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  #1641  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 2:43 AM
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While the c- train fulfills the role of rapid transit for Calgary, it is by the
Most technichal of terms not rapid transit for The simple fact that it is not 100% grade seperated. The underground part of the eglinton line will fall into this "non rapid transit" group as well as part of the line is not actually grade seperated. (the above ground part)
     
     
  #1642  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 3:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
There are no hard and fast rules for what exactly constitutes a rapid transit system.

Most LRT systems are not completely grade separated, and yet, their function within a regional transportation network is almost identical to higher capacity modes such as subways. The C-Train fulfils the role of a rapid transit system within the city. Focusing on the fact that it isn't grade separated is pedantic.
Yes, there are.

1. Electric
2. Urban
3. High Capacity
4. High frequency
5. Fully grade Separated

The same role (providing faster and/or higher capacity/frequency backbone routes) can be done by several different type of transit, including commuter rail (like in some Australian cities), trams, LRT, or bus lanes. But they are still different forms of transit that fulfill a similar role.
     
     
  #1643  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 3:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Yes, there are.

1. Electric
2. Urban
3. High Capacity
4. High frequency
5. Fully grade Separated
OK, and who made up the rules?

Edit: more to the point, 1 and 5 have absolutely no impact on the functional aspects of the transportation system. They are characteristics that are common in rapid transit, but they are not essential.
     
     
  #1644  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 3:55 AM
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I'm not sure I'd call it a "rule". It's no different than for any other word or technical term. The term falls into common usage either by the general public or in a particular field or industry, and once it's commonly enough used, it is documented in dictionaries, encyclopedias, text books, etc. as the word's official definition.

It isn't really any different from the way people decided how to differentiate a bus from a van, or motorcycle from a scooter despite the many similarities in purpose and function.
     
     
  #1645  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 4:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
Edit: more to the point, 1 and 5 have absolutely no impact on the functional aspects of the transportation system. They are characteristics that are common in rapid transit, but they are not essential.
Actually, they have a huge impact. Being electrified means that trains can accelerate much faster and therefore can run more frequently. It would be nearly impossible for a rapid transit system to function without electrification. And many true rapid transit systems are too busy to allow for things like fuel stops which would severely impact scheduling.

Being grade separated has equally high relevance, since many rapid transit systems run so frequently that if there were streets that cross the line at grade, the road vehicles would not get sufficient opportunity to cross as there would almost always be a train coming. This also means that the trains must be limited in their length to the length of the shortest block near a stop, since it cannot be allowed to block a crossing when it is stopped. Also, allowing outside access to the track reduces reliability since there's always the possibility of things like a vehicle stalling on the tracks, or a collision with a vehicle. As a result, LRT trains often need to be built differently with more robust collision standards in case of that possibility.
     
     
  #1646  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 4:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Doady View Post
Yeah, okay, Calgary C-Train is rapid transit then, you've convinced me.

I guess Mississauga has rapid transit too. The GO Bus takes less than 45 minutes to get from Erindale to Union Station - a 30 km long route - it's even faster than the C-Train.
If it moves 100,000 people per day then why not call it rapid transit?
     
     
  #1647  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 4:37 AM
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So by that logic there are only 3 rapid transit systems in Canada?
     
     
  #1648  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 4:50 AM
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This makes no sense. The Eglinton LRT runs underground from Keele to Laird which is 15 km. All grade seperated and is not rapid transit because it goes above ground in the suburbs. Yet the new ARL will be rapid transit because it (will be) electric frequent, urban, grade seperated and high capacity.
     
     
  #1649  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 4:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
The term "rapid transit" is not an adjective describing how fast a system is. It is an official transit and planning term with specific criteria which the C-train doesn't include. There are definitely other forms of transit that are just as fast (or faster) as rapid transit including commuter rail and certain LRT systems, but they are not rapid and fall under other classifications depending on their individual characteristics.
So if the LRT isn't rapid transit then what is it? Should we call it magic streetcar line 201?

This wiki page seems to classify LRT as rapid transit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_transit_in_Canada
     
     
  #1650  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 5:01 AM
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Originally Posted by caltrane74 View Post
This makes no sense. The Eglinton LRT runs underground from Keele to Laird which is 15 km. All grade seperated and is not rapid transit because it goes above ground in the suburbs. Yet the new ARL will be rapid transit because it (will be) electric frequent, urban, grade seperated and high capacity.
Whether or not something is rapid transit doesn't depend on whether or not it's above ground. There are entire rapid transit system that run on the surface or elevated. It depends on how it runs above ground. If it's grade separated above ground too, then Eglinton would definitely be be RT.
     
