TCH east of Nipigon (La route transcanadienne à l'est de Nipigon)

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

One would think that if they are that challenging to deal with, you run it all by them and then do it all.

Like all 3 phases?
That may take way too long.
Whatever can be done right now may proceed first, I say.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Like all 3 phases?
That may take way too long.
Whatever can be done right now may proceed first, I say.

What I mean is if all 3 phases run through the same land, then wouldn't it be easier to ask for all instead of coming back and asking for each piece by piece?

[Dengler Avenue]

Hmm I may be wrong.
Let’s see what we can dig out of here: https://4lanehighway17kenora.ca/

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Hmm I may be wrong.
Let’s see what we can dig out of here: https://4lanehighway17kenora.ca/

On things like this, I am sure that you being wrong can be a good thing.

[Dengler Avenue]

Back to the good old 17 & 508:

Notice how there are extra structures up and that the crews are working on a Saturday (highly unusual IMO).

I’m not sharing the ones from late July because there wasn’t much then.

[Dengler Avenue]

https://maps.app.goo.gl/hV83LjwsN88uU7NB6?g_st=ic
Google street view car happened to capture a road enthusiast at 17 & 508.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

https://maps.app.goo.gl/hV83LjwsN88uU7NB6?g_st=ic
Google street view car happened to capture a road enthusiast at 17 & 508.

That you?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

That you?

Nah.
When I went, the crew was still working on the overpass abutments. The steel girders and piers weren’t even there yet.

[Dengler Avenue]

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...51987&page=127 #2527

[Dengler Avenue]

Greater Sudbury CMA
2021: 172,832 2022: 175,357

Thunder Bay CMA
2021: 125,070 2022: 125,334

Sault Ste Marie CA
2021: 80,324 2022: 81,158

North Bay CA
2021: 74,503 2022: 77,037

Timmins CA
2021: 42,427 2022: 42,675
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=1710013501

If there’s any reason to believe that Sudbury will reach 200K and North Bay 100K, it’s time to renew the push to twin 17 between the 2 cities.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

If there’s any reason to believe that Sudbury will reach 200K and North Bay 100K, it’s time to renew the push to twin 17 between the 2 cities.

Before or after 69 becomes 400?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Before or after 69 becomes 400?

I just realized it was an open-ended question. Maybe even before?
If we can leave the 17/69 interchange untouched in the meantime, I can see some possibilities:
(1) twinning SW Bypass bit by bit because a lot of cars actually hop on the bypass from Long Lake Road (Sudbury \80/) and head west
(2) twinning SE Bypass from 69 eastward until before the CN overhead, then realigning the 4 lanes farther east away from the current 6%(!) downgrade, then reverting the roadway to 2 SSM-bound lanes + 1 OTT-bound lane, and finally stop-gapping at Kingsway with a trumpet interchange (like 427 at Major MacKenzie Drive)
(3) extending the divided section around 69 a bit west of Long Lake Road but before access to cottages by Hannah Lake
Option (1) makes more sense traffic-wise, but adding service roads can be a pain in the butt.
Option (2) is a lot easier but the traffic’s probably lower than the SW section.
Option (3) assumes that most trucks are coming from 69 so extending the twinned portion westward by 1.5~2 km to cover Long Lake Road interchange will hopefully reduce driver’s frustration with leading (slow trucks). This is probably cheapest interim option among the (3). The current unprotected access to cottages by Hannah Lake is tricky though.
TBH I haven’t thought much about between Markstay and North Bay yet…

[Dengler Avenue]

