspect), but the same can be said of parks and playgrounds - yet these are important for complete communities. I'm sure Point Pleasant Park doesn't make anywhere near what it costs to run.

It comes back to balance. It also comes back to having a costing formula that puts more of the cost for infrastructure on developers in new communities as well - something which Calgary put developers on notice about. Currently roads are funded by developers, but things like overpasses and interchanges are cost shared - that looks like it will change in Calgary and it probably should in HRM too.

In the case of a stadium - big projects are costed over long periods so that the yearly cost is lower. I don't think you can avoid government assistance in this; but I do think you can get the corporate sponsorship and naming rights side setup and then use additional government money to cover the rest. Naming rights can be very lucrative - the naming rights for the Saddledome just got redone recently and from what I understand it was quite a lot of $.

[halifaxboyns]

On a seperate note; I was hoping someone could help me. I was looking for the report that Trade Centre Ltd. had up on their website about the replacement Metro Centre (Metro Centre 2). There was something in it I wanted to have a look at, I'm not sure if you could help me fenwick but I seem to recall you had the link?

Thanks for your help (to anyone who can find it).

[fenwick16]

It is included in this report; staring at page 177/314 of the pdf file - https://conventioncentreinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Feasibility-Study-Vol-1.pdf

[Waye Mason]

I support a modest stadium. I think Moncton did it right, leveraging the existing site at UdeM and spending $17 million.

Here are my thoughts:

1 - when getting into a new line of business, you test the waters. We don't have any firm tenants at this time, other than the Huskies.
2 - we are not going to be able to afford an all weather stadium. Regina projects the new Mosaic stadium will be $390-$460 million.
3 - most stadium (stadia?) would hold 20-35K for a concert, maybe 40K, which is still too small for Rolling Stones level, and would not really address the issue of cost and weather that are the real challenges here. I wrote about that here http://halifaxpolitics.ca/2010/10/11/869/
4 - now for the positives - $17-25 million is not that much for a major Parks and Rec facility. We spent around $50 on the Canada Games Centre. If you look at other cities like Ottawa, Montreal, Regina, they all have football stadiums being used by university and/or parks and rec users, and the field without bleachers is available for just $150-160 an hour!
5 - While the private sector sponsorship would not really touch the cost ($1 million for naming rights in this region would be about it) the Ottawa model of renting the field to a private partner all winter and having them dome it is a great idea. Landsdowne has an air pressure bubble over theirs and you can go in an I think they have a driving range, among other things.


I think if this is approached in a non-scary non-ra ra way, everyday people will support it. Fixing Husky stadium, or plugging a decent modest facility into an area with minimal other facilities (Sackville? Cole Harbour?) would help sell it.

The key is not just upfront cost, it is also operating cost, which is why, and I know the suburbanites disagree, I think it should be at St Mary's. HRM has demonstrated again this week that it cannot budget to save its life, current council does not factor Total Cost of Ownership and life cycle costs into yearly budget debates, and now we are facing what has to be called a structural deficit.

Why this matters to the stadium is that the bigger and fancier and more specialized it is, the more it will cost to operate and maintain, and also, the less likely the revenue you are reasonably going to get out of it will cover the cost of operating.

I think a stadium that seats 15-20K, and can easily be expanded for CFL games is the way to go. If we land a team (Ottawa and Quebec City will get the expansion in my opinion, not us, but if we do), it is still only 9-11 home games per season, so expanding for those games for years is still reasonable.

The Alouettes example is important, they were ONLY really successful when they moved to Molson Stadium, which at the time sat 17,000. Why would we aim for bigger than that to start in a market 1/10 the size?

If the franchise comes, if it is supported, if it is viable, we can talk about bigger. Lets just get it started with something affordable.

[fenwick16]

I think most of your points above sound reasonable. I think that everybody agrees that an all-weather stadium is too expensive. However, having just the seats covered would make a stadium more viable for concerts and sports events.

Based on comments by past and present CFL commissioners, Halifax could get a CFL team if an owner can be found and a stadium with 25,000 permanent seats were built. Building a stadium with even 15,000 - 20,000 permanent seats might be enough to attract an owner since it could be expanded in the future. As we all know, based on past events, these are big obstacles to overcome.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

I support a modest stadium. I think Moncton did it right, leveraging the existing site at UdeM and spending $17 million.

