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  #1601  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 4:47 PM
homebucket homebucket is offline
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What was your handle before you got banned? Asking for a friend...
Bro has literally been waiting to create a new account and that's the best he could come up with.
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  #1602  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 4:51 PM
Djeffery Djeffery is online now
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Originally Posted by Puss n Boots View Post
"Basically emissions free" basically means not emissions free. How could it be??? 80% of the world's energy comes from fossil fuels.
If we are going to talk about the back end of where the electricity comes from to power an EV, then how about how the gas gets to your ICE car (not to mention how your car gets to the gas, or for that matter, how the gas even becomes gas to begin with). If the power plants are powered by fossil fuels, so are the fossil fuel plants.
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  #1603  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 4:57 PM
DoubleK DoubleK is offline
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Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
Bro has literally been waiting to create a new account and that's the best he could come up with.
lolol
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  #1604  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 7:08 PM
Puss n Boots Puss n Boots is offline
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Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
Bro has literally been waiting to create a new account and that's the best he could come up with.
That was a little weak please refer to the official woke procedure on how to handle ideology offenders on this forum:

1. Ad hominem attack (usually includes the word troll)
2. Comment on the offender's # of posts and/or registration date
3. Suggest the offender was recently banned
4. Circle the wagon with resident sheeple
5. Make no argument or counter argument
6. Solicit ban
7. Virtual circle jerk

Try harder
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  #1605  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 7:22 PM
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Nouvellecosse Nouvellecosse is offline
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Originally Posted by Puss n Boots View Post
That was a little weak please refer to the official woke procedure on how to handle ideology offenders on this forum:

1. Ad hominem attack (usually includes the word troll)
2. Comment on the offender's # of posts and/or registration date
3. Suggest the offender was recently banned
4. Circle the wagon with resident sheeple
5. Make no argument or counter argument
6. Solicit ban
7. Virtual circle jerk

Try harder
Seems odd to complain about other people following "official procedures" when your contribution is the prime example. Attempting to smear EVs by complaining that some electricity isn't zero emissions is such a worn out procedure that it doesn't even warrant a serious response (even though i still wasted my time providing one). The lack of argument or counter argument isn't a relevant critique when dealing with worn out talking points that have already been thoroughly addressed and debunked numerous times in the same 1600+ post thread.

If the point was to stress the importance of walking, biking, and using transit since that can reduce emissions even more than using EVs, then fine. But 90% of the time it's just implying that EVs aren't any better than ICE vehicles when that's just false.
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Don't ask people not to debate a topic. Just stop making debatable assertions. Problem solved.
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  #1606  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 8:38 PM
homebucket homebucket is offline
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One of the benefits of EV cars over ICE cars is need for less maintenance. Here's one thing that you would need to replace more often/is more expensive relative to the same component on an ICE car.

Tires.

I think this often gets overlooked but did want to bring it up for discussion since I don't think it's been mentioned here before.
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  #1607  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 8:55 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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I really wonder about the increased tire consumption.

The theory is that it's because of weight. But a Model 3 isn't that much heavier than a 3 Series. I wonder how much of that consumption is just the torque turning people into speed demons. I wonder how much tire consumption changes from cars with more of a grandma driving profile.
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  #1608  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 8:57 PM
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A more detailed look.

Quote:
Here’s why electric vehicles need EV-specific tires
The differences between ICE vehicles and EVs go all the way down to the tarmac.
JIM RESNICK - 12/22/2022, 3:45 AM

One of the biggest promises of electric vehicles is that they provide relative freedom from constant car maintenance. Gone are oil and filter changes, spark plugs, tune-ups, diesel particulate traps, diesel exhaust aftertreatment fluid, and countless other parts to replace. There's not even so much as a muffler clamp to deal with.

Well, a funny thing happened on the way to petrol-free motoring bliss. The final piece connecting the car to the road is still a tire, and it still flexes. It uses air and needs to be replaced every so often. And the demands a motor places on traction, load, and noise are quite unique if that motor whirs silently. There's no way around it: EVs require EV-specific tires.

How are tires for EVs different? We spoke to several tire companies to better understand what ingredients go into the tire oven in the first place and what development testing has proven before the tires hit the street.

Yes, tires intended for conventional internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles will fit your EV car's wheels, but using them in this way would be a bad idea. Tires meant for EVs are engineered to withstand the additional weight, dynamic loading, and tractive demands of an EV, among other things. Using non-EV tires will likely result in far more accelerated wear, heat-related issues, and the potential for wheelspin from a rest, which, even with traction control, could conceivably induce a loss of directional stability.