     
  #1651  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 5:08 AM
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Originally Posted by UofC.engineer View Post
So if the LRT isn't rapid transit then what is it? Should we call it magic streetcar line 201?
Most people, including those in the transit and planning community, would call it LRT. But you're welcome to call it MSL 201 if you like. It might even catch on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UofC.engineer View Post
This wiki page seems to classify LRT as rapid transit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_transit_in_Canada
Remember, Wikipedia is written and edited by members of the general public with mixed results. The reliability of its articles is only as good as the sources the article cites. In this case, the article doesn't cite any source that defines Rapid Transit, and the article is in conflict with the page that does cite valid outside sources.

However, the good thing is that if you notice errors in Wikipedia articles, you are able to edit them too add the correct information or remove unverified claims.
     
     
  #1652  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 5:11 AM
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On Eglinton, the underground portion should be a seperate line from the suburban above ground lines.

Eglinton underground blueline . Eglinton West Redline, Eglinton East Yellow.
     
     
  #1653  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 8:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Thrillingbroom View Post
So by that logic there are only 3 rapid transit systems in Canada?
That is true, they are also the only 3 systems that are technically metros as well (A metro is also a term technically only used for electrified, grade separated urban transit).

So Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal, even though they are all quite different from one and other, are Canada's only true metros / rapid transit systems.

The next closest would be Edmonton's LRT.
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  #1654  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 8:38 AM
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Well yeah but I think it would be stupid if something like that halted construction.
I'd consider it worse to build the wrong type of system and be stuck with it for the next 30 years.
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  #1655  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 1:57 PM
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Ottawa will actually have rapid transit in its first phase. That might change as extensions get added though.
     
     
  #1656  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 2:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Actually, they have a huge impact. Being electrified means that trains can accelerate much faster and therefore can run more frequently. It would be nearly impossible for a rapid transit system to function without electrification. And many true rapid transit systems are too busy to allow for things like fuel stops which would severely impact scheduling.

Being grade separated has equally high relevance, since many rapid transit systems run so frequently that if there were streets that cross the line at grade, the road vehicles would not get sufficient opportunity to cross as there would almost always be a train coming. This also means that the trains must be limited in their length to the length of the shortest block near a stop, since it cannot be allowed to block a crossing when it is stopped. Also, allowing outside access to the track reduces reliability since there's always the possibility of things like a vehicle stalling on the tracks, or a collision with a vehicle. As a result, LRT trains often need to be built differently with more robust collision standards in case of that possibility.
But grade separation and power supply (and whether it is urban or not, for that matter) are redundant because they both are factors effecting frequency which is best considered on its own. If I have two transit systems that are identical in frequency and capacity, there is fundamentally no difference between them. Consider, for example, that the Sheppard Line has significantly lower frequency than the 201 in Calgary at peak periods (5-6 mins v. ~2-4 min, correct me if I'm wrong) despite the latter not being grade-separated. Both have high capacity and high frequency and are therefore best understood as serving the same function within their respective transportation systems.

Focusing on the grade separation is a meaningless distinction when it comes to understanding how the transportation system functions. It does impose limits on future capacity, but there are all sorts of implementation details that potentially have an even greater impact that you fail to consider in your criteria for rapid transit.

Finally, I don't think that there is any consensus at all amongst transportation professionals that rapid transit requires grade separation, at least the ones I know and have interacted with. The only source I can find is the APTA Glossary from 1994 that vaguely refers to segregated operations in its definition for rapid transit but that clearly acknowledges that actual terminology varies widely and that the function of the glossary is simply to get policy-makers up to speed. Most people I interact with acknowledge that there is a continuum from systems such as the Spadina LRT, which wouldn't really fit with most people's definition of rapid transit, to something like the C-Train which does, even though they are both technically light rail technology.
     
     
  #1657  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 2:55 PM
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The C-Train, along with Edmonton's LRT, are by design rapid transit. They wouldn't have the names "LRT" if it was not rapid transit. They are designed to be so. What Nouvelcousse describes is called a subway which is also a form of rapid transit.
     
     
  #1658  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 3:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
But grade separation and power supply (and whether it is urban or not, for that matter) are redundant because they both are factors effecting frequency which is best considered on its own. If I have two transit systems that are identical in frequency and capacity, there is fundamentally no difference between them. Consider, for example, that the Sheppard Line has significantly lower frequency than the 201 in Calgary at peak periods (5-6 mins v. ~2-4 min, correct me if I'm wrong) despite the latter not being grade-separated. Both have high capacity and high frequency and are therefore best understood as serving the same function within their respective transportation systems.

