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  #1641  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2010, 10:40 PM
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Obviously, wasn't there ongoing talks about increasing costs? I'd expect construction to be in a "holding pattern" until that is finalized.
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  #1642  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2010, 3:39 PM
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Don't know how I missed this:

From Black Rod


Logic lacking: Asper's Stadium and your money

There are so many things wrong with the David Asper stadium deal that its hard to decide where to start.

They started digging a hole at the University of Manitoba last week although they don't know what they're building, they don't know how much it will cost and they don't know who will pay for it.

We do know that at some point unelected Premier Greg Selinger, the dirtiest politician in Manitoba, made a decision to channel millions of dollars into the pockets of the Asper family. Why would he do that? We'll leave it to your imagination to provide the answer while we provide the facts.

Selinger hid $115 million in the provincial budget for David Asper in a section so obscure and so buried nobody could find it without a knowing guide. There was no mention in the Throne Speech about a new stadium, never mind that the province was paying for it. Why do you think they were hiding it?

To skirt the law, which requires putting government contracts to tender, Selinger is "lending" $90 million to the Winnipeg Blue Bombers to spend on a new stadium, topped up by another $15 million as the province's share of the cost. The football club will then give an untendered contract for the stadium to Creswin, the Asper-family real-estate development arm.

Creswin is not a charity.

What's the profit margin in the construction industry? 10 percent? 20 percent? The Aspers will make millions on the stadium contract regardless if David Asper lives up to his commitment to pay back $75 million of the government loan.

Right now, all that David Asper brings to the stadium deal is his empty wallet. That's what's delayed construction for two months. Asper pledged to cover cost overruns. But even before excavators scooped up their first clump of earth, the estimated cost had shot up to $139 million, or $24 million over what they're now calling their "first estimate." He wants the government to cover the extra cost and accept his IOU. But the government hasn't got the money either.

Remember, the Selinger government is running a deficit of $545 million this year. With $115 million of that going to the Asper stadium, that means that more than one-fifth (21 percent) of the money that we're borrowing this year is going to the Aspers. There is no magic pot of money Selinger can dip into to get the extra $24 million. So nobody knows where the extra money is going to come from, but they've started construction anyway.

Of course, everybody expects the government will pay the entire shot eventually.

Even Selinger expects Asper to renege on repaying the "loan". That's why he's built into the deal a sort of safety net to (bizarrely) "protect" the taxpayer. If Asper can't come up with the $75 million he's pledged, the stadium loan will be "repaid" from property and school tax money to be raised from developing the Polo Park site of the current stadium.

However, that's also against the law as it's currently written. Under the Tax Increment Financing legislation, any new taxes from newly developed land must be spent in the area the development takes place. That's the incentive to develop the undeveloped land. What you pay now will be recouped later.

Instead, Selinger intends to take money away from schoolchildrens in St. James to finance a new professional sports stadium in Fort Garry.

If development of the existing stadium site was to bring the city and school board half as much in taxes as Polo Park, it will take 25 years to pay back Selinger's stadium loan. Imagine what the school board could do with $50 or $60 million in extra funding over a generation.

So a generation of children who will get no benefit from the "loan" will be responsible for paying it back? Does that make any sense?

For some unknown reason, the board of directors of the Winnipeg Blue Bombers football team want to sell the team to David Asper and only David Asper.

Except he has no money.

So the government of Manitoba is bailing him out by building a stadium at public expense and letting him buy his way into owning the Blue Bombers by someday paying back part of the "loan" to the team.

But why David Asper? Why him and not the highest bidder? If this is the game, why not allow the person who repays the most to own the football team?

The Polo Park stadium land is to be sold to Asper---IF he can come up with the money to buy it. But why is he the only one allowed to buy the land? That was to be the deal when people thought he had money and he was going to build a new stadium. But now that the government is paying for a new stadium, where's Asper's stake in the deal? Why do we need him at all?

Let him bid on the existing stadium site and bid on the right to "repay" the government loan for the new stadium. The city will get the best price for the land, someone will develop it, and the province will still get paid back for the cost of the new stadium, even if it has to take the money away from schoolchildren.

That's New Democonomics, Selinger style.

David Asper's sister Gail is already stiffing the City of Winnipeg on property taxes owed on her pet project The Canadian Museum for Human Rights. Shouldn't that be enough warning about doing business with the Asper family circa 2010?

Last week Mayor Sam Katz was interviewed on CJOB and asked about the stadium project as well as the long lost waterpark. You know, the waterpark that David Asper was once going to build along with a new stadium in South Point Douglas.

The waterpark, for which city council voted $7 million two years ago, is still a go, said Katz. A deal with Canad Inns fell through in 2009.

