Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

That map shows community council boundaries, which is only 1 way to define boundaries.

For example, the Downtown Alliance covers the area between about 500W (though it goes to 600W to cover central station) and 450 E, from North Temple to 400 South, which I think is a bit more reasonable, and likely closer to what most people would consider downtown.

These are the official boundaries as recognized by the city. The reason I point that out is because it could explain why there's very little height east of State Street.

[Blah_Amazing]

What actually matters for development is the Zoning Map, since they are the actual guiding policies dictating things like height, setbacks, parking, etc. Neighborhoods are mostly irrelevant when it comes to actual development projects, since there is a lot of zoning spillover from one neighborhood to the other. The main use of neighborhoods was for master plans that can provide overarching goals and development frameworks, but don't really dictate in the same way zoning does.

The zoning map has the D-1 (Central Business District) Zone spanning as far east as around 250 East in some spots. This is the 'tower building' zone. The Worthington/Convexity Tower is located in this zone.

Salt Lake's problem is that it has a very small Central Business District Zone compared to a lot of other cities, and is surrounded on the east and north by low density residential. The other Downtown Districts (D-2, D-3, D-4) all have really low height allowances and really shouldn't be considered downtown zones. I think they should all be eliminated and replaced with just D-1, since many other zones like CC, TSA, CG, GMU, etc are all really good buffer zones that allow the 5 over 2 construction projects that are good transitions from residential to downtown. Currently, all the other downtown zones do is further restrict quality development and put unneeded height restrictions in areas that really do not need any.

So if you really want downtown to start building taller buildings outside of the existing core, the removal of D-2, D-3, and D-4 and replacing them with D-1 would be the best way to do that. However, the city just redid their downtown zoning code and are very unlikely to pursue such changes any time soon. So we are stuck with more 7 and 8 floor buildings in areas that cry for towers (in my humble opinion).

[Blah_Amazing]

As for Comrade's doom and gloom predictions. Comrade has been saying these kind of things ever since I've been lurking here nearly a decade ago and clearly leans to the pessimistic side. Yet, in that same time I believe the City has gotten a whole lot better and I think its best days are still coming.

To be honest, I think you are all getting worked up over something that is likely 10, 20, 30 years out.

If we want big sports to choose Salt Lake, rather than going around placing hypothetical blame on the State Legislature or some other bogyman, we should be focusing on making Salt Lake an unbeatable option. You should be reaching out to legislators and telling them how Salt Lake is the best option.

Lets focus on making Salt Lake City the best place to be regardless of where a hypothetical stadium may or may not be built some day in the long future. Gloom and doom thinking typically becomes self fulfilling.

[bob rulz]

Originally Posted by Blah_Amazing

What actually matters for development is the Zoning Map, since they are the actual guiding policies dictating things like height, setbacks, parking, etc. Neighborhoods are mostly irrelevant when it comes to actual development projects, since there is a lot of zoning spillover from one neighborhood to the other. The main use of neighborhoods was for master plans that can provide overarching goals and development frameworks, but don't really dictate in the same way zoning does.

The zoning map has the D-1 (Central Business District) Zone spanning as far east as around 250 East in some spots. This is the 'tower building' zone. The Worthington/Convexity Tower is located in this zone.

Salt Lake's problem is that it has a very small Central Business District Zone compared to a lot of other cities, and is surrounded on the east and north by low density residential. The other Downtown Districts (D-2, D-3, D-4) all have really low height allowances and really shouldn't be considered downtown zones. I think they should all be eliminated and replaced with just D-1, since many other zones like CC, TSA, CG, GMU, etc are all really good buffer zones that allow the 5 over 2 construction projects that are good transitions from residential to downtown. Currently, all the other downtown zones do is further restrict quality development and put unneeded height restrictions in areas that really do not need any.

So if you really want downtown to start building taller buildings outside of the existing core, the removal of D-2, D-3, and D-4 and replacing them with D-1 would be the best way to do that. However, the city just redid their downtown zoning code and are very unlikely to pursue such changes any time soon. So we are stuck with more 7 and 8 floor buildings in areas that cry for towers (in my humble opinion).

The redo of the zoning codes increased the height limits in all of those zones.

D-3 max went from 90' to 180'
D-4 max from 120' to 375'
GMU max from 90' to 180'
Granary District max from 60' to 180'
The rest of the CG zone was increased from 60' to 75'

And even in the D-1 zone they removed the arbitrary mid-block height restriction.