Here are my thoughts:

1 - when getting into a new line of business, you test the waters. We don't have any firm tenants at this time, other than the Huskies.
2 - we are not going to be able to afford an all weather stadium. Regina projects the new Mosaic stadium will be $390-$460 million.
3 - most stadium (stadia?) would hold 20-35K for a concert, maybe 40K, which is still too small for Rolling Stones level, and would not really address the issue of cost and weather that are the real challenges here. I wrote about that here http://halifaxpolitics.ca/2010/10/11/869/
4 - now for the positives - $17-25 million is not that much for a major Parks and Rec facility. We spent around $50 on the Canada Games Centre. If you look at other cities like Ottawa, Montreal, Regina, they all have football stadiums being used by university and/or parks and rec users, and the field without bleachers is available for just $150-160 an hour!
5 - While the private sector sponsorship would not really touch the cost ($1 million for naming rights in this region would be about it) the Ottawa model of renting the field to a private partner all winter and having them dome it is a great idea. Landsdowne has an air pressure bubble over theirs and you can go in an I think they have a driving range, among other things.

You have summarized how Moncton went about acquiring our stadium very well.

There was interest in establishing a mid-sized athletic (and performance) venue for the city. The opportunity to for the city to host the IAAF World Junior Track and Field Championships presented itself and the city was able to use this event to leverage funding from the feds and the province.

There is no football program (yet) at U de M, and it was uncertain what would become of the facility after the world championships. Although there has been interest by the city in the CFL for some time, it would have been pure folly for the city to build a massive stadium in the vain interest of attracting a CFL franchise.

A go slow approach therefore was decided upon and a (modest) 10,000 seat stadium expandable to 20,000 seats (and ultimately 25-30,000 seats) was built.

By doing this, (and by taking a long term lease and making the university the actual proprietor of the facility), the city reduced it's level of risk and also it's financial liability.

Ultimately, the new stadium proved it's value because it allowed the CFL to stage a regular season game in the Maritimes for the first time. In all likelyhood there will be an announcement during the Grey Cup weekend that this regular season game will become an annual event for 3-5 years.

The new stadium will be busy for other things too.
- Canadian Track & Field Championships in 2013 & 2014
- Uteck Bowl in 2011, 2013 & 2015 (I find this very unfortunate - this event belongs in Halifax)
- U de M likely will develop it's own CIS football program.
- The city is exploring a men's national team soccer exhibition game.
- The city is exploring the possibility of being a venue for women's world cup soccer in 2015.
- The city and university are open to the idea of using the facility for medium sized concerts up to 20,000 people or so.

So, having proven that the facility can be successful, it makes it easier in the future for the city to justify a permanent expansion and upgrading of the stadium down the road. It makes it much easier for the citizens of the city to buy into the process by knowing what the benefits of the facility will be.

By going slow, it makes the whole process more palatable and would likely reduce the risk of having reactionary wingnuts stoking public fears over $75M, 40,000 seat white elephants that will never be used.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

If the franchise comes, if it is supported, if it is viable, we can talk about bigger. Lets just get it started with something affordable.

To be honest, I'm not sure that $25M is a much easier sell than $40M or $50M (or more). The big question seems to be whether or not it's on the government radar as a real project. For them, projects in the $50M seem like natural "mid-sized" projects that don't raise eyebrows. Big projects in Halifax that get a lot of attention seem to be in the hundreds of millions range (e.g. Nova Centre). The CWGs collapsed because the three levels of government were looking at over $1B in spending (and I think it's really unfortunate that the stadium was also dropped back then - it might have been possible to salvage).

From the perspective of the federal government a more expensive stadium might even be more desirable as a "regional" facility.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by someone123

To be honest, I'm not sure that $25M is a much easier sell than $40M or $50M (or more).

Well, speaking for myself, I really really hope that given the financial state of the city and the province we can see the difference.

The easiest way to get a stadium is to do Husky, just like UdeM, in part because if we build another stadium somewhere else, we are not just spending 25-50-150 million to build another stadium, but we will still going to need to renovate the falling down Husky stadium, a dangerous site that is an embarrassment in its current state.

Originally Posted by someone123

From the perspective of the federal government a more expensive stadium might even be more desirable as a "regional" facility.

No one would really think that, though yes they may use that as a justification. I hope that the lack of market demand and common sense might prevail.

I really don't think the city and the province can afford another expensive facility to operate, it would be a real shame if a large facility was built.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

The easiest way to get a stadium is to do Husky, just like UdeM, in part because if we build another stadium somewhere else, we are not just spending 25-50-150 million to build another stadium, but we will still going to need to renovate the falling down Husky stadium, a dangerous site that is an embarrassment in its current state.