Weight and load
There are some fundamental differences between ICE cars and EVs, even before either car moves. Generally, EVs are heavier than a similarly sized or similarly classed ICE car. For example, the electric Mercedes-Benz EQS 450 4Matic's curb weight is 5,597 lbs (2,539 kg), while the ICE S500 4Matic weighs just 4,610 lbs (2,091 kg). These cars aren't on the same platform, but they hold the same size class and sit in the same general segment. The EV is nearly 1,000 lbs (454 kg) heavier due to the simple fact that batteries weigh a lot. The weight issue will improve over time, but for the near future, the basic construction of the tire carcass must be up to the task of supporting such a heavy load.

...

Noise
Without combustion, EVs have a drastically lower noise floor than ICE vehicles. And not only is there no combustion engine, there's also no transmission, no clacking of a valvetrain, no sound from the exhaust or intake plumbing, not even any faint ticking of high-pressure fuel injectors. The engine in an ICE car drowns out some of the road noise generated by the tires, putting a huge premium on quietness from all components, but especially tires.

Tires begin producing most of the sound emanating from an EV (both to the outside and the inside) once the vehicle is up to many suburban streets' speeds, and the noise only goes up on highways.

Rob Williams, Hankook Tire's senior vice president, told us that in very round numbers, powertrain noise accounts for 50 percent of the total noise heard from an ICE vehicle and that road noise from the moving vehicle accounts for 30 percent. On the other hand, Hankook found that an EV's electric motor noise accounts for just 15 percent, while road noise is 40 percent and wind noise from high-speed driving equates to about 30 percent. The major factor in tire noise at speed is the tire's tread pattern.

...

Traction under acceleration
Here lies one of the biggest challenges when engineering a tire for an EV. Because most electric motors deliver enormous torque more aggressively and instantaneously than most combustion engines, they send a more significant shock to the tire than nearly any ICE car with a similar design brief can. Almost no combustion car in the same compact hatch/wagon/SUV market zone as the Tesla Model Y, for example, can produce the same immediate acceleration. This puts a much bigger requirement on the performance envelope of the Model Y's tires than just about anything else in the same size class.

However, driving range is also a significant consideration for auto manufacturers and tire companies, not to mention buyers. If a tire delivers exceptional forward traction, long tire life is already compromised to a degree with softer rubber compounds that usually have to sacrifice long durability to deliver that bite at the road surface.

Tire life
Even in the relatively short time frame that EVs have been on the market, some owners have noted a short lifespan on their tires compared to those on ICE vehicles—sometimes drastically so. And that's important because EV customers face a pretty hefty bill to replace their tires, sometimes more than once. A friend of this author just replaced the tires on his Tesla Model S after a mere 4,000 miles due to wear. This balance between long life and traction is even more delicate with tires fitted to EVs than those on ICE vehicles.

Driving range
Electric vehicles require lower rolling resistance from their tires than an ICE vehicle to help maximize the vehicle's driving range, undoubtedly the greatest concern of EV buyers. And EV manufacturers want to capture every last morsel of range possible, which puts much greater importance on energy efficiency from the tires. Low rolling resistance is not new, but it plays a much smaller role for most ICE cars. Pirelli says that the tire's influence on an EV's range is anywhere from 20 to 40 percent, whereas it's between 15 and 20 percent on an ICE vehicle.

Compared to the tires factory-fitted to an ICE car, an EV tire is more rigid. This is the case even down to the tread pattern. But finding the right balance between low rolling resistance and grip, which are often thought of as mutually exclusive, is a balancing act.

Aerodynamic efficiency is also a factor with tires, though it's not often addressed. The frontal area of the tire, as seen by oncoming air, imparts a degree of aero drag, which one can think of as just another form of rolling resistance. Wider tires present more drag, which means lower efficiency, which results in a negative effect on the total driving range.

Cost
An inescapable fact is that EV tires are expensive, and global supply chain issues have only compounded the problem. Each issue above makes tires for EVs more costly than tires for ICE vehicles.

Finally, given all the above, there's a much smaller market for EV-specific tires than tires for ICE cars, so the field is narrower, and there are fewer choices, driving up prices relative to non-EV tires. The good news for EV owners is that the whole field is growing, which should make the collective intelligence and best practices on tires for EVs more widespread.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/12...pecific-tires/
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  #1609  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 9:01 PM
homebucket homebucket is offline
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I don't own an EV but I am looking into replacing the tires on my ICE car soon. And I noticed there are EV specific tires now, something I never realized existed before.

Most of the considerations make sense. Tire manufacturers will need to figure how to balance the optimization of rolling resistance to improve range, while also being durable enough to handle the extra load and torque.

Are the EV owners here currently using EV specific tires? I wonder how necessary it is vs just using regular tires. Could just be marketing hype. Like how there are EV specific floor mats. Half of the EV tire articles out there are sponsored by Hankook.
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  #1610  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 10:03 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
I don't own an EV but I am looking into replacing the tires on my ICE car soon. And I noticed there are EV specific tires now, something I never realized existed before.

