The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The new Hamilton service also rights an odd condition where Canada's 9th largest CMA and largest CMA were connected by only 4 peak hour trains, despite only being about 60 kilometres apart. It will now be easy for someone from Toronto to go check out a new restaurant or concert in Hamilton and take the train home, and vice-versa.

It's pretty exciting stuff to consider how much more improvements and connectivity can come between Toronto & Hamilton in the future. I've taken that GO Express bus a few times between Union and Hamilton and am very much looking forward to the increased train frequency.

[Reecemartin]

Toronto Union Station is FINALLY COMPLETE?! Enjoy this tour of the newly-reopened Bay Concourse!

https://youtu.be/-1wykxGgfec

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Toronto Union Station is FINALLY COMPLETE?! Enjoy this tour of the newly-reopened Bay Concourse!

https://youtu.be/-1wykxGgfec

I watched it last night and was good, and now Strides has his own tour published!
You guys sure are fast!
• Video Link

[Larch]

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[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Larch

uhhh integrated Presto cards have been around for years, covering the GTHA and ottawa /OC transpo

Payment integration =\= fare integration.

That said there is some fare integration in the GTA.

[Larch]

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[begratto]

Originally Posted by Larch

right, but Presto includes both. i can't speak to each individual agency, but fares are integrated by reduced transfer costs, at least from GO to TTC, or GO to HSR. i can't imagine this integration would ever become more widespread (e.g integrating fares from Hamilton HSR to whatever Oshawa's system is called)

Montreal will be doing 100% fare integration. Implementation has already started and will be completed by 2024.

Fares will be zone-based instead of operator-based. You will be able to travel by bus, métro, REM and trains and transfer between modes with no additional costs.

In the Toronto context, imagine buying a "Hamilton zone" to "Toronto central" zone ticket, let's say for $13,60 (which is the current cost for a GO train ticket). You'd be able to take the bus or Light Rail in Hamilton, transfer to the GO train, take it all the way to Union, transfer on the subway, and finally catch a TTC bus to reach your final destination. All of this on a single ticket, and with no extra costs for the transfers between the different modes, systems and agencies.

Why couldn't this be done in the GTA? All it takes is the political will.


ARTM Fare Reform

[jamincan]

GO has fares zones too... 97 of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GO_Transit_fares

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by begratto

Montreal will be doing 100% fare integration. Implementation has already started and will be completed by 2024.

Fares will be zone-based instead of operator-based. You will be able to travel by bus, métro, REM and trains and transfer between modes with no additional costs.

In the Toronto context, imagine buying a "Hamilton zone" to "Toronto central" zone ticket, let's say for $13,60 (which is the current cost for a GO train ticket). You'd be able to take the bus or Light Rail in Hamilton, transfer to the GO train, take it all the way to Union, transfer on the subway, and finally catch a TTC bus to reach your final destination. All of this on a single ticket, and with no extra costs for the transfers between the different modes, systems and agencies.

Why couldn't this be done in the GTA? All it takes is the political will.


ARTM Fare Reform

If that's the current cost for just the GO segment then charging that for the total trip that involves services from two other operators means a significant price cut. And with all three operators having fare recovery ratios of less than 100% that means greater subsidies will be needed. That's certainly something that can be done with political will, but it's a separate issue from integration imo. If jurisdictions wanted to lower fare prices by covering a larger portion of the operating costs with subsidies, they could already be doing it whether it was coordinated between operators or not.

I think it's obvious that everyone likes lower prices but I think that should be treated as a separate issue from integration which should be addressed mostly as an issue of clarity and convenience. As it stands, I haven't heard of the involved transit agencies having trouble attracting patronage due to overly high prices. In fact, transit agencies in Canada often have higher percapita ridership than agencies serving similar population catchments in the US despite subsidizing a lower proportion of their costs.

[begratto]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

If that's the current cost for just the GO segment then charging that for the total trip that involves services from two other operators means a significant price cut. And with all three operators having fare recovery ratios of less than 100% that means greater subsidies will be needed. That's certainly something that can be done with political will, but it's a separate issue from integration imo. If jurisdictions wanted to lower fare prices by covering a larger portion of the operating costs with subsidies, they could already be doing it whether it was coordinated between operators or not.

