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  #1641  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2010, 6:09 PM
DKaz DKaz is offline
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DELETED: It's so easy to get caught up in a bike vs. car slinging.

Last edited by DKaz; Dec 14, 2010 at 6:20 PM.
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  #1642  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2010, 7:19 PM
Porfiry Porfiry is offline
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Originally Posted by Stingray2004 View Post
Hornby is now a complete time-consuming mess between Robson and Georgia.
What do you mean "now"? I've never seen good traffic flow there, with most cars trying to turn onto Georgia and all the pedestrians getting in the way.
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  #1643  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2010, 9:06 PM
paradigm4 paradigm4 is offline
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Most people know what they are getting into by driving downtown. The smart commuters use the alternatives provided.
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  #1644  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2010, 7:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Stingray2004 View Post
Hornby is now a complete time-consuming mess between Robson and Georgia.

And the Dunsmuir bike lane with people now left in a proverbial parking lot on the other side of the barricade. Sigh. [/url]
A picture is certainly with a thousand words. That's my biggest beef with the bike lanes, they're sold as reducing emissions when they've done exactly the opposite. The increased idling and stop and start traffic they've created has far more greenhouse gasses than the figurative handful of extra cycling trips they've created. Dunsmuir was meant to be an efficient one-way through route from east of the City to downtown and/or through to the Lions Gate. Now its just a mess.
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  #1645  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2010, 7:04 PM
tybuilding tybuilding is offline
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I think Gordon Price sums it up best about the bike lanes:

Because we were building the city we wanted to be, not the city we were. And the same, I think, is true whenever we do a disruptive intervention that moves us closer to what we aspire to be
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  #1646  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2010, 7:29 PM
Porfiry Porfiry is offline
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That's my biggest beef with the bike lanes, they're sold as reducing emissions when they've done exactly the opposite.
I believe they're sold principally on the idea of safety, with the long-term goal of increasing bike mode share. Bikes are significantly more space efficient than cars (about 10X), so as commuters move from taking up space on road lanes to taking up space on bike lanes, space usage and congestion go down.

In other words, everytime a cyclist is created you are freeing up road space. That's a win for everybody, especially in a crowded city like Vancouver.
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  #1647  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2010, 8:15 PM
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mezzanine mezzanine is offline
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For me, at one level, I try to avoid polarization of bikes vs. cars and think of what Jarrett Walker said about Fundamental Attribution Error.. Ie, "My decisions are based on my situation, but other people's choices are based on their culture, the kind of people they are."

I got a bike ~ 1 year ago, namely for recreational riding. Now since last year, I have been able to make errands to costco, chinatown and the T+T with a bike, namely b/c the dunsmuir lane makes it ++easy. I am expecting that with this new lane, I can cycle more in and around downtown.

And this:



Prior to the c-line being built the north lane would be blocked anyway by parked highway buses being staged for the run back to white rock. as well, the shore club wasn't open at that time. IMO traffic worsened since they allowed stopping and parking in front of the st regis, and the shore club especially. if traffic flow was a priority, they should elimate that and have drop-offs only in the alley between st regis and the shore club.

As well, if you look at the foreground, a lot of the traffic is waiting for the right turn on Howe - there is some space in the lane west of granville - a situation that predated the bike lanes.
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  #1648  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2010, 8:42 PM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
A picture is certainly with a thousand words. That's my biggest beef with the bike lanes, they're sold as reducing emissions when they've done exactly the opposite. The increased idling and stop and start traffic they've created has far more greenhouse gasses than the figurative handful of extra cycling trips they've created. Dunsmuir was meant to be an efficient one-way through route from east of the City to downtown and/or through to the Lions Gate. Now its just a mess.
I guess Los Angelas should build more roads and highways then?
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  #1649  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2010, 8:44 PM
tybuilding tybuilding is offline
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Great Article from Copenhagenize.com: I think Vancouver has made great strides in promoting bicycle culture with the new infrastructure. Now lets hope for bike share soon.

Bicycle Commuting or Bicycle Culture?

Unless you've been living in a shoebox (or Prague) for the past three or so years you've probably noticed that cycling levels have been rising in cities all over the world.

This is a good thing.

Through this blog and through numerous journeys I've done to four continents over the past two years I've seen in great detail how various people in various countries and cultures are working to promote urban cycling.

One thing I've noticed by haven't really commented on at length is how cycling promotion is largely divided into two schools. Two genres, if you like. For the purpose of this article I'm not going to get into how far too much bicycle advocacy leans up against environmentalism with its preachy, jehovas witness messages about health and saving the planet and fun.

We're here to talk about these two aforementioned genres. They are:

Bicycle Commuting.

