AUSTIN | Project Updates Thread Part II

[The ATX]

That ground floor on the 422 looks like retail space to me, but that two tiered sidewalk is weird.

[Syndic]

Originally Posted by Hill Country

That ground floor on the 422 looks like retail space to me, but that two tiered sidewalk is weird.

Maybe only on the far northern part, but at the entrance there, that's obviously a lobby and there doesn't seem to be any retail on the southern side. It's pretty disappointing. It should be retail all around. I know I harp on this a lot but I'm tired of this lazy, faux-urbanism. It doesn't add to Austin's culture and make it livelier at all. It's the same shit as Shoal Creek Walk. But look at Corazon. They did it right, with maximum retail all around.



That's a developer who belongs here and should be valued. Alliance Residential (422 developer) has a lot to learn about the Austin market and developing urbanism. This isn't the suburbs, so they need to stop treating it like it.

[jngreenlee]

Originally Posted by Hill Country

Sorry for not keeping up. But what is this?

This is the new proposed Capitol View Corridor. The green area will allow 4 stories.

[wwmiv]

Sorry, but that betrays a fundamental naïveté about the market fundamentals. There's no way that every project can support ground level retail. Period. Instead, we should be supporting a good geographic distribution of ground level retail among new projects. Not every project is going to be capable of supporting a ton of new retail because our population density is simply not there yet. As time goes on, we'll see more and more retail in projects because there will be more and more population that can sustain it.

For an example of this, see the success rate of businesses on 2nd street. Many spots have high turnover rates because a) the rent is too damned high because property values are insane and b) because those businesses are not able to meet that rent for reasons other than the cost (I.E. their sales are not sufficient because the population density is not high enough).

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by Hill Country

Sorry for not keeping up. But what is this?

Jdawgboy and a couple of others were suggesting the state could sell off that green section of land on the Texas School for the Deaf's campus. I just drew the outline of the property in blue and that slice of land in green to show it.

The idea was that the land could be redeveloped with shops and restaurants along South Congress like what is already up and down SoCo, and maybe add a few floors of mixed use above it.

[Syndic]

I don't know how long it's been since you've been to Austin, wwmiv, but our population density is not a problem. If businesses in prime locations aren't making it, then there's either a lack of demand for what they're selling or these buildings are charging too much for rent. But this doesn't seem to be a problem in East Austin or South Congress where ground floor retailers are thriving. There's so much foot traffic by this building that it shouldn't be a problem, given the retailer is selling something in demand.

And re: "There's no way that every project can support ground level retail", I disagree with this. More mixed-use housing developments = more jobs. More jobs = more demand for housing. It's a virtuous cycle.

[The ATX]

I was glancing through the site plan, and there doesn't appear to be any retail. The drawings beginning around page 20 are a good place to start looking for it.

https://www.austintexas.gov/devrevie...erRSN=10861677

[Syndic]

SMH...

Suburban developments in urban environments...

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Syndic

I don't know how long it's been since you've been to Austin, wwmiv, but our population density is not a problem. If businesses in prime locations aren't making it, then there's either a lack of demand for what they're selling or these buildings are charging too much for rent. But this doesn't seem to be a problem in East Austin or South Congress where ground floor retailers are thriving. There's so much foot traffic by this building that it shouldn't be a problem, given the retailer is selling something in demand.

And re: "There's no way that every project can support ground level retail", I disagree with this. More mixed-use housing developments = more jobs. More jobs = more demand for housing. It's a virtuous cycle.

Bruh, Austin's population density is a problem. The only cities in the United States capable of supporting ground level retail in every project on every block are New York, Chicago, and San Francisco. That's it. Every other city requires various degrees of off blocks. And that's fine. We just have to accept that some projects will not have retail. Most projects will and should, but some won't.

Oh, and guess what: even those cities don't have retail on every block. We have retail on most blocks downtown, so step off your ridiculously high bar and recognize reality.

[wwmiv]

And don't go lording not living in Austin over me. I'm from Austin, my family lives in Austin, I grew up in Austin, and I visit frequently. Oh, and I'll also note that my Ph.D.'s focus is in political demography, so this is an area of research that I am intimately familiar with.

[Jdawgboy]

I think 2nd Street is over the lack of foot traffic hump now and the turnover rate will lower though rent could still be a problem for some. Every time I go to 2nd Street there are more and more people everywhere. The newly opened JW will enhance foot traffic even more. Night time on 2nd Street just mesmerizes me. I'm so glad they have added the year around lighting on the trees like Congress. It really feels cosmopolitan and like a big city. I also love the lighting around the base of the Ashton that compliments the lighting on it's crown. The changing colors are bright and vivid and it adds to the environment along a section that doesn't have ground retail.

[Myomi]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

Bruh, Austin's population density is a problem. The only cities in the United States capable of supporting ground level retail in every project on every block are New York, Chicago, and San Francisco. That's it. Every other city requires various degrees of off blocks. And that's fine. We just have to accept that some projects will not have retail. Most projects will and should, but some won't.

Oh, and guess what: even those cities don't have retail on every block. We have retail on most blocks downtown, so step off your ridiculously high bar and recognize reality.

Absolutely agree. The density in Austin still has a very long way to go, and it will require a whole new way of thinking of not just downtown, but a lot of the neighborhoods surrounding the central city.