I think it's obvious that everyone likes lower prices but I think that should be treated as a separate issue from integration which should be addressed mostly as an issue of clarity and convenience. As it stands, I haven't heard of the involved transit agencies having trouble attracting patronage due to overly high prices. In fact, transit agencies in Canada often have higher percapita ridership than agencies serving similar population catchments in the US despite subsidizing a lower proportion of their costs.

But high fares AND non-integration (you're right that they're 2 separate issues) both reduce potential ridership.

Look at this example, I wanted to go visit someone on the north side of Laval, leaving from my home in south-west Montreal. 30km in total.

1) First I had to buy a STM ticket to take the Métro ($3.50)
2) Once at de la Concorde, I had to find the vending machine and buy a train ticket to Gare Ste-Rose ($8 for 2 stops)
3) Then I had to have enough change to pay the fare on the STL bus, as there are no STL vending machines at gare Ste-Rose (another $3.50)

Total : $15 ! AND I had to plan enough time to buy the various fares. Both complex and expensive.

Alternatively, I could have stopped at métro Montmorency and catch a STL bus instead of the train. It reduces the total fare to $7, but adds another 30 minute to my journey.

With the new ARTM integrated fares, I will only have to buy ONE ticket at my departure point, it will be less costly AND will not penalize me based on the transportion mode I use.

I'm sure "leisure" ridership (i.e. people who use transit occasionnaly and do not have a monthly pass) will increase with the integrated fares.

[Beedok]

Mhm, most transit isn't running at full capacity, so lowering prices with integration could actually improve overall revenue for each agency involved by increasing ridership.

[Innsertnamehere]

Also, most 905 transit agencies have had fare integration with GO for a long time now. Not sure if Hamilton does or not, but for most local agencies the fare is like $0.75 if you connect to GO.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Bloomberg and a few other forecasters are suggesting purchase price parity between diesel and electric buses sometime later in the decade. So it's unlikely that most transit agencies will be operating diesel buses well into the 2040s.

It makes sense for some agencies like HSR to stay with CNG until later in the decade I guess until cost and performance meet their needs. The rest, in Canada, will be all electric by 2040 at the latest. The Americans are probably only 5 years behind us.

The switch from diesel filling stations to battery charging stations will be the real challenge. For places like the major cities, within the next decade they will be switching as they retire buses. For them, the have the capital to do it. For smaller cities and towns, if the federal or provincial governments were to cover the charging infrastructure, the would change as fast. However, the smaller agencies tend to hold onto their fleet longer, so their changeover will likely take longer.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I can't wait for GO RER. Wish they could speed up the timeline. I think AD2W throughout the GTA is really going to change how people think about transit (only to get to work) and regional travel.

AD2W will change things, but what really will is fare and payment integration.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Payment integration =\= fare integration.

That said there is some fare integration in the GTA.

Originally Posted by jamincan

GO has fares zones too... 97 of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GO_Transit_fares

I feel that having each agency as a fare zone may make things better. Requiring Presto in all agencies linked by GO would also be a step in the right direction.

I almost feel it is time to get rid of the "local" transit agencies for this to really work well.

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I feel that having each agency as a fare zone may make things better. Requiring Presto in all agencies linked by GO would also be a step in the right direction.

Thankfully that's mostly been done by now, every transport agency in the golden horseshoe uses Presto, the only stragglers seem to be the GRT in Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge and whatever they have in Guelph

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

For smaller cities and towns, if the federal or provincial governments were to cover the charging infrastructure, the would change as fast. However, the smaller agencies tend to hold onto their fleet longer, so their changeover will likely take longer.

Smaller cities are doing quite well with electrification. Kingston, for example, just got their first electric bus yesterday. Guelph was one of the first cities out of the gate with a CIB deal, a year and a half ago. It's going well enough that the CIB's CEO says they are going to start prioritizing bus electrification over other projects like subways.