The only downtown zone that was untouched in height was D-2 (120' maximum).

You could argue that it's not enough, or whether there's a need for 4 different downtown zones, but it does allow for more than 7-8 story buildings in a much wider area of the city.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Blah_Amazing

As for Comrade's doom and gloom predictions. Comrade has been saying these kind of things ever since I've been lurking here nearly a decade ago and clearly leans to the pessimistic side. Yet, in that same time I believe the City has gotten a whole lot better and I think its best days are still coming.

To be honest, I think you are all getting worked up over something that is likely 10, 20, 30 years out.

If we want big sports to choose Salt Lake, rather than going around placing hypothetical blame on the State Legislature or some other bogyman, we should be focusing on making Salt Lake an unbeatable option. You should be reaching out to legislators and telling them how Salt Lake is the best option.

Lets focus on making Salt Lake City the best place to be regardless of where a hypothetical stadium may or may not be built some day in the long future. Gloom and doom thinking typically becomes self fulfilling.

lol the beauty is that I've been way more right than wrong when it comes to Salt Lake and I've called out areas that were problematic and needed to be addressed, but were largely ignored, that proved prophetic. In fact, I have a thread made back in what, 2007, so certainly before that ten year mark, that addressed some major concerns I had with the Ball Park Neighborhood.

One could reason a big factor in the Bees relocating out of the neighborhood, and the area losing what it's literally named after, is due to the state of that neighborhood.

Yes, there's grand hopes of a MLB team - but that's no guarantee. What is guaranteed is that in a couple years, the Bees will be playing out in South Jordan.

As for your '10, 20 or 30 years out...' doubt it.

If Salt Lake gets a NHL team, specifically if it's the Coyotes in the next couple years, that change will happen within that ten-year window easily. Ryan Smith is already on the record saying the Delta Center is not the best equipped to handle a hockey team and I doubt they'd go play in the Maverik Center, and their 14,000 seats, for the next 20 years. If Smith gets a NHL team, he's building a new arena ASAP.

[rockies]

Originally Posted by Blah_Amazing

If we want big sports to choose Salt Lake, rather than going around placing hypothetical blame on the State Legislature or some other bogyman, we should be focusing on making Salt Lake an unbeatable option. You should be reaching out to legislators and telling them how Salt Lake is the best option.

Lets focus on making Salt Lake City the best place to be regardless of where a hypothetical stadium may or may not be built some day in the long future. Gloom and doom thinking typically becomes self fulfilling.

I agree with many of both arguments pessimistic and optimistic - but this is probably closest to my general opinion on SLC vs the state and not necessarily the stadium issue. There are too many instances of SLC being snubbed by the state to ignore it entirely. I also agree with the sentiment that the state should be supporting the largest city regardless (like in some states). However, I think there are also way too many instances of SLC self sabotaging and perpetuating local nimbyism/car brain (in direct conflict w/ its stated goals). It is certainly better than surrounding cities and people deserve credit for that - but there is local opposition and the city is not being as proactive as it could in improving the urban environment.

If/when the city uses the full extent of power it already has to ambitiously pursue walkability, attracting multifamily investment, etc. then the instances where the state wrongs the city become far more unjustifiable (and at least glaring). The city has shown it is capable of making the right changes but has not exercised enough confidence and certainty in doing so imo

[Comrade]

I don't disagree that Salt Lake has sabotaged itself in the past. It's one major thing I'll credit Becker for - he worked the process so that Salt Lake didn't lose out on the Broadway theater when it looked all but certain to go to Sandy (and a lot of that was just Sandy dropping the ball with their own NIMBYs sabotaging the development the theater was expected to go).

It's one big reason I hope Mayor Mendenhall is up for this fight because, fair or not, it's going to be potentially her legacy if the Jazz dip after the Bees have already dipped, potentially leaving zero professional sports teams in Salt Lake.

My concern is that the legislature controls a lot of the funding for these deals. They pulled a stunt in 2006, eliminating RDA funding for sports-specific developments, which all but killed the Real Salt Lake stadium downtown - only to reverse course a few years later when they failed to raise the funds needed to build out in Sandy.

