The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I know, but that doesn't mean the whine will stop.

It never does. But that doesn't mean we should give time and attention to the hypocrites who want cheap gas and free highways and low taxes but complain why we don't have bullet trains to Flin Flon.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

No, not exactly what is happening with HFR.

Post HFR, VIA might be close to half its passenger-miles running on its own track. If HFR is then extended till Windsor, easily 90% of VIA's trains and passenger miles will be on track VIA owns. This is exactly why HFR is transformative.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It never does. But that doesn't mean we should give time and attention to the hypocrites who want cheap gas and free highways and low taxes but complain why we don't have bullet trains to Flin Flon.

What about those who complain of lack of regular passenger service daily outside of the Corridor?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Post HFR, VIA might be close to half its passenger-miles running on its own track. If HFR is then extended till Windsor, easily 90% of VIA's trains and passenger miles will be on track VIA owns. This is exactly why HFR is transformative.

I like how you wiggled that. .... passenger miles. What about actual miles of tracks that are used by Via?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

What about those who complain of lack of regular passenger service daily outside of the Corridor?

What about them? There will never be a business case to serve them substantially. Maybe the odd long haul train bumps up to daily. But that'll be even more of a rounding error to a post-HFR VIA with 10M in Corridor ridership.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I like how you wiggled that. .... passenger miles. What about actual miles of tracks that are used by Via?

Who cares? Seriously. We aren't going to ever buy up or build corridor for routes with 1-2 trains per day (or usually less). What matters is that the majority of VIA's trains and passengers travel on track owned by VIA. That is what will convince the majority of Canadians that intercity rail is viable. No regular person really gives a damn whether the Canadian runs daily or 4x per week.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What about them? There will never be a business case to serve them substantially. Maybe the odd long haul train bumps up to daily. But that'll be even more of a rounding error to a post-HFR VIA with 10M in Corridor ridership.

Then accept the whine.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Who cares? Seriously. We aren't going to ever buy up or build corridor for routes with 1-2 trains per day (or usually less). What matters is that the majority of VIA's trains and passengers travel on track owned by VIA. That is what will convince the majority of Canadians that intercity rail is viable. No regular person really gives a damn whether the Canadian runs daily or 4x per week.

I am not suggesting that. I am simply suggesting when someone says something like "passenger miles, it sounds like a political answer."

[someone123]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

What about those who complain of lack of regular passenger service daily outside of the Corridor?

People don't think this way about other services or capital expenditures. A highway built in New Brunswick is not thought to come at the expense of one built in Ontario nor does a bus route running in BC necessarily take one away from Quebec. There is not a fixed supply of buses in Canada nor is there really a fixed level of overall rail service.

The feeling of zero sum regional competition is an artificial situation created by the way the federal government doles out money and has organized VIA and the railways.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by someone123

People don't think this way about other services or capital expenditures. A highway built in New Brunswick is not thought to come at the expense of one built in Ontario nor does a bus route running in BC necessarily take one away from Quebec. There is not a fixed supply of buses in Canada nor is there really a fixed level of overall rail service.

The feeling of zero sum regional competition is an artificial situation created by the way the federal government doles out money and has organized VIA and the railways.

Even then, a dollar spent on railways does not have to equal a dollar spent on railways elsewhere. If we must match federal spending (and it's probably best for national cohesion that we broadly do), then it would be better to dish it out on the things that would be best in each province, which may be a road, a port, an airport, a pipeline, better internet or any number of things.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by someone123

People don't think this way about other services or capital expenditures. A highway built in New Brunswick is not thought to come at the expense of one built in Ontario nor does a bus route running in BC necessarily take one away from Quebec. There is not a fixed supply of buses in Canada nor is there really a fixed level of overall rail service.

The feeling of zero sum regional competition is an artificial situation created by the way the federal government doles out money and has organized VIA and the railways.

Try telling that to the federal parties whom seem to do exactly that. It's all about winning the next election, not doing what is best for the area.

Originally Posted by milomilo

Even then, a dollar spent on railways does not have to equal a dollar spent on railways elsewhere. If we must match federal spending (and it's probably best for national cohesion that we broadly do), then it would be better to dish it out on the things that would be best in each province, which may be a road, a port, an airport, a pipeline, better internet or any number of things.