Bicycle Culture.

To many they may sound like the same thing, pedalling hand in hand down the cycle track. Unfortunately, there appears to be a clear-cut division. It seems more often than not to be a regional or even cultural divide.

Bicycle Commuting
I've determined that the majority of bicycle advocacy in the Anglo-Saxon New World (and to some extent the UK) is focused on this thing called Bicycle Commuting.

As though the main purpose of owning a bicycle is to get to and from work. This commuting angle really dominates the advocacy.

There are many volumes written about the influence of protestant immigrants on the work ethic prevalent in North America and Australasia, every bit of written by people who know more about it than I. I think what finally made me try to get this into words is a used book I bought last week. One I've read before, many years ago. The Protestant Ethic and The Spirit of Capitalism, based on a series of articles by Max Weber in 1904-05 and published in book form in 1920.

I sure as hell won't be getting into this subject, but it certainly seems to have left it's mark on modern bicycle advocacy in these Anglo-Saxon New World countries. The bicycle is for getting to and from work. Period. (or maybe Comma, since you can also use it for 'fun' on the weekends when you're not working)

If we look at this from an 'overcomplication of a simple thing' point-of-view, this Bicycle Commuting angle is hardly cycling simplified. It is primarily advocated by 'avid cyclists' who happily commute long distances to get to work. Which is great for them. Unfortunately, it sends signals to the population at large that Bicycle Commuting is a hard slog, a work-out, a sacrifice - however rewarding. It paints a picture of long commutes, even though 50% of Americans, for example, live within 8 km of their workplace.

I often look at urban cycling as a product and then look at how we're selling it, comparing it to most other marketing. Bicycle Commuting isn't really effective as mainstream marketing. It's sub-cultural. It involves a massive financial investment. Just look at this "Guide to Cycling in Winter" from the Toronto Star. It's so very silly, but I'm sure that it gives the sporting goods industry a hard on.

Then there's the focus on having showers at work. Something that people in established bicycle cultures find to be rather odd. Not having showers at work - I know many people here in Copenhagen who ride long distances and who have showers and changing rooms at work - but it really is a tiny minority.

The primary advocates of Bicycle Commuting like gear and showers at work. They like the hard-core aspect of cycling. The sportif aspect. They're 'cyclists' and that's great.

I am merely questioning the wisdom of focusing on Bicycle Commuting as the be all, end all of urban cycling. Especially when the voices who speak for this form of advocacy are largely sub-cultural. Never a good way to sell a product. Nor is only presenting The Bicycle has a way to get to work and not much else.

Bicycle Culture
So what is this Bicycle Culture genre?

It's something we're seeing blossom in many cities around the world. By saying "Bicycle Culture" I mean creating a culture of the bicycle where it becomes an inseparable part of daily life for regular citizens. Instead of something unique that stands out on the urban landscape.

I wrote about Behavourial Challenges regarding promoting urban cycling a while back and highlighted the massive growth in a city, for example, like Paris compared to cities where strong bicycle sub-cultures rule the debate.

Paris is only one positive example of emerging bicycle cities. I often point to Barcelona as another prime example. They've gone from basically 0% modal split for bicycles to 5% in about three years. Bordeaux has recently reached 10% modal split for bicycles in the city centre. Up from 1 or 2% three years ago. All over France, cities are increasing their bicycle traffic. Over 25 cities have bike share systems. Then there is Spain. Barcelona, San Sebastian, Seville, Zaragoza. Dublin springs to mind, too. Booming. Booming more than any city in North America or Australasia.

Bicycle Culture is planting seeds in a garden. Cultivating a bicycle orchard. Bicycle Commuting is a spear-headed "do it like we do, exactly like this" approach and the plethora of how-to guides splattered across the internet is a testament to that.

Bicycle Culture, on the other hand, lets people, as the seed metaphor suggests, grow their own foliage. Individual bushes and trees and orchids (uh oh... I can see I'm running out of vocabulary if I keep this flora theme up...) that all contribute to a greater garden.

Cities that are working towards cultivating a Bicycle Culture provide the necessary tools; safe, bicycle infrastructure, a good bike-share system, lower speed limits, flexible and favourable traffic laws for bicycles. But there is no real focus on "this is how to do it". In a Bicycle Culture the head gardeners figure that people already know how to ride a bicycle, are equipped with their own built-in risk perception and will figure out the rest. Even in cities with chaotic traffic culture.

(By the way, regarding traffic, I've driven (and cycled) in scores of European cities as well as scores of North American and Australian cities and I have always preferred driving in cities in North America or Australia than in the witches cauldrons of traffic that are the big cities of Europe. Oh, and while we're on an aside, isn't it interesting that there is no bicycle helmet promotion in these booming cities?)