That's exactly what I've been saying. Huskies Stadium needs work, it needs to be replaced. That should be the starting point. Build something on the same site with 15k permanent seats, with expandability, grab a hold of a few more CFL exhibition or regular season games, and start with that. We know the site is not ideal, and possibly not large enough for a big permanent stadium in the 25-30k seat range, but it still needs to be done. It's a good first step, and keeps us on the radar.

[fenwick16]

I think that Huskies stadium would be a good option if St. Mary's University is willing to build at least 12,000 seats along one sideline since there isn't much room along the other 3 sides. Then it might be possible to squeeze in 13,000 additional seats in the future for the CFL (seats would also have to be added above the Tower Athletic Centre in order to get it up to 25,000 seats). Before the municpality, province and federal government get involved it would be necessary to determine if SMU is willing to do that. The other question is whether or not SMU is willing to allow the stadium to be used for municipal events such as concerts.

In any case, I strongly believe that a stadium should be built so that it can be shared with St. Mary's University. Maybe it would be necessary to build it at Gorsebrook field which will be more costly since it would likely require buying some private properties along Inglis Street. If building a suitable 15,000 - 20,000 seat stadium at Gorsebrook would cost $50 million then I would agree with someone123 - it would be best to spend more money and build something that will be suitable for the CFL in the future.

I really don't buy the "financial state" of the city argument. The city manages to balance its books each year (as required), and the property taxes are not high when compared to other cities. Municipality spending keeps increasing because the municipality has been growing in population at about 1.3% per year. In addition, there is global inflation that the city has no control over. The growth of the municipality also results in increases in tax revenues which is often ignored in media reports. The spending shortfalls seem to be growing pains, not a sign of financial irresponsibility by the municipality. As the municipality grows then residents will expect larger, more expensive capital projects to meet the needs of a larger municipality.

[halifaxboyns]

I'd have to agree with fenwick. Calgary is looking at a 60 million$ defecit; with a 6.9% property tax increase. Now apparently administration has found the $ to balance the books, but there is $30 million more in cuts to reduce the property tax hike.

I have to say I've had great fun sending Bruce Devane into a near heart attack all day on this very issue and his position on the convention centre. I've debated that based on his logic, because the city is so 'financially strapped' you can't build anything and he's arguing that you could still build a hospital. He doesn't get it and the rants became boring - needless to say I think people forget that HRM and Nova Scotia are doing economic development when they contribute to things like this.

I have to agree with most - lets aim for something upgradable and reasonable in cost. What about the Dalhousie field? I thought it was a football field - couldn't it be upgraded? Surely you could do air rights maybe?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I have to agree with most - lets aim for something upgradable and reasonable in cost. What about the Dalhousie field? I thought it was a football field - couldn't it be upgraded? Surely you could do air rights maybe?

There is even less room at the Dalhousie football field. Since they are currently not in the CIS, they don't need much in terms of a stadium. If Dalhousie University did have a CIS football program then it would make economic sense to have a shared stadium for SMU, Dalhousie and a future CFL team.

[fenwick16]

A stadium would fit here quite nicely and would be convenient for use by the SMU Huskies - http://www.bing.com/Maps/?v=2&cp=rf5ny49...where1=Halifax%2C%20NS&q=halifax%2C%20ns . These tracks would have previously serviced the sheds along the waterfront (which are now the Cunard Centre, Farmers Market, and Pier 21). I think that the Waterfront Development Corp Ltd owns this land?

The Via tracks could be left where they are. If a major expansion were desired, then stands could even be built over the Via tracks (so there is lots of room for it to become a large stadium at some time in the future. There aren't many residents in the area to oppose it. I know this site was brought up previously and some people said that it has poor vehicular access - but couldn't people park at Scotia Square and other downtown locations and then have shuttle buses to the stadium? (most people could walk to downtown parking lots which would not be heavily used during sports events). I like this site better than the DND Willow Park site since it is closer to one possible tenant - SMU Huskies. Since sports events are normally held during the weekend and evenings, traffic would not be at rush hour volumes.

The Huskies could then keep their field and track and use the space where the current stands are for other purposes. Since SMU seems to be short on space, they might actually like the idea. Then if Dalhousie gets back into the CIS, they could use it also (It is actually very close to their Sexton campus, i.e. engineering/archiotecture campus). However, if St Mary's University would build a large stadium on their campus then that would be even better.