If only it were that simple. Those things, may seem to be equal, but when a new subway open up in Toronto, people in Halifax are not thinking about a new highway or port expansion.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If only it were that simple. Those things, may seem to be equal, but when a new subway open up in Toronto, people in Halifax are not thinking about a new highway or port expansion.

That may be, but thank heavens that the government doesn't feel that every time it builds a 10km subway in Toronto it has to build a 1 km subway in Halifax just to be fair.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by jamincan

That may be, but thank heavens that the government doesn't feel that every time it builds a 10km subway in Toronto it has to build a 1 km subway in Halifax just to be fair.

That is true and nor should it, but it should be spending some amount of money on improving transportation in areas other areas than Toronto. It doesn't even have to be the same amount per capita or per rider but there needs to be a more equitable funding model in Canada at both the federal and provincial levels. It is quite reasonable to say that many parts the Maritimes and the Rest of Canada , including areas of relatively high population don't get any service or funding at all.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

It is quite reasonable to say that many parts the Maritimes and the Rest of Canada , including areas of relatively high population don't get any service or funding at all.

Nonsense. Not getting service from VIA does not equate to no "service or funding at all". The feds fund plenty of different services in every region of the country.

This is like arguing that Ontario gets ignored because we don't get the same amount of federal funding for ferries as the Maritimes or BC.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If only it were that simple. Those things, may seem to be equal, but when a new subway open up in Toronto, people in Halifax are not thinking about a new highway or port expansion.

Rubbish. They may not want a highway or port expansion, but that doesn't mean they automatically want whatever Toronto got. If they even are aware of infrastructure spending at all, which is unlikely. I don't think I've ever heard anyone in Calgary mention infrastructure projects being built outside of this province (except perhaps roads in BC) at all. They don't even talk about infrastructure in Edmonton. The vast majority of people don't nerd out on this stuff like we do, all they care about is the infrastructure in our back yard and it doesn't even matter who pays for it really.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

That is true and nor should it, but it should be spending some amount of money on improving transportation in areas other areas than Toronto. It doesn't even have to be the same amount per capita or per rider but there needs to be a more equitable funding model in Canada at both the federal and provincial levels. It is quite reasonable to say that many parts the Maritimes and the Rest of Canada , including areas of relatively high population don't get any service or funding at all.

Funny, despite the fact Calgary has no VIA service, we are getting $1.5 billion of federal money spent on passenger rail service over the next few years. That seems fairly proportional to what other cities get.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

That is true and nor should it, but it should be spending some amount of money on improving transportation in areas other areas than Toronto. It doesn't even have to be the same amount per capita or per rider but there needs to be a more equitable funding model in Canada at both the federal and provincial levels. It is quite reasonable to say that many parts the Maritimes and the Rest of Canada , including areas of relatively high population don't get any service or funding at all.

Do the analysis and you will find that funding levels from the feds complies entirely with the bolded above for allocation between provinces.

Allocation within provinces on the other hand--that is mostly up to the provinces and the municipalities themselves. Only very recently was some funding, not nearly all, allocated on a ridership basis (this was very short term funding for stimulus originally). I am not sure today for the new mass transit fund, but that is so far away it doesn't matter for today's purposes.

In the end, should a locality with very little to no mass transit get an allocation just because it exists? No. We should trust the locality in deciding that mass transit is not a priority for its residents. Doing otherwise would be a violation of the principle of subsidiarity.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Funny, despite the fact Calgary has no VIA service, we are getting $1.5 billion of federal money spent on passenger rail service over the next few years. That seems fairly proportional to what other cities get.

No, no, no. That is not how that works. Infrastructure bank money is a loan, not a grant. And is no where near the total amount. Equating loans (which are worth the difference between the minimal interest rate vs. what commercial terms are) and grants (worth the full amount) is wrong, and you should stop.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

No, no, no. That is not how that works. Infrastructure bank money is a loan, not a grant. And is no where near the total amount. Equating loans (which are worth the difference between the minimal interest rate vs. what commercial terms are) and grants (worth the full amount) is wrong, and you should stop.

I was talking about the Green Line, which is a railway that carries passengers. I was being deliberately non specific to make a point, some on this thread think the only form of federal spending on transit should be in the form of VIA as it currently exists on the prairies, whether or not it serves the people well.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by jamincan

That may be, but thank heavens that the government doesn't feel that every time it builds a 10km subway in Toronto it has to build a 1 km subway in Halifax just to be fair.