In Bicycle Culture the bicycle is used to get to the shops, the café, the supermarket, the cinema. As well as to work. Just look at Paris. The pioneers who first embraced the Vélib' bike-share system came to the bicycle from the Metro. Following that typical human desire for the quickest way to get there. The Vélib' beat the Metro and, with accompanying infrastructure, it boomed. I've read that 2 million private bicycles have been sold in Paris since Vélib started. Just visit the city and see bicycles everywhere. See the future.

So. Which genre is most effective? You can probably figure out where I'm headed already. Without a doubt there are many people who have taken up urban cycling because of the Bicycle Commuting approach. Absolutely true. This NPR article is positive, for example. But if you didn't know anything about this funky cycling thing, the article would certainly give you a very narrow-minded impression of what cycling to work is or could be. Especially the "just try to hide the bike grease on your calf at meetings" remark near the end. Buy a chainguard, for god's sake. Or a more functional, comfortable bicycle. They're just as fast anyway.

If, on the other hand, we look at what cities are really booming - it is the cities that are planting gardens of Bicycle Culture. Keeping a simple idea simple, providing the basic tools and letting people do the rest. And within... let's say... five years... these cities will be light years ahead of the rest. Embarassingly so.

Like everything else, it's all about effective, mainstream marketing.
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  #1650  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2010, 12:10 AM
racc racc is offline
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
A picture is certainly with a thousand words. That's my biggest beef with the bike lanes, they're sold as reducing emissions when they've done exactly the opposite. The increased idling and stop and start traffic they've created has far more greenhouse gasses than the figurative handful of extra cycling trips they've created. Dunsmuir was meant to be an efficient one-way through route from east of the City to downtown and/or through to the Lions Gate. Now its just a mess.
Don't be ridiculous. While idling is not great, any incremental idling, if there actually is any, on Dunsmuir, represents only a tiny, tiny, portion of emissions in the city. Fast moving traffic, especially going uphill, emits more GHG's than slow moving traffic, so emissions might even be reduced on Dunsmuir.

The congestion on Dunsmuir, by regulating the flow of traffic, may actually cause traffic to move more smoothly on other streets connected to it. As well, it is only for a few blocks. If even a few people switch to cycling, this will reduce emissions by more than any amount that might be caused by increased idling.

99.999% of congestion, idling and emissions are caused by too much driving. If you are really concerned about this, then drive less and stop complaining about bike lanes.
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  #1651  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2010, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by tybuilding View Post
Great Article from Copenhagenize.com: I think Vancouver has made great strides in promoting bicycle culture with the new infrastructure. Now lets hope for bike share soon.
Interesting take on it. I often imagine that cycling critics believe cyclists to be masochistic oddballs. "Who in their right minds would actually WANT to cycle to work?!?!?", I picture them thinking.

The reality, for me at least, is that cycling is actually FUN. When I started cycling again after a decades-long hiatus I had a huge grin on my face because it really felt like I was a kid again. I arrive at my destination energized and invigorated, and I really feel like I'm alive.

Aside from a safe infrastructure, I think a lack of appreciation for this basic idea is the biggest obstacle to having a lot more cyclists on the road.
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  #1652  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2010, 12:32 AM
whatnext whatnext is offline
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Don't be ridiculous. While idling is not great, any incremental idling, if there actually is any, on Dunsmuir, represents only a tiny, tiny, portion of emissions in the city. Fast moving traffic, especially going uphill, emits more GHG's than slow moving traffic, so emissions might even be reduced on Dunsmuir.

The congestion on Dunsmuir, by regulating the flow of traffic, may actually cause traffic to move more smoothly on other streets connected to it. As well, it is only for a few blocks. If even a few people switch to cycling, this will reduce emissions by more than any amount that might be caused by increased idling.

99.999% of congestion, idling and emissions are caused by too much driving. If you are really concerned about this, then drive less and stop complaining about bike lanes.
Ah, my poor befuddled cyclist. While emissions may be lower when idling, they are higher when accelerating. Since vehicles are being forced into a constant stop-start mode now along Dunsmuir, emissions are higher than when the traffic flowed freely. And when a vehicle is idling, it is going nowhere, making it least efficient. Simple Al Goreology 101.

Just for grins I went along Hornby Street today at 11:30 am, travelling north from Davie to Pender. Temperature 7 Celsius, road bare and dry, overcast but no rain. Number of Cyclists: 3 (OK, OK, I'll charitably throw in the junkie riding on the sidewalk and make it 4). As Stingray2004 pointed out, Hornby and Georgia (as well as Hornby and Pender) are now a traffic clogged bottleneck, as there is only one lane proceeding north for vehicles.