"They did put out an 'expression of interest'. They have gotten a response. I think there was dome due diligence being done. As you know the first time it was done not everything was complied with so there's been some more 'meat' put into the agreement," said Katz, adding he's hoping to hear within a month whether there's a deal or not.

Go figure. On a $7 million waterpark they've been doing due diligence for two years and they still have no deal, but for a $115 million stadium the Mayor and Premier whipped together a jerry-rigged, cockamamie plan with a, ahem, 'businessman' whose biggest asset is his father's last name.

How did David Asper become the "favoured son" of the city and the province, even though he lives in Toronto (with a crash pad in Winnipeg)?

Is this a clue?

The blog Waverley West did some research on the connection between Asper, Creswin and Katz, or should we say Katz's friend and colleague Phil Sheegl.

http://waverleywest.blogspot.com/200...win-et-al.html

"On April 29, 1997 Asper Properties Inc. legally became Creswin Properties Ltd. Winnipeg media often treat Creswin Properties (893103879MC001) as if it was the personal property of David Asper, his “Go Bombers” plaything. It isn’t. Creswin is a valuable Asper family business.

As reported earlier the President of Creswin is Daniel Edwards. The 3 directors are Gail Asper (VP) David Asper (VP, Treasurer) and Leonard Asper (Secretary, VP). Creswin voting shares are entirely comprised of 100 shares owned by AFT Properties Inc.
AFT Properties Inc. has the same 3 directors, Gail, Leonard and David Asper. It has 5 Officers, Dan Edwards (President), Gail Asper (Secretary), Leonard Asper, VP), David Asper (Chairman) and J. Wayne Pestrak (CFO).
AFT voting shares are compromised of the following:
David Asper Holdings Inc. 250 Common
Leonard Asper Holdings Inc. 250 Common
Gail Asper Holdings Inc. 250 Common

When AFT was amalgamated in July of 1997 the Directors were Israel, Gail, Leonard, David and Ruth Asper. This is not at all surprising. What is surprising is the inclusion of the representatives of two of Winnipeg’s historically powerful mercantile families, Robert Akman (President) and Richard M. Leipsic.

Robert Akman was President of Creswin until June 1, 2003. He was President of AFT until July 2, 2003. Richard M. Leipsic left AFT that very same day.
Daniel Edwards became President of Creswin on October 20, 2003.
Controversial City Planner Phil Sheegl has long been associated with the Akman family. Besides being an Arizona development business partner of the Akmans he also helped gain City approval for the Akman family’s Winnipeg developments in the past."
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  #1643  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2010, 4:22 PM
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The design of the stadium is complete. I have personally seen all of the drawings. They know what they are building. When it is mentioned that they don't know what they are building it comes down to whether or not the roof is part of the plan or not. The roof has nothing to do with the overall footprint or structural design of the stadium except for the footings that actually support the roof.

All of the trade pricing closes Sept 15, 2010. A lot of major projects are sequentially tendered like this to speed up the process.

I don't like the way the Asper portion of the deal has/is being managed either, but people talk as if this is some kind of cluster fuck of a construction process. A lot of big projects are handled this way. The problem is all of the public money involved and the way it has been perceived.
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  #1644  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2010, 6:13 PM
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Hey Biff, not sure if you're at liberty to say, but I've been wondering... in the new stadium design, will fans be able to freely move between the upper deck and the lower bowl (like we can now at the stadium), or will it be like the MTS Centre where there are separate entrances and ticket checks for the two levels (as in upper and lower bowl).

Thanks.
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  #1645  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2010, 6:13 AM
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More Black Rod:


Why did MSM ignore Tom Brodbeck's sexy stadium exclusive

Maybe, if we can associate failed businessman David Asper with an attraction to large, naked black men, we can generate some news coverage of the biggest story in Winnipeg.

This week the city's news outlets rushed to follow CBC's masturbatory interracial sex fantasy story (black man claims he was recruited to have sex with white wife) while ignoring the true news scoop by Winnipeg Sun columnist Tom Brodbeck involving a threesome of Winnipeg's most influential men---Asper, Mayor Sam Katz and unelected Premier Greg Selinger.

Oh, not that kind of threesome. Sorry.

We meant a business arrangement involving the three men, as in getting into bed together to announce a new stadium for the Winnipeg Blue Bombers and in the process screwing the taxpayer. As in the CBC sex "scandal", there is no sex. But there is plenty of scandal in Brodbeck's exclusive story.

"But Asper says the initial agreement that requires him to cover all cost overruns in the stadium deal is no longer valid if the cost of the project exceeds its original $115 million price tag," wrote Brodbeck (Somebody's gotta pay, Winnipeg Sun, Aug. 30, 2010).

Say what? Asper's pledge to cover cost overruns only existed as long as there were no overruns? Yeah, that makes sense, doesn't it?