I could absolutely see the state cutting Ryan Smith a sweetheart deal to build the new NBA/NHL arena out in Draper, using some form of funding, that makes it impossible for Salt Lake to compete.

The biggest problem is that the state does not see downtown as the entertainment and commercial center of the Wasatch Front. I have no faith Governor Cox would advocate for the arena to be built downtown and unless Smith is pretty set on building it there, which it doesn't sound like he is, who's actually going to champion the cause at a level that directly competes with the state.

We saw with RSL that the state vs city isn't a match. Hell, we saw with the inland port fiasco that state vs city isn't a match. If the state wants it - the state will get it.

But far too often, the city loses out to the suburbs.

The city initially had planned a hockey arena to be built south of the Delta Center and West Valley City, backed by the state, announced their plans first, undercutting Salt Lake.

RSL I went into.

The aquarium was originally planned for downtown - but the Republican-controlled County Council ended that by refusing to put in the ballot.

We know we're losing the Bees to South Jordan.

Downtown is doing good - but I do think losing the major sports arena to Draper or wherever, will be a devastating loss.

[Blah_Amazing]

Originally Posted by Comrade

lol the beauty is that I've been way more right than wrong when it comes to Salt Lake and I've called out areas that were problematic and needed to be addressed, but were largely ignored, that proved prophetic. In fact, I have a thread made back in what, 2007, so certainly before that ten year mark, that addressed some major concerns I had with the Ball Park Neighborhood.

One could reason a big factor in the Bees relocating out of the neighborhood, and the area losing what it's literally named after, is due to the state of that neighborhood.

Yes, there's grand hopes of a MLB team - but that's no guarantee. What is guaranteed is that in a couple years, the Bees will be playing out in South Jordan.

As for your '10, 20 or 30 years out...' doubt it.

If Salt Lake gets a NHL team, specifically if it's the Coyotes in the next couple years, that change will happen within that ten-year window easily. Ryan Smith is already on the record saying the Delta Center is not the best equipped to handle a hockey team and I doubt they'd go play in the Maverik Center, and their 14,000 seats, for the next 20 years. If Smith gets a NHL team, he's building a new arena ASAP.

Again, its a ton of 'ifs' and 'buts'. Non of it is remotely sure and ya'll are constantly focusing on these things way too much.

Personally, I would rather the main focus be on what we can do, such as improvements in streetscapes and deregulating and simplifying zoning than spending the next ten years with our fingers crossed hoping some billionaire succeeds in a bid against another billionaire. The mayor and her team should start to lobby harder for changes to the State owned roads that UDOT controls like State Street more than just about anything else, since that more than anything dictate the overall 'feel' of large portions of the city.

It seems more like people on here want SLC to be what it isn't. Every few weeks its, 'why isn't Salt Lake like Denver or Portland or New York, or Toronto'....maybe because Salt Lake isn't those places? Can we learn lessons from them? Yes! But people come on here questioning why we don't have a bunch of billion dollar skyscrapers built for the billionaire class like New York. And if we don't have that kind of architecture and built environment then we have 'failed.'

Salt Lake is a minor regional capital in one of the most geographically isolated markets in North America. To get here from a major US city you have to either cross hundreds of miles deserts or vast plains and mountains. We are not and never will be a mega city or major metro or anything like that. We will likely always be smaller than Denver. We will never be a place where a billionaire will drop $100 million for an apartment. AND THAT IS OK!

Rather than spending countless hours worrying about a professional team that may very well never happen, we should be focusing on and worrying about how we can make West Temple feel like an actual nice place to be.

If all of you are right and there is some big conspiracy between a billionaire and the State against the city, than all your worrying won't make much difference anyway.

I do understand your concerns about the hypothetical loss of a potential entertainment district, but if Salt Lake isn't doing what it can to make it an attractive place to walk around and enjoy for visitors and residents, how can it remotely compete against a state or a suburban community making a bunch of promises about building a stadium community (even though they will likely never follow through). The best Salt Lake can do is make it as attractive a place to live and 'be' as it possibly can. If this great conspiracy wins out - hey! We still have a nicer and more walkable/enjoyable place to enjoy. At the end of the day, entertainment options will go to where the people are, even if it takes longer for those in the State government or millionaires and billionaires in their suburban mansions to understand that.

[Blah_Amazing]

As for the Bees, we all know why they are moving and it isn't some grand conspiracy against Salt Lake.