Or Calgary gets a new ferry service....

Originally Posted by GoTrans

That is true and nor should it, but it should be spending some amount of money on improving transportation in areas other areas than Toronto. It doesn't even have to be the same amount per capita or per rider but there needs to be a more equitable funding model in Canada at both the federal and provincial levels. It is quite reasonable to say that many parts the Maritimes and the Rest of Canada , including areas of relatively high population don't get any service or funding at all.

That is why I push for Via too operate a minimum of 1 train a day on all their routes, and that they should connect the the largest cities in Canada to each other by rail. If that was their mandate, our rail would improve everywhere. It wouldn't mean 10 trains a day for Halifax, but it would mean options would exist.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Nonsense. Not getting service from VIA does not equate to no "service or funding at all". The feds fund plenty of different services in every region of the country.

This is like arguing that Ontario gets ignored because we don't get the same amount of federal funding for ferries as the Maritimes or BC.

Ferries are different than rail or roads. Ferries need water, and a pattern that would support water transportation. The thing that really matters is that the Ferries in ON should have a frequency high enough to make it relevant. Imagine the Toronto Islands ferry operating once a day, 3 days a week alternating days that it moves each direction. At what point would people wanting to go to/from the islands think jumping in the harbour and swimming the distance be the better option?

Originally Posted by milomilo

Rubbish. They may not want a highway or port expansion, but that doesn't mean they automatically want whatever Toronto got. If they even are aware of infrastructure spending at all, which is unlikely. I don't think I've ever heard anyone in Calgary mention infrastructure projects being built outside of this province (except perhaps roads in BC) at all. They don't even talk about infrastructure in Edmonton. The vast majority of people don't nerd out on this stuff like we do, all they care about is the infrastructure in our back yard and it doesn't even matter who pays for it really.

The most truest thing you have ever said. The question is, what do most people want. I'd argue wither it be a city bus or a highway coach, most people don't care about how frequent buses are running or their cost. Where people start to car i something like an LRT/Streetcar/Subway/metro/commuter rail/intercity rail. Look at how the town of South River is going nuts trying to get their station added to the Northlander service. They already are served by buses.

Originally Posted by milomilo

Funny, despite the fact Calgary has no VIA service, we are getting $1.5 billion of federal money spent on passenger rail service over the next few years. That seems fairly proportional to what other cities get.

That is a great idea, and it will help the NP deal with the high congestion.

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

In the end, should a locality with very little to no mass transit get an allocation just because it exists? No. We should trust the locality in deciding that mass transit is not a priority for its residents. Doing otherwise would be a violation of the principle of subsidiarity.

The problem with our statement is that it is only good if you want to ignore the challenges of having cars existing. Certain small towns in Northern ON like Sturgeon Falls and Espanola; to name a few, could have a single bus, once an hour serve them and serve them well. If the province came in and said they would pay for it, and the town can plan it out, it would likely work well. With your thinking, it is only the big cities that should get anything. Moving t a small town shouldn't mean getting ignored.

[Truenorth00]

Brampton is finalizing a $400M financing deal with the CIB to acquire 450 electric buses and move to an all-electric fleet by 2027.

https://www.brampton.ca/EN/City-Hall/News/Pages/Media-Release.aspx/936

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The problem with our statement is that it is only good if you want to ignore the challenges of having cars existing. Certain small towns in Northern ON like Sturgeon Falls and Espanola; to name a few, could have a single bus, once an hour serve them and serve them well. If the province came in and said they would pay for it, and the town can plan it out, it would likely work well. With your thinking, it is only the big cities that should get anything. Moving t a small town shouldn't mean getting ignored.

That is up to the small town.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

With your thinking, it is only the big cities that should get anything. Moving to a small town shouldn't mean getting ignored.

Why can't I move to a small town and get big city services? All I ask is that provincial taxpayers foot the bill of my fiscally unsustainable lifestyle. Is that too much to ask?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

That is up to the small town.

Exactly. There's absolutely nothing stopping small towns from having transit, except their own cheapskate residents who see transit as a big city thing that hardy self-reliant country boys with pickup trucks don't need.

So we get railfans here complaining that provincial taxpayers should foot the bill instead.

We see rural transit all over the world. I've literally been in small towns in Europe where it's a large van going in circles. But these folks don't want to actually fund that locally.