He told Brodbeck, presumably with a straight face, that he never expected that the cost of construction would be more than the estimate. Construction costs were lower in the spring, he said. So by the time the deal was announced, on March 31, it was too late. The window was shut. The moment had passed. Coitus interruptus.

Asper didn't tell anyone the deal was off for another five months. Like all men, he was ashamed he couldn't perform. But now that tenders are out and expected to be at least $25 million more than the first estimate, Asper decided to come clean.
Forget it boys, he's telling his partners, Sam and Greg. You've got to cover the bill. I'll get the tip.

There's one part of the deal Asper doesn't want to change. He still intends to buy the Winnipeg Blue Bombers by paying $75 million of the cost of the stadium.

There's one problem with that scenario.

When the stadium cost $115 million, $75 mil was 65 percent. If the bill for the stadium is now $139 million plus, $75 mil is only 53 percent.

So Asper wants to buy the team at a discount. He doesn't live in Winnipeg anymore, but he's still looking for a discount.

You would think this story of reneging on a pledge and renegotiating a multi-multi-million deal on the fly would be big news. Especially since its part of a pattern with the Aspers. His sister Gail pledged the private sector would cover the cost overruns on the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, then as soon as there were cost overruns, she went running to Sam Katz and Greg Selinger's predecessor Gary Doer for a bailout. Then she stiffed the city on property taxes.

At last count, adding the cost overruns of the museum and the stadium, the taxpayer will be tapped for at least $50 million by the Aspers.

How much of any city tax increase will go to prop up these "Top 30" influential panhandlers?

In order to report the salacious details of black-on-white sex, CBC had to frame it as a question of "character", as in the woman who didn't have sex with the black man is a judge and it's the public interest to judge her character.

David Asper is a lawyer. He teaches students at the university of Manitoba. Shouldn't we examine his character?

Once upon a time a man's character was judged by how he kept his word in business. But that was then.

Now, maybe in the spirit of this week's 'new journalism', we can examine why he wants to spend $75 million for the right to sit in the Bombers dressing room and watch large naked black men walk out the showers, their ebony bodies steaming, their big, uh, muscles bulging.
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  #1646  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2010, 8:37 PM
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really interesting piece this week in the NY Times about public funding and NFL stadiums...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/sp...stadium&st=cse
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  #1647  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2010, 2:36 AM
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Originally Posted by yopaul View Post
really interesting piece this week in the NY Times about public funding and NFL stadiums...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/sp...stadium&st=cse
Frankly I don't mind if they don't put in the roof/covering right away, so long as its designed to be upgradeable down the line in 5 to 10 years. If they put in 30,000 but can boost it to oh who knows, 50,000. If they can add a roof of some kind to make it an indoor stadium. They don't have to do it, but I want that possibility to remain an option.

Yes I know some people prefer the outdoor stadium feel. But with the type of rain we've been seeing.. and mosquitos.. well, I'd remain more satisfied as an investor if it could be repurposed. Especially once MTS's exclusivity vis a vis covered venues receiving public money contract term is over. Whenever that is.
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  #1648  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2010, 6:25 PM
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I find that totally insane to know that even after 2-3 decades cities still are owing on Stadiums. Then to build a new one and demolish a not even fully paid previous stadium.
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  #1649  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2010, 11:33 PM
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I find that totally insane to know that even after 2-3 decades cities still are owing on Stadiums. Then to build a new one and demolish a not even fully paid previous stadium.
I agree. I had heard about this situation but I didn't realize it was so bad.
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  #1650  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2010, 11:51 PM
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I don't think a covered (indoor) stadium is allowed because of that agreement with the MTS Centre. Partially covered sure but still outdoors.
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  #1651  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2010, 7:15 PM
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I find that totally insane to know that even after 2-3 decades cities still are owing on Stadiums. Then to build a new one and demolish a not even fully paid previous stadium.
its the american way, no? "go into unjustifyable debt to build something big, pretty, and will be obsolete in a dew years"
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  #1652  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2010, 5:43 PM
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Why is Asper even involved in the stadium project? This project should have been tendered, the U of M should own and operate the facility and lease it to the Blue Bombers. A university owned stadium seems to work all over the US and in Montreal and Calgary.