On another note, the weather was nice today so I did a spontaneous trip to Petawawa.
After today’s trip, I’m starting to think that only Pembroke and points northwest may be considered Upper Ottawa Valley.
Even Cobden feels pushing it, though I suppose that it can also count as Upper because it falls under the sphere of influence of Pembroke. Highway 17 through there is called Pembroke Street, after all.
On the other hand, Renfrew and points southeast are straight up exurban Ottawa, even if people from Ottawa don’t see it as such. I might be skewed, but when I was in Petawawa and later on Pembroke, I felt a distinct vibe compared to Arnprior & Renfrew.
While Arnprior has its niceties, sitting right on the border with Ottawa means that it inevitably comes under the sphere of influence of the latter. (It also doesn’t help that Ottawa’s zoning policy pretty much doesn’t permit residential developments in hamlets like Carp and Antrim like those in Stittsville and Kanata. It’s quite clear that Carleton Place, Arnprior, McNabb/Braeside, and now Renfrew, are taking full advantage of this.)
Unlike Arnprior, Town of Renfrew is straight up bland, IMO. I don’t see how it can reinvent itself other than as bedroom community of Kanata.

EB Traffic on the 17 originating from Pembroke and Petawawa did not seem light this morning. Petawawa Boulevard has been at full capacity. I can see a case to extend 417 to Petawawa in medium long term. (I think that twinning the highway between Pembroke and Petawawa may relieve the pressure on Petawawa Boulevard.)
At that point, will Petawawa and Pembroke keep their distinct vibes? Or are we going to be at a point where only Head, Clara & Maria and up, that dead zone on the 17 between Ottawa and North Bay, can be considered as Upper Ottawa Valley?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I just realized it was an open-ended question. Maybe even before?
If we can leave the 17/69 interchange untouched in the meantime, I can see some possibilities:
(1) twinning SW Bypass bit by bit because a lot of cars actually hop on the bypass from Long Lake Road (Sudbury \80/) and head west
(2) twinning SE Bypass from 69 eastward until before the CN overhead, then realigning the 4 lanes farther east away from the current 6%(!) downgrade, then reverting the roadway to 2 SSM-bound lanes + 1 OTT-bound lane, and finally stop-gapping at Kingsway with a trumpet interchange (like 427 at Major MacKenzie Drive)
(3) extending the divided section around 69 a bit west of Long Lake Road but before access to cottages by Hannah Lake
Option (1) makes more sense traffic-wise, but adding service roads can be a pain in the butt.
Option (2) is a lot easier but the traffic’s probably lower than the SW section.
Option (3) assumes that most trucks are coming from 69 so extending the twinned portion westward by 1.5~2 km to cover Long Lake Road interchange will hopefully reduce driver’s frustration with leading (slow trucks). This is probably cheapest interim option among the (3). The current unprotected access to cottages by Hannah Lake is tricky though.
TBH I haven’t thought much about between Markstay and North Bay yet…

The SW Bypass ( from MR 55 to Highway 69) is about 12 km.
The SE Bypass (From MR 55 to Highway 69) is about 10 km.
The average twinning project tends to be about 20km. If posted speeds of 80/90 km/hr can be maintained, do it all, from the twinned section to the CP overpass. At the same time, build the North Bay "route 6".That would leave around 100km left. Cut it up into 4 parts, and do 2 of the concurrently. For instance, do from the SE Bypass to Markstay, and then do Verner to Sturgeon Falls at the same time, then do Markstay to Verner and Sturgeon Falls to North Bay. It could be done in 15 years.

[Dengler Avenue]

The average twinning project tends to be about 20km. If posted speeds of 80/90 km/hr can be maintained, do it all, from the twinned section to the CP overpass.

Good point, since we are assuming that we won’t be touching the 17/69 interchange yet, we can do all 20 km together.
Speed limit will unfortunately be down to 70 km/h during active construction but 90 km/h is otherwise maintainable.

For instance, do from the SE Bypass to Markstay, and then do Verner to Sturgeon Falls at the same time, then do Markstay to Verner and Sturgeon Falls to North Bay. It could be done in 15 years.

I emailed the staff at Markstay-Warren and at West Nipissing to ask about the freeway plans and so far it’s been cricket. Without knowing whether MTO’s even mapped out the alignment, 15 years sound ambitious.