Hell, I currently live in a neighborhood in Boston (the North End) that has 10,000 people living in .33 square miles. That's a population density of 30,000 a square mile...double what you see in the densest area of 78705 (West Campus). And this neighborhood mainly has limited retail centered on two streets with a good, but limited spread of spots throughout the other streets. The majority of buildings do not have any retail located in them. Lots of restaurants for sure, but most of the retail is convenience retail and services (laundry, real estate, beauty, etc.). And, on top of that, we have several spots currently vacant and looking for tenants. With the rise of online retail, even the most population dense areas don't have the demand to support retail EVERYWHERE. And this is in very high density cities like mentioned by WWMIV. To expect that in a relatively low density city like Austin...that's just not recognizing reality.

[Syndic]

Originally Posted by Jdawgboy

I'm so glad they have added the year around lighting on the trees like Congress.

You don't think it cheapens the Christmas holiday season? Personally, I don't want Christmas lights up on these trees year-round. They're Christmas lights. For Christmas. What are they doing up in July? Seriously. I hate it. Just once I want to see what it looks like at night without the Christmas lights.

@wwmiv, "bruh"(?), I'm just saying that we have plenty of people who will be customers here in Austin, whether that population is dense or not. People will drive and park and walk to places. This happens all the time right now. Downtown is swarming with people at all times. Maybe some of your previously held notions about what a city can be are mistaken. There's ground floor retail all around Austin and it's all doing fine.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Syndic

You don't think it cheapens the Christmas holiday season? Personally, I don't want Christmas lights up on these trees year-round. They're Christmas lights. For Christmas. What are they doing up in July? Seriously. I hate it. Just once I want to see what it looks like at night without the Christmas lights.

@wwmiv, "bruh"(?), I'm just saying that we have plenty of people who will be customers here in Austin, whether that population is dense or not. People will drive and park and walk to places. This happens all the time right now. Downtown is swarming with people at all times. Maybe some of your previously held notions about what a city can be are mistaken. There's ground floor retail all around Austin and it's all doing fine.

No they won't. That's just not recognizing reality, bruh (link).

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Myomi

Absolutely agree. The density in Austin still has a very long way to go, and it will require a whole new way of thinking of not just downtown, but a lot of the neighborhoods surrounding the central city.

Hell, I currently live in a neighborhood in Boston (the North End) that has 10,000 people living in .33 square miles. That's a population density of 30,000 a square mile...double what you see in the densest area of 78705 (West Campus). And this neighborhood mainly has limited retail centered on two streets with a good, but limited spread of spots throughout the other streets. The majority of buildings do not have any retail located in them. Lots of restaurants for sure, but most of the retail is convenience retail and services (laundry, real estate, beauty, etc.). And, on top of that, we have several spots currently vacant and looking for tenants. With the rise of online retail, even the most population dense areas don't have the demand to support retail EVERYWHERE. And this is in very high density cities like mentioned by WWMIV. To expect that in a relatively low density city like Austin...that's just not recognizing reality.

Thank you! Like seriously. We need to have realistic standards.

[KevinFromTexas]

Regarding the retail on every block issue, I get what wwmiv is saying. Still, it doesn't seem to stop the national chains from flooding markets with the very same store just miles apart.

I think the real problem is the product diversity is lacking in urban environments. What I mean is there are plenty of coffee shops, and corner stores are on the rise which is great, but what about other things? Where are the furniture stores, insurance stores, hardware stores, etc? I know those things are less sexy and not very trendy, but if we had more of those I'm sure there would be more blocks with retail.

[LoneStarMike]

Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas

I think the real problem is the product diversity is lacking in urban environments. What I mean is there are plenty of coffee shops, and corner stores are on the rise which is great, but what about other things? Where are the furniture stores, insurance stores, hardware stores, etc?

Those are the types of retail that would be patronized by residents of the area. It seems like most of our retail downtown (restaurants, bars, high-end boutiques, etc.) cater to our visitors and residents who go out for entertainment. I think Mayor Wynn's goal was to have 25,000 residents living downtown by 2015 and I don't think we're anywhere near that. As our downtown residential population grows, hopefully we'll see more "everyday" retail like the ones you mentioned, as well as more dry cleaners and drug stores. Isn't CVS the only drug store downtown?

[AusTxDevelopment]

Originally Posted by LoneStarMike

... I think Mayor Wynn's goal was to have 25,000 residents living downtown by 2015 and I don't think we're anywhere near that. ...

According to the Downtown Austin Alliance's 2014 Annual Report, we have approximately 10,000 downtown residents. Page 17: http://www.downtownaustin.com/sites/...port_Final.pdf

By the way, that report has some interesting statistics in it - covers everything from retail to hotels to office to economy and much more.

[priller]

Some photos from inside the J W Marriott lobby today:








From the 2nd floor:

[Syndic]

We may only have 10,000 residents but when you factor in all the hotel guests, workers, and daily visitors, it's quite a lot of people. Maybe close to 17,500. And it's only increasing. I mean, by itself, J.W. Marriott is supposed to employ 800 people. I'm not sure how that's possible but that's what they said. And just consider that during big events hotels could average 2-3 people per room.

Edit: Wait a second, I totally didn't factor in the capitol complex. It's easily 25,000 people downtown on a good day if you count all 10,000 residents.