Most of the considerations make sense. Tire manufacturers will need to figure how to balance the optimization of rolling resistance to improve range, while also being durable enough to handle the extra load and torque.

Are the EV owners here currently using EV specific tires? I wonder how necessary it is vs just using regular tires. Could just be marketing hype. Like how there are EV specific floor mats. Half of the EV tire articles out there are sponsored by Hankook.
I have a 2018 Tesla 3. About 80K kms on it now. 57K on my "all season" that were delivered with the car and 23K on my winter tires.

All seasons still around 50% of life or more, winters are in great shape. I did buy "EV specific" winter tires from Tesla but partially to get the same wheels and TPMS sensors already built in. They are Michelin.

I will get new tires eventually, but so far not seeing excessive wear. I don't stomp it everywhere either. The cars do have tons of torque and you could go through tires faster, just like anything else.
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  #1611  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
... I noticed there are EV specific tires now, something I never realized existed before.

Most of the considerations make sense. Tire manufacturers will need to figure how to balance the optimization of rolling resistance to improve range, while also being durable enough to handle the extra load and torque.

Are the EV owners here currently using EV specific tires? I wonder how necessary it is vs just using regular tires. Could just be marketing hype. Like how there are EV specific floor mats. Half of the EV tire articles out there are sponsored by Hankook.
Quote:
Their tires must handle more weight compared to internal-combustion vehicles, and deliver more torque to the road when moving away from a stop, the company noted.

Because of their near-silent powertrains, tire noise is also more noticeable in electric cars than internal-combustion vehicles, where it is partially masked by engine noise.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news...ifferent-tires

I wonder how environmentally friendly all that extra tire wear is? A Cooper SE owner told me their tires will need to be replaced within the first year or two. If the tires came with the car, would they not be EV specific?
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  #1612  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 10:11 PM
homebucket homebucket is offline
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Originally Posted by Architype View Post
https://www.greencarreports.com/news...ifferent-tires

I wonder how environmentally friendly all that extra tire wear is? A Cooper SE owner told me their tires will need to be replaced within the first year or two. If the tires came with the car, would they not be EV specific?
Seems like this is a relatively new discovery. More and more tire manufacturers seem to have developed an EV specific tire line. So I'd imagine most early Teslas just came with regular fitted tires. I think as time goes on tire manufacturers through technology will improve the treadwear of the EV specific tires as well. Weights of batteries should come down also. Some companies like BMW and Mercedes are also coming out with Hans Zimmer-composed soundtracks that can be customized to drown out tire and road nosie.
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  #1613  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2023, 10:14 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
Seems like this is a relatively new discovery. More and more tire manufacturers seem to have developed an EV specific tire line. So I'd imagine most early Teslas just came with regular fitted tires. I think as time goes on tire manufacturers through technology will improve the treadwear of the EV specific tires as well. Weights of batteries should come down also.
Depends how "early" we are talking. The 3 comes with EV specific tires in various sized options.

This one by default:

https://tsportline.com/products/mich...18-xl-t1-tesla

It also includes foam inside to help reduce noise.
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  #1614  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2023, 2:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
One of the benefits of EV cars over ICE cars is need for less maintenance. Here's one thing that you would need to replace more often/is more expensive relative to the same component on an ICE car.

Tires.

I think this often gets overlooked but did want to bring it up for discussion since I don't think it's been mentioned here before.
I just read an article the other day about a guy who got a Tesla and shared his costs over the 3 years that he has owned it and says he was very happy. the only figure that remains in my mind was he said he spent about $3500 over the three years on charging costs and they compared it to gas costs would have been over $9000 for the same period, and oil changes and other maintenance costs were above anything he had to worry about with his Tesla, I think he did have to replace tires once.