It's that the Millers want a stadium to be located in the 'downtown' phases of Daybreak since they own Daybreak. It's as simple as that.

I want to be clear. I have nothing against a stadium or a professional team and I think Salt Lake should create all the needed plans and contingencies should the potential arise. If it does Salt Lake should fight like hell for any one of them. It should never give ground to the suburbs without giving everything it's got.

I just think the doom and gloom thinking and conspiracies doesn't result in good policy that could actually create the conditions that attract said stadium projects. I think, while we should have plans in place, the main focus of the city should be to make it as wonderful a place to live as it can in the ways it already can. I think that is better than basing the success of the city on the whims of a few selection committees in some hypothetical future.

I hope we get these stadium projects someday, but I want Salt Lake to be great regardless of them. Is that too much to ask? Maybe? Idk. I respect you all, I just see things different I guess.

[Comrade]

First, I've never claimed Salt Lake would be doomed. it wouldn't. But it's just cope at this point to suggest losing the Jazz wouldn't have a pretty devastating impact on downtown. Would it sink things entirely? No - but you also seem to be debating different points here. This isn't just about the NHL or NFL IF Salt Lake lands a NHL team, which Ryan Smith has shown extreme interest in (and feels more doable at this point than the MLB coming to the area, especially with the Coyotes looking to relocate), he will build a new arena for 'em. And that new arena, he has confirmed in interviews, will be a multipurpose arena - meaning, he's taking the Jazz too.

Now I'd agree if we were just talking the NHL. But we're not. We're literally talking the future of the Delta Center here. My concern isn't SLC losing a NHL team to Draper. My concern is losing both the NHL and Jazz to Draper.

And Ryan Smith isn't just dipping his toes here - he's actively working to get a NHL team to Salt Lake. You're right, it absolutely might not pan out, or we're 20+ years away from actually getting one. But this isn't doesn't feel like a pipedream. Smith has made too much noise, had too many conversations, for people to just dismiss this as some hope of his.

It feels like a real possibility.

https://thehockeynews.com/news/nhl-e...et-in-the-game

If the Coyotes relocate to Salt Lake, which is possible, they ain't doing so without a plan for a new arena. Not after what the NHL has gone through in the Phoenix area.

But even then, this shows that Smith is open to relocating the Jazz out of downtown. He's on the record saying he does not see the Jazz and a NHL team playing in separate buildings. And we also know he's not 100% invested in keeping that building downtown.

The Delta Center is 32 years old. It is currently the third oldest arena in the NBA. And while it's been renovated, the renovations still don't put it at the level of most new arenas. Minnesota, whose arena is a year older than the Delta Center, is looking to build a new arena for the Timberwolves. If/when that happens, the Delta Center will become the second oldest arena in the NBA - next to Madison Square Garden. But no one is mistaking the Delta Center for the Garden, which saw a massive renovation ($1.9 billion, which essentially renovated it into a new arena, compared to $125 million for the Delta Center renovations few years ago).

I'll be honest, I don't see the Jazz playing in the Delta Center ten years from now. They'll either have moved into a new arena with the NHL team or a new arena of their own. But the Delta Center is old. It's small. Has limited luxury boxes and more importantly, it's not a multi-purpose arena like most every modern arena being built today. It's essentially built for basketball. Even if Smith can't get the NHL here, he's going to have his eye on the future and if he can get a multi-purpose arena built, even without a team, it at least puts him position of being season-ready whenever that day comes.

But downtown losing the Delta Center isn't just about professional sports. The Delta Center is still Salt Lake's premier events center - with some of the biggest shows in the region.

All that will be lost. You're looking at reducing 18,000 fans a couple nights a week during the Jazz season and 18,000 fans on concert and event nights without the Delta Center. I see that as absolutely devastating.

As I mentioned, in this scenario, Salt Lake would be the only major urban center out west without a top-level entertainment venue in their downtown core.

Los Angeles has whatever the Staples Center is named now.
Las Vegas has a ton of options on the Strip.
Phoenix has their baseball stadium and the arena that's home to the Suns.
Denver has Pepsi Center or whatever it's called these days (plus Mile High)
Portland has the Rose Garden (or whatever - I am not up to date on my names lol)
Seattle has the new Key Arena, plus Safeco Field (omg I don't even think it's called that anymore) and CenturyLink or whatever that's home to the Seahawks.