End the stadium shell game
Let taxpayers see backroom deals because we'll be paying the bill


David Asper has pushed to make a new stadium happen, but it's time the public was let in on the building process.
If you think you know what your football stadium is going to look like, you're wrong.
If you think you know when your football stadium will be complete, you're wrong.
If you think you know much at all about your football stadium, sadly, my friend, you're wrong.
The time for backroom deals and late-night negotiations behind closed doors is over. As taxpayers, and we hate playing this card, it's time to demand transparency.
Tenders and final numbers for stadium construction are due any day and the decisions on how to proceed with the proposed project are set to follow.
The stakeholders in this project -- Creswin, the University of Manitoba, the province, the city and the Blue Bombers -- have made all the calls to this point and, frankly, haven't done much of a job.
Uncertainty and a lack of harmony are the hallmarks of this task force.
They need to make public the numbers and the reasoning behind decisions regarding the shaping of the stadium. Anything less is unacceptable.
As taxpayers, this is our house, but we're all crowded into one room with the lights turned off. Time to open the door and let us see for ourselves what we're buying.
The building of a new football stadium at the U of M for use by the Winnipeg Blue Bombers and U of M Bisons is a fine idea and one that should go forward and supply this community with the type of gathering place it deserves.
Entire bill
We've got no problem, for that matter, with footing the entire bill. It's part and parcel with being a major city in Canada. Winnipeg needs a hockey rink, a symphony hall and a football stadium. If not, we're just a bunch of people with similar postal codes. We're not a community and a place where sport and culture binds us together to make us one.
It goes to quality of life and with the disadvantages created by our geographical situation, we need to stimulate other sources of community pride. Ballet, art galleries and a football team with an 80-year history are some of those things that make us Winnipeggers and glad for it.
Do we need a new stadium? Clearly. Thankfully, David Asper has pushed to make that happen. Without his vision and his drive, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
But all his hard work is now at risk. Maybe it's his fault, maybe it's that of the Bombers' board of directors, maybe it's the politicians. Don't know, don't care.
The bottom line is that in the next couple of weeks, decisions will be made about the future of where we watch football games for the next 50 years. And we need to take part in that process.
Creswin officials have gone on the record as saying the construction firm will build a stadium that costs about $115 million. That's the only certainty from their end.
It's a popular myth that the only segment of the proposed stadium at risk is the overhead canopy. What if even cutting the canopy leaves construction costs in the $130-million range? Then something else will have to go in order for Creswin to do what they say they will do: deliver a stadium for $115 million.
Creswin is not about to dig into its own pockets for $15 million. They've already said they won't. So don't give us this baloney about the canopy being the only thing in line for cutting.
We've also been told there's a chance that no alterations will be needed in order to come in close to $115 million.
Like we said, no one knows what this thing is going to look like or when it's going to be finished. We put the cart way before the horse on this project.
To frame this deal as anything other than publicly funded is misleading. The stadium is meant to cost $115 million and our provincial government has pledged to cover $90 million of that.
Yes, there's a plan where Creswin will turn the land where Canad Inns Stadium sits at Polo Park into a mall and pay back that loan.
But there's also a provision that says property taxes from new developments at Polo Park will be used to pay down the loan should Creswin be unable to complete its end of the deal.
So right now, it's our money. And if it's our money, we should be involved in deciding how our stadium looks and feels.
gary.lawless@freepress.mb.ca
Republished from the Winnipeg Free Press print edition September 15, 2010 C1
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  #1653  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2010, 7:14 PM
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Originally Posted by DowntownWpg View Post


Hey Biff, not sure if you're at liberty to say, but I've been wondering... in the new stadium design, will fans be able to freely move between the upper deck and the lower bowl (like we can now at the stadium), or will it be like the MTS Centre where there are separate entrances and ticket checks for the two levels (as in upper and lower bowl).

Thanks.

Sorry for the late reply. It's hard to tell how the movement will be (or be restricted). I haven't looked at all the drawings - there is over 150 structural and architectural so to answer your question i don't know for sure. It looks like there is a separate entrance for the upper deck ramps but it is hard for me to say.
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  #1654  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2010, 8:38 PM
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Thanks.

I often move around the stadium to meet friends at half time, or to grab some better seats in those late October games when the stadium is only 2/3 full.

Am guessing that new stadium and arena design is geared towards separate entrances for different levels, to prevent this sort of thing and for crowd control.
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  #1655  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2010, 9:14 PM
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You know you're in Winnipeg when the ability to sneak into good seats without paying full price is the #1 concern fans have about a new stadium!
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  #1656  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2010, 9:32 PM
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Lmao!!!!!!!
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  #1657  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2010, 9:43 PM
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Well, I am a 6th generation Winnipegger, and have Ukrainian in my blood.
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  #1658  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2010, 11:25 PM
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My father's entire childhood was spent devising ever more complex schemes for sneaking into Osborne Stadium.
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  #1659  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2010, 11:40 PM
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I could just imagine how it was at the Osborne Stadium. Such a ornate design baseball and football.
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  #1660  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2010, 5:11 AM
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You know you're in Winnipeg when the ability to sneak into good seats without paying full price is the #1 concern fans have about a new stadium!
You know you're in Toronto when they give out free tickets to the Argo's and still no one goes, but fans will pay $200 for a ticket to a Bills game where the total of the final score is in single digits.

Last edited by rrskylar; Sep 16, 2010 at 5:37 AM.
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