My tires cost at minimum $1200 to replace all four, on my old car I could get tires for under $500.
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  #1615  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2023, 3:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
One of the benefits of EV cars over ICE cars is need for less maintenance. Here's one thing that you would need to replace more often/is more expensive relative to the same component on an ICE car.
....
They require less maintenance, but it takes jobs away from mechanics, also reduces the average Joe's ability to tinker and provide their own DIY maintenance. This places control, agency, proprietary technical knowledge, and money back into the hands of the manufacturer's corporation, much in the same way that appliances which cannot be repaired anymore does; they just have to be thrown away and replaced. I'm not sure how significant this is, since you can still argue that EVs, being mechanically simpler, provide a more reliable maintenance free product, therefore more environmentally friendly, and possibly cheaper in the long run. However because of more complicated and faster changing technology, and perhaps with limited backwards compatibility, today's EVs could become victims of planned obsolescence faster than ICE do.
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  #1616  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2023, 5:48 AM
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Tesla 3 owner here, I have 36K on my car so far. About 26K of that with original tires that came with the car (the other 10K were with my winters). Had the tires inspected when I got the winters put on a few weeks ago. They are around 30-35% done. So easily another 40-50K left on them. Overall not bad.
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  #1617  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2023, 1:34 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Architype View Post
They require less maintenance, but it takes jobs away from mechanics, also reduces the average Joe's ability to tinker and provide their own DIY maintenance. This places control, agency, proprietary technical knowledge, and money back into the hands of the manufacturer's corporation, much in the same way that appliances which cannot be repaired anymore does; they just have to be thrown away and replaced.
This is true, but it's also the culmination of a trend that's been underway for a long time. I'd guess that far fewer average Joes are tinkering with their cars today than 20 or 30 or 40 years ago. I'm completely dependent on mechanics for everything auto-related, since I basically know nothing about vehicle maintenance. So the idea of a car requiring substantially less maintenance, no regular oil changes, fewer random "that'll be $800" fixes, is very appealing.
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  #1618  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2023, 4:43 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Architype View Post
They require less maintenance, but it takes jobs away from mechanics, also reduces the average Joe's ability to tinker and provide their own DIY maintenance.
Great arguments. Get some old Ford piece of shit if you want to put your mechanic's kids through college.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Architype View Post
This places control, agency, proprietary technical knowledge, and money back into the hands of the manufacturer's corporation, much in the same way that appliances which cannot be repaired anymore does; they just have to be thrown away and replaced.
Have you looked at any modern vehicle? They are the same.

The parts you can't fix/replace are the ones that don't need to exist anymore.
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  #1619  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2023, 5:39 PM
homebucket homebucket is offline
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Watch out, Model Y! The Lyriq is coming for you!

Quote:
US: Cadillac Lyriq Sales Progressed Slowly In Q4 With 86 Units Sold
The manufacturer says that the production continues to increase "to meet strong demand."

By: Mark Kane
Cadillac reports 39,135 vehicle deliveries in the United States during the fourth quarter of 2022, which is almost a 75 percent increase year-over-year. Thanks to this result, the company noted 134,726 deliveries in 2022 - 13.9 percent more than in 2021.

Electrification of the Cadillac brand is just starting (in terms of all-electric cars, and excluding the ELR and CT6 PHV plug-in hybrids from the past).

In Q3, the company delivered the first 36 Cadillac Lyriq and in Q4, the ramp-up progressed, although very slowly. Only 86 units were delivered to customers last quarter. That's about 0.2 percent of the brand's total volume. To be honest, we hoped for more - a few hundred maybe.

It means that 122 units were delivered in total in 2022. Cadillac says that the production (started in March 2022) at the Spring Hill Assembly in Tennessee continues to increase "to meet strong customer demand."

Hopefully, we will see some strong progress in 2023 to reach a rate of hundreds and potentially even several thousand per quarter.

...

We guess that the Cadillac Lyriq ramp-up is not particularly fast because the company has to make sure that the all-new Ultium vehicles as well as the all-new batteries are fully up to specification. Especially since there already was a recall of 186 Cadillac Lyriq (some not yet delivered) because of a touchscreen issue.
https://insideevs.com/news/629506/us...sales-20222q4/
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  #1620  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2023, 5:40 PM
homebucket homebucket is offline
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FYI, there currently is also a stop sale on the Hummer as they are investigating an issue with the improper application of sealant used to enclose the two halves of the battery clamshell, which can allow water to get inside and resulting in loss of power/inability to start.

Hmm... GM and bad batteries... what's new?

Quote:
US: GMC Hummer EV Pickup Truck Sales Slowed Down In Q4 2022 To 72
Paused production at Factory ZERO is the main reason behind the slowdown.

By: Mark Kane
The GMC brand reports 143,645 vehicle deliveries during the fourth quarter of 2022 in the United States, which is 42.3 percent more than a year ago. Also, the annual result is positive at 517,649 (up 7.3 percent year-over-year).

Unfortunately, the ramp-up of the all-electric GMC Hummer EV Pickup has been interrupted by the production pause at Factory ZERO in Detroit and Hamtramck - General Motors' first Ultium-dedicated assembly plant, which must be upgraded to handle additional models (mainly the Chevrolet Silverado EV).

The company reports only 72 deliveries of the GMC Hummer EV Pickup in Q4 - the lowest quarterly result so far (aside from Q4 2021, when the symbolic first unit was delivered).

It's really disappointing, considering that there are thousands of customers waiting for electric Hummers. The company closed reservations for the GMC Hummer EV Pickup and GMC Hummer EV SUV models in September, with more than 90,000 units reserved (backed by $100 refundable deposits). In October, we heard that the Hummer EV duo is sold out for two years.

Overall, 854 GMC Hummer EV Pickups were delivered in 2022. That's about 0.2% of the total brand's volume.
https://insideevs.com/news/629601/us...-sales-2022q4/
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