The head of a federal infrastructure financing agency says he has seen a shift in the types of transit projects cities want to build as they opt for zero-emission buses in lieu of large-scale subways.
....
The bank has set aside $5 billion in spending in the short-term on transit projects, with about $1.5 billion of that going towards helping transit operators replace aging diesel buses with zero-emission fleets.

Along with the most recent announcement of financing to Brampton, Ont., a loan of up to $400 million for the purchase of 450 zero-emission buses by 2027, the agency has committed roughly $1 billion in financing towards zero-emission buses.

Cory says the agency won't hesitate to adjust its investment plans if demand for zero-emission buses outstrips the current financing targets.

"Just to be clear, though, we're quite flexible. And if that ends up being $2 billion for (zero-emission bus fleets) and $3 billion for other things like light rail, that will still be just fine," he said in an interview.

"Our goal is to deploy our capital in the transit space. The outcomes we care about are transit ridership and GHG reduction, and it's up to the owners of those the fleet owners, municipalities, to make the trade-offs."
...

https://www.nationalobserver.com/2021/07...re-bank-agency-spend-zero-emission-buses

I'd say the smaller transit agencies in the country have probably never had this supportive a federal partner. If they aren't locking down a deal with the CIB to electrify their fleets, that's on them. And who knows how long this lasts if there's a change of government.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by ShavedParmesanCheese

Thankfully that's mostly been done by now, every transport agency in the golden horseshoe uses Presto, the only stragglers seem to be the GRT in Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge and whatever they have in Guelph

Presto didn't respond to the RFP for electronic fare systems when Waterloo Region sent it out, so were never an option to begin with. Even then, at the time, they couldn't meet the basic requirements the region had (critically single-ride tickets and integration with a U-pass for university students), so they would have been disqualified from the outset. You also have to remember that at the time, Presto was terrible. Like horrendously bad. Even if they could meet the qualifications, and had submitted a proposal, there is no guarantee that they would have won due to their poor performance elsewhere in the province.

Other regions were forced by the province to use Presto, as I recall, though I may be misremembering.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by jamincan

Other regions were forced by the province to use Presto, as I recall, though I may be misremembering.

Yep. Ottawa was forced on to Presto as part of LRT funding. So now Ottawa has Presto, Gatineau next door has Multi, and the major cities in Quebec have Opus. The closest other agency to use Presto is over 350 km away in the GTA. Presto is entirely irrelevant everywhere other than the GGH.

Honestly, I don't even see the point anymore. Smaller transit agencies that don't have integration needs can just go open payment. It's not like Kingston or Belleville or London or North Bay or Sudbury need something like Presto.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Smaller cities are doing quite well with electrification. Kingston, for example, just got their first electric bus yesterday. Guelph was one of the first cities out of the gate with a CIB deal, a year and a half ago. It's going well enough that the CIB's CEO says they are going to start prioritizing bus electrification over other projects like subways.



https://www.nationalobserver.com/2021/07...re-bank-agency-spend-zero-emission-buses

I'd say the smaller transit agencies in the country have probably never had this supportive a federal partner. If they aren't locking down a deal with the CIB to electrify their fleets, that's on them. And who knows how long this lasts if there's a change of government.

When do the cities like Thunder Bay, Sault St Marie, Timmins North Bay and Sudbury get their new electric buses?

[MonctonRad]

Codiac Transpo (greater Moncton transit) just finished refreshing their entire fleet of 50 odd busses a couple of years ago. I presume we won't be getting electrics now for 20 years.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

When do the cities like Thunder Bay, Sault St Marie, Timmins North Bay and Sudbury get their new electric buses?

That's entirely up to them.

The feds aren't handing out electric buses like some Santa Claus. It's up to each agency to put together a fleet electrification plan and then approach the CIB for a financing package (combination of loans and grants).

I see that some of their councils at have taken up the issue.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6022626

https://northernontario.ctvnews.ca/sault...ooks-at-electric-fleet-options-1.4845399

https://www.timminspress.com/news/local-...af32dc4-82a6-4b40-a35a-8f68390fd30f/amp/

Maybe the residents in those towns should be asking their councillors why they are only starting the work in 2021.