This is a cropped version of MaMahon Stadium (the upper rows are cut off) that I posted about a year ago shown at this site.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

A stadium would fit here quite nicely and would be convenient for use by the SMU Huskies

Have you been to the Farmers Market on a Sunday? If you built a Stadium there you cover almost all the parking, and you still have a single 2 lane road servicing the area. That would be crazy.

None of this is likely to happen if it costs more than 20 mil. http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Ottawa+pulls+support+Edmonton+Expo/3867429/story.html

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Have you been to the Farmers Market on a Sunday? If you built a Stadium there you cover almost all the parking, and you still have a single 2 lane road servicing the area. That would be crazy.

None of this is likely to happen if it costs more than 20 mil. http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Ottawa+pulls+support+Edmonton+Expo/3867429/story.html

So you are comparing a multi-billion dollar Expo to a $20 million dollar plus stadium? Do you expect to maintain any credibility with such a comparison?

Regarding the location near the harbour, people could park in the numerous downtown parking spots and walk (or take a shuttle bus). The location that I mentioned is merely blocks away from the SMU Stadium - how can you honestly state that you favour the renovation of SMU stadium but state that building a stadium just a few blocks away would be crazy?

I read your "article" and it would only make sense to people opposed to government spending and thus opposed to a stadium. Based on your article, you are obviously against spending money on a stadium. Wouldn't it be more honest to state your true opinions - or have you changed your mind since that time? How can you justify these opinions - http://halifaxpolitics.ca/2010/10/11/869/; You state that large concerts don't occur in Toronto - explain that? Based on your previous post - you want people to believe that the CFL won't select Halifax - so just spend a small amount of money to renovate SMU Stadium.

[Northend Guy]

Just for the heck of it, thought I would throw out another idea for a stadium location. If someone has already suggested this, then I apologize in advance -I just don't feeling like trolling the entire thread.

I was thing of the undeveloped area bounded by the 103, 102, NW Arm Drive and St. Margaret's Bay Rd. This seems to be at a central location (for non-city dwellers to get to as well as for city dwellers to have reasonable access to) It would have ready access from several main arteries without tying up traffic too much. It would also be a reasonable visible spot, given its location directly adjacent to highways, & on the top of the hill. I would also expect that there is enough area here to accomodate a bus terminal, plenty of parking & lots of other spinoff services (restaurants, sports bars, etc.)

I have attempted to attach a bing map of the area as well as the potential access points to the area. It is my first attempt at abing map, so if it doesn't work...sorry.

In case it doesn't work here is a list of the access points:
-at the Prospect Rd. intersection
-to/from NW Arm Drive (use old rail overpass for NW bound lane)
-Use old 103 rail over pass to access Chain Lake drive.

It could be this area is being preserved for something - but IMO it looks like a decent spot.


http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=rf5yn89pw75w&lvl=16&dir=0&sty=b&cid=11A8EB59401F5EF0!152

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

So you are comparing a multi-billion dollar Expo to a $20 million dollar plus stadium? Do you expect to maintain any credibility with such a comparison? .

Er, what?

I said if we ask for more than say $20 mil from the feds it ain't going to happen, so we agree right? $50 million (20 feds, 20 prov, 10 muni) is reasonable, maybe, given the belt tightening in Ottawa is demonstrating. So we agree, right?

Or alternately, if we must fight (I hope not) "Do you expect to maintain any credibility by mis-representing what I said?"

As to your other points - from the point of view of a concert, I don't think a stadium will help, and I feel really really comfortable saying that I am right about that, given my background in the music business as a concert promoter etc etc. I feel quite confident that my research into the operation of 3 other CFL or former CFL stadiums is accurate. I feel my assessment of the market size here is pretty right on, when it comes to concerts, anyway.

As per my last post here, I don't think we should build a stadium with as many seats as Montreal, I think the Moncton example is most cost effective, even if we got CFL, as there are 9-11 games a season on the home field for CFL. If we throw up 15K extra seats 9 times a year, that means the stadium is "right sized" for the other 356 days of the year.

So again, yes, I am in favour of a stadium, in the $17-25 million range, certainly no more than $50 mil. I think the under the bleacher/fieldhouse/office admin space would be a great addition or even small stand alone rec centre, or alternately we could just fix Husky, which needs to be fixed regardless, and is basically a deferred maintenance/investment in the millions that has to happen before someone hurts themselves.