So, I do think it's a serious threat and we need to take it as a serious threat or we're going to wake up to breaking news from the Tribune that Smith has plans to build a multipurpose arena in Draper and by that point, it'll be too late.

Because it won't be the Delta Center booking those big shows when a new arena is built. The Delta Center will be relegated to the dustbin of history.

[Paniolo Man]

They are putting up fencing around Royal Wood

[Dallas Snob]

How did me asking if SLC had a "Midtown" end up back on sport team speculation again? It seems regardless of the post, it somehow triggers this phenomena! This should seriously be an area of scholarly study and degree worthy at the UofU!!!

My response is to tongue in cheek so please, no pile on. But SURELY you see it.

[Blah_Amazing]

Address: 1050 S Washington Street

The Bumper House Apartments' Design Review and Planned Development were approved by the Planning Commission last week and we got some updated renderings for the project. I still think it lacks enough street engagement but it is an improvement.

The Bumper House includes 287 units, 135 parking stalls, 7 floors, and is 73'-10" tall. No retail.

Link to the Staff Report

Old rendering:

[Blah_Amazing]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

The redo of the zoning codes increased the height limits in all of those zones.

D-3 max went from 90' to 180'
D-4 max from 120' to 375'
GMU max from 90' to 180'
Granary District max from 60' to 180'
The rest of the CG zone was increased from 60' to 75'

And even in the D-1 zone they removed the arbitrary mid-block height restriction.

The only downtown zone that was untouched in height was D-2 (120' maximum).

You could argue that it's not enough, or whether there's a need for 4 different downtown zones, but it does allow for more than 7-8 story buildings in a much wider area of the city.

Are these heights with Design Review or 'by right'?

Also, does anyone know why D-2 is singled out to have a lower height than the GMU? Why? I mean D-2 is State Street, Main Street and West Temple from 650 to around 900 S.

Again, Salt Lake's zoning proves to be overly complicated and over regulated. Just make all of the downtown zones the CBD and provide a little bit of buffer rezones if needed around the low density areas.

Otherwise, all you are going to get in the future is either underutilized land in the D-2, D-3, D-4 and I guess GMU zones with their arbitrarily set heights, oooorrr the city is going to be stuck with a lot of filings for rezones to D-1 or from one downtown zone to another and spending months or years in the process. Salt Lake would save itself and developers a whole lot of time, money, and resources that could be put to better use elsewhere by just admitting that a city the size of Salt Lake doesn't warrant this many downtown zones and these kind of nonsensical height restrictions.

I have great respect for the Planning Department, but they have a large tendency to overcomplicate and overregulate. While I appreciate that in certain circumstances, in this I think they are actually hurting rather than helping Downtown. All that said, I am glad of the height bumps. Yay!

[Boz]

Originally Posted by Dallas Snob

How did me asking if SLC had a "Midtown" end up back on sport team speculation again? It seems regardless of the post, it somehow triggers this phenomena! This should seriously be an area of scholarly study and degree worthy at the UofU!!!

My response is to tongue in cheek so please, no pile on. But SURELY you see it.

The big blocks of text littered with acronyms. I skip by them all.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by Comrade

IF Salt Lake lands a NHL team, which Ryan Smith has shown extreme interest in (and feels more doable at this point than the MLB coming to the area, especially with the Coyotes looking to relocate), he will build a new arena for 'em. And that new arena, he has confirmed in interviews, will be a multipurpose arena - meaning, he's taking the Jazz too.

If the Coyotes relocate to Salt Lake, which is possible, they ain't doing so without a plan for a new arena. Not after what the NHL has gone through in the Phoenix area.

What part of the most recent coyotes arena news, from 6/28, leads you to believe the Coyotes are looking or likely to relocate out of Phoenix? It sounds to me like they've doubled down on the efforts and have a lot of options being explored.

You also bring up a good point on the arena plan for SLC, if Ryan Smith is that committed to bringing the NHL to SLC he should devise an arena plan including a location and the plan now.

https://arizonasports.com/story/3526...rena-district/

- "We're putting several options into play. We have over a dozen sites that we have had conversations with. We have half a dozen of those that we think are going to go to that next step," Coyotes CEO Xavier Gutierrez said Wednesday.