Focusing on the grade separation is a meaningless distinction when it comes to understanding how the transportation system functions. It does impose limits on future capacity, but there are all sorts of implementation details that potentially have an even greater impact that you fail to consider in your criteria for rapid transit.

Finally, I don't think that there is any consensus at all amongst transportation professionals that rapid transit requires grade separation, at least the ones I know and have interacted with. The only source I can find is the APTA Glossary from 1994 that vaguely refers to segregated operations in its definition for rapid transit but that clearly acknowledges that actual terminology varies widely and that the function of the glossary is simply to get policy-makers up to speed. Most people I interact with acknowledge that there is a continuum from systems such as the Spadina LRT, which wouldn't really fit with most people's definition of rapid transit, to something like the C-Train which does, even though they are both technically light rail technology.
I don't know anything about urban planning or transportation planning, but this struck me as a very good, well-reasoned post.
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  #1659  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 5:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Xelebes View Post
The C-Train, along with Edmonton's LRT, are by design rapid transit. They wouldn't have the names "LRT" if it was not rapid transit. They are designed to be so. What Nouvelcousse describes is called a subway which is also a form of rapid transit.
I don't know why calling them "LRT" means they are rapid transit... "LRT" stands for Light Rail Transit, and I don't see a word "rapid" in it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
Finally, I don't think that there is any consensus at all amongst transportation professionals that rapid transit requires grade separation, at least the ones I know and have interacted with.
But the public perception is already well established. I think right now only North American would consider LRT as rapid transit. If you talk to European about LRT, they will agree it is an urban mass transit, but few would actually call it rapid. If you talk to Asian about LRT being rapid transit, they'll laugh at you (LRT there actually means elevated medium capacity system like SkyTrain, VAL, or DLR, which is rapid transit). Well, you'll just have to ask some new comers from China on the C-Train to see what I mean...

Last edited by nname; Aug 13, 2012 at 5:50 PM.
     
     
  #1660  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2012, 6:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
But grade separation and power supply (and whether it is urban or not, for that matter) are redundant because they both are factors effecting frequency which is best considered on its own. If I have two transit systems that are identical in frequency and capacity, there is fundamentally no difference between them. Consider, for example, that the Sheppard Line has significantly lower frequency than the 201 in Calgary at peak periods (5-6 mins v. ~2-4 min, correct me if I'm wrong) despite the latter not being grade-separated. Both have high capacity and high frequency and are therefore best understood as serving the same function within their respective transportation systems.

Focusing on the grade separation is a meaningless distinction when it comes to understanding how the transportation system functions. It does impose limits on future capacity, but there are all sorts of implementation details that potentially have an even greater impact that you fail to consider in your criteria for rapid transit.

Finally, I don't think that there is any consensus at all amongst transportation professionals that rapid transit requires grade separation, at least the ones I know and have interacted with. The only source I can find is the APTA Glossary from 1994 that vaguely refers to segregated operations in its definition for rapid transit but that clearly acknowledges that actual terminology varies widely and that the function of the glossary is simply to get policy-makers up to speed. Most people I interact with acknowledge that there is a continuum from systems such as the Spadina LRT, which wouldn't really fit with most people's definition of rapid transit, to something like the C-Train which does, even though they are both technically light rail technology.
You seem to be implying that how you use something is the only thing that matters and that what you're actually using is irrelevant.

A Chevy suburban (large SUV) and a Dodge Caravan (minivan) can carry the same number of people, and I'm sure there are many people who chose to use them for the same purpose. If you have a Caravan and your neighbour has a Suburban and you both use your vehicles to carry passengers on the highway and never go of road, then there is considerable over lap.

You could say the fact that the Suburban can go off road, is four wheel drive, and has a much higher towing capcity is totally irrelevant since your neighbour never use those features, and therefore your Caravan does everything that your neighbour actually uses his Suburban for, meaning your Caravan is in fact an SUV. You could even say that the name is more appropriate for your Caravan since it has sportier car-based handling than the clumsy truck-based Suburban. But most people will still call the Suburban an SUV and the Caravan a minivan. So if you tell people you have an SUV, even though your Caravan can do everything that most people use their SUVs for, you'll still be giving people the wrong impression,
     
     
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