$3 million well spent indeed.
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  #1653  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2010, 1:09 AM
tybuilding tybuilding is offline
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Isn't Hornby usually clogged? Even the picture on Google is clogged though by Hornby and Robson

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=...04136&t=h&z=18

This is what is was like last Saturday when I biked this stretch on the new lanes.

The Google picture I will point out was before the lanes went in which I will point out took out the parking lane, while there are still the same number of traffic lanes as there were earlier so what is the diff? It had bad traffic before and bad afterwards.
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  #1654  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2010, 1:23 AM
whatnext whatnext is offline
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Isn't Hornby usually clogged? Even the picture on Google is clogged though by Hornby and Robson

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=...04136&t=h&z=18

This is what is was like last Saturday when I biked this stretch on the new lanes.

The Google picture I will point out was before the lanes went in which I will point out took out the parking lane, while there are still the same number of traffic lanes as there were earlier so what is the diff? It had bad traffic before and bad afterwards.
No, its definitely worse. If you look at Hornby approaching Georgia you'll note that there is actually quite a bit of open space between cars. Now the left lane is solid from Georgia back through Robson. The right traffic lane now suddenly becomes the right turn lane onto Georgia which is now allowed only on an advance signal ( before the bike lane was the right turn lane) so you have drivers trying to get out of the turn lane to get onto the one lane crossing Georgia).

To be honest, it was worse than I expected as I always thought of Hornby as a road from nowhere to nowhere (no direct bridge connection at the south end and ending at a T-intersection with Hastings).
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  #1655  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2010, 2:20 AM
racc racc is offline
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Ah, my poor befuddled cyclist. While emissions may be lower when idling, they are higher when accelerating. Since vehicles are being forced into a constant stop-start mode now along Dunsmuir, emissions are higher than when the traffic flowed freely. And when a vehicle is idling, it is going nowhere, making it least efficient. Simple Al Goreology 101.

Just for grins I went along Hornby Street today at 11:30 am, travelling north from Davie to Pender. Temperature 7 Celsius, road bare and dry, overcast but no rain. Number of Cyclists: 3 (OK, OK, I'll charitably throw in the junkie riding on the sidewalk and make it 4). As Stingray2004 pointed out, Hornby and Georgia (as well as Hornby and Pender) are now a traffic clogged bottleneck, as there is only one lane proceeding north for vehicles.

$3 million well spent indeed.
I guess when you don't have much of an argument, you resort to name calling.

The faster the acceleration uphill, the worse the pollution. As it seems like the speeds have decreased, acceleration rates have likely decreased as well thus decreasing pollution.

Anyway, not much point in arguing this too much, it is too complicated to determine whether the emissions have decrease or not due to slower speeds and idling. The amounts related to the congestion either way will be trivial. It is only for a small portion of the day.

You are really grasping at straws. As far as Georgia and Hornby goes, as it was a mess long before the bike lane, the bike lane has nothing to do with the congestion. Even if it was not backed up on Hornby, it is still backed up on Georgia, which, by the way, does not have a bike lane.

How shocking, there is congestion on a road without a bike lane. Unbelievable!
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  #1656  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2010, 3:53 AM
Porfiry Porfiry is offline
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Congestion at Hornby and Georgia is purely a function of the traffic on Georgia, which is simply terrible at most times of the day. The capacity of Hornby is a non-issue when turning cars get immediately stuck in the Georgia St. parking lot.
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  #1657  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2010, 4:30 AM
DKaz DKaz is offline
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I'm driving to work next Thursday, I'll be the judge of how bad traffic is.

Took a few photos at Hornby & Hastings. I think the Hornby lanes will be more utilized.



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  #1658  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2010, 4:50 AM
deasine deasine is offline
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Here is a video of a biker trying out the Hornby Bikeway
Video Link
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  #1659  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2010, 6:05 AM
whatnext whatnext is offline
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Originally Posted by DKaz View Post
I'm driving to work next Thursday, I'll be the judge of how bad traffic is.

Took a few photos at Hornby & Hastings. I think the Hornby lanes will be more utilized.[/IMG]
What's with all the flagmen? What are they for, now that the construction is done, and how much are they costing?
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  #1660  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2010, 6:22 AM
biketrouble biketrouble is offline
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They are there to make sure that drivers, easily confused by the traffic signals being different from the last time they used that intersection, don't kill anyone.

I imagine the costs were already accounted for in the budget. Perhaps you could ask City Hall. Alternatively, make up a number and then complain loudly about it.
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