- “We’re still very much focused on a privately funded sports and entertainment district. We’re still committed to finding a location in the Valley, specifically in the East Valley. … We believe we are going to put multiple sites into play and shortly after the first of the year, we’ll have more to say publicly about what the plan looks like and what the location looks like.”

- "We changed tactics and we’re looking at sites that would all be in a situation not to be subject to a public vote"

[Orlando]

I think it is weird that the downtown boundary is the centerline of State Street. It should at least include the eastern portion of State Street or to the block or two to the east of State Street. Also, I think the downtown boundary on the west side should be somewhere between West Temple & 300 West, and then a new City neighborhood for the Depot/ Gateway District area.

Originally Posted by Comrade

Salt Lake does not have a midtown.

Here is the official neighborhood boundaries:



Each neighborhood has sub-neighborhoods as well, which are limited specific areas - like how Marmalade Hill is a sub-neighborhood in the Capitol Hill neighborhood.

Downtown is bordered by South Temple to the north, State Street to the east, 700 South to the south and I-15 to the west.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by locolife

What part of the most recent coyotes arena news, from 6/28, leads you to believe the Coyotes are looking or likely to relocate out of Phoenix? It sounds to me like they've doubled down on the efforts and have a lot of options being explored.

You also bring up a good point on the arena plan for SLC, if Ryan Smith is that committed to bringing the NHL to SLC he should devise an arena plan including a location and the plan now.

https://arizonasports.com/story/3526...rena-district/

- "We're putting several options into play. We have over a dozen sites that we have had conversations with. We have half a dozen of those that we think are going to go to that next step," Coyotes CEO Xavier Gutierrez said Wednesday.

- “We’re still very much focused on a privately funded sports and entertainment district. We’re still committed to finding a location in the Valley, specifically in the East Valley. … We believe we are going to put multiple sites into play and shortly after the first of the year, we’ll have more to say publicly about what the plan looks like and what the location looks like.”

- "We changed tactics and we’re looking at sites that would all be in a situation not to be subject to a public vote"

Well I never said the Coyotes were likely to move or that if they did, SLC would likely be their destination.

But anyone who's paying attention to the situation knows it's extremely unsettled. Until it is settled, there's going to be relocation rumors - whether people like it or not. And it's not settled at the moment.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Orlando

I think it is weird that the downtown boundary is the centerline of State Street. It should at least include the eastern portion of State Street or to the block or two to the east of State Street. Also, I think the downtown boundary on the west side should be somewhere between West Temple & 300 West, and then a new City neighborhood for the Depot/ Gateway District area.

There are sub-neighborhoods within each community council, so, I am okay with that.

There is a Depot District within the downtown community and I feel it's appropriate as that area still feels like downtown (home to the Delta Center, which I think we'd all agree is downtown lol).

[bob rulz]

Originally Posted by Blah_Amazing

Are these heights with Design Review or 'by right'?

Also, does anyone know why D-2 is singled out to have a lower height than the GMU? Why? I mean D-2 is State Street, Main Street and West Temple from 650 to around 900 S.

Again, Salt Lake's zoning proves to be overly complicated and over regulated. Just make all of the downtown zones the CBD and provide a little bit of buffer rezones if needed around the low density areas.

Otherwise, all you are going to get in the future is either underutilized land in the D-2, D-3, D-4 and I guess GMU zones with their arbitrarily set heights, oooorrr the city is going to be stuck with a lot of filings for rezones to D-1 or from one downtown zone to another and spending months or years in the process. Salt Lake would save itself and developers a whole lot of time, money, and resources that could be put to better use elsewhere by just admitting that a city the size of Salt Lake doesn't warrant this many downtown zones and these kind of nonsensical height restrictions.

I have great respect for the Planning Department, but they have a large tendency to overcomplicate and overregulate. While I appreciate that in certain circumstances, in this I think they are actually hurting rather than helping Downtown. All that said, I am glad of the height bumps. Yay!

These are the maximums with design review. I didn't look at by right, because additional height through design review is almost never denied anyway, and if a developer wants the extra height, they'll pursue it and they'll get it. I do think the by right heights were increased too, though (except in D-1). I don't disagree that our downtown zoning is needlessly complicated. If it were up to me, I would simplify it greatly. But it's still a huge improvement over what existed before and there will certainly be developers taking advantage of this at some point in the near future.