On the other hand, the staff from most townships along North Huron Channel (from Desbarats to Espanola) were unanimous that they’ve heard nothing from MTO.
For example, from Township of Huron Shores:

I checked with our Public Work Superintendent and he confirmed that in a recent roads conference, it was still only mentioned as it was then in 2011 as future planning. We have no other reports on our radar at this time.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Good point, since we are assuming that we won’t be touching the 17/69 interchange yet, we can do all 20 km together.
Speed limit will unfortunately be down to 70 km/h during active construction but 90 km/h is otherwise maintainable.

Maintaining 90 km/hr would not piss off too many drivers. Having slow downs as needed also won't piss off to many drivers.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I emailed the staff at Markstay-Warren and at West Nipissing to ask about the freeway plans and so far it’s been cricket. Without knowing whether MTO’s even mapped out the alignment, 15 years sound ambitious.

On the other hand, the staff from most townships along North Huron Channel (from Desbarats to Espanola) were unanimous that they’ve heard nothing from MTO.
For example, from Township of Huron Shores:

There are 6 sections. So, most likely 30 years with the way they are doing 69.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

On another note, the weather was nice today so I did a spontaneous trip to Petawawa.
After today’s trip, I’m starting to think that only Pembroke and points northwest may be considered Upper Ottawa Valley.
Even Cobden feels pushing it, though I suppose that it can also count as Upper because it falls under the sphere of influence of Pembroke. Highway 17 through there is called Pembroke Street, after all.
On the other hand, Renfrew and points southeast are straight up exurban Ottawa, even if people from Ottawa don’t see it as such. I might be skewed, but when I was in Petawawa and later on Pembroke, I felt a distinct vibe compared to Arnprior & Renfrew.
While Arnprior has its niceties, sitting right on the border with Ottawa means that it inevitably comes under the sphere of influence of the latter. (It also doesn’t help that Ottawa’s zoning policy pretty much doesn’t permit residential developments in hamlets like Carp and Antrim like those in Stittsville and Kanata. It’s quite clear that Carleton Place, Arnprior, McNabb/Braeside, and now Renfrew, are taking full advantage of this.)
Unlike Arnprior, Town of Renfrew is straight up bland, IMO. I don’t see how it can reinvent itself other than as bedroom community of Kanata.

EB Traffic on the 17 originating from Pembroke and Petawawa did not seem light this morning. Petawawa Boulevard has been at full capacity. I can see a case to extend 417 to Petawawa in medium long term. (I think that twinning the highway between Pembroke and Petawawa may relieve the pressure on Petawawa Boulevard.)
At that point, will Petawawa and Pembroke keep their distinct vibes? Or are we going to be at a point where only Head, Clara & Maria and up, that dead zone on the 17 between Ottawa and North Bay, can be considered as Upper Ottawa Valley?

I am not familiar enough with Renfrew to judge, but based on the suburban-type of development I’ve seen there, it does appear to be within Ottawa’s area of influence to some extent. As for Arnprior, yes it has essentially become an exurb of Ottawa. The subdivisions that popped up along the 417 are a strong evidence. As you say, development in the rural parts of Ottawa is severely restricted, so this development simply spills over to places like Arnprior, Clarence-Rockland or Kemptville.

[Dengler Avenue]

I am not familiar enough with Renfrew to judge, but based on the suburban-type of development I’ve seen there, it does appear to be within Ottawa’s area of influence to some extent.

Indeed. Most houses in Renfrew are old, but there’s a new subdivision near 60/17 where some houses were built as recently as 2019(!).
Meanwhile, I’ve also come across new Lépine apartments on the south side of O’Brien Street.

Maybe for Petawawa and Pembroke, without the 417, Ottawa’s pretty much out of sight, out of mind.
Renfrew may be half and half.
Definitely not Arnprior

Ps: One afternoon, when I was driving east on 417 through Carp during rush hour, the stream of single-occupancy vehicles was quite the view.

[Dengler Avenue]

Testing a link:

It should be working...

[Dengler Avenue]

https://www.tbnewswatch.com/local-ne...y-1117-6830706
This is quite the wild west...