Winnipeg | True North Square | U/C

[Spocket]

So what about that Sutton Place Hotel ? Is that a for sure go ahead ?

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Also, nice hat Jim! haha


http://www.winnipegsun.com/2016/06/03/true-north-square-could-be-expanded-ludlow

Jim Ludlow channeling Heisenberg only he forgot the goatee.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by Spocket

So what about that Sutton Place Hotel ? Is that a for sure go ahead ?

At the announcement it seemed like they just came into the fold so it was really preliminary.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by buzzg

I'd actually just prefer if they kept the plans as is and built another building on one of the surface lots nearby... say either lot at Donald and St. Mary. And you can connect via skywalk to cityplace so those tenants still feel connected to all the action.

I can get behind your vision/suggestion for how this could proceed. But I think we both realize that if there are any changes to the project, now is the time to do it with cost being the determining factor. Excavation is nearing completion, and the foundation moving forward in short order. A new project, even though making sense in filling another empty lot, is an enormous undertaking. Maybe, in the not to distant future?

[CoryB]

If demand is high for retail and office space perhaps they could do a change in the design level of the proposed condo tower changing it to office space instead. The whole condo element always felt questionable with the other projects that are in the planning stages including Sutton Place.

The other part of this story, if demand was so strong wouldn't they put out a solid announcement instead of "leaking" this rumor to basically fish the market for more interest?

[oftheMoon]

Originally Posted by CoryB

If demand is high for retail and office space perhaps they could do a change in the design level of the proposed condo tower changing it to office space instead. The whole condo element always felt questionable with the other projects that are in the planning stages including Sutton Place.

The other part of this story, if demand was so strong wouldn't they put out a solid announcement instead of "leaking" this rumor to basically fish the market for more interest?

Tower 2 could end up being 100% office space and the Sutton condo could be built taller maybe?

[esquire]

^ TNSE could one-up both Fortress and Artis and build a new new new tallest that way... dream on, right?

I'd settle for keeping the existing towers as planned and adding one more new tower (presumably office space) right at the NE corner of Carlton and St. Mary.

[oftheMoon]

^^ taller buildings or 5 instead of 4 - this entire project is thrilling regardless! Can't wait for updated plans and then seeing these buildings rising out of the ground over the next few years. It's going to be a site to see!

[Cyro]

It is an exciting project and situation to have, we're not used to this here. Height is nice, from a skyline perspective but one more tower in the development is much sweeter..

[CoryB]

^^ The challenge is I do not see how True North Square is really generated ***NEW*** demand for office space but rather interest in existing office space relocating there. If that is what is happening we are going to have one heck of a hangover with empty office space all over downtown and zero demand.

[Cyro]

^ they are not generating much needed new office space, Class A. Not older than 20-30 years in age is now in demand and this is what they are banking on, (change of address) They've mentioned quite openly that tenants will vacate older office space in current locations to be part of the the new development. Hopefully, as they put it, the older space will be filled, now or in the near future.

[bomberjet]

They did say there has been interest from out of Province companies too.

[esquire]

^ The funny thing is that I've been in some of the offices in the major office towers and a good number of them look stuck in the early 90s décor-wise. If an improved image is what they're after, why don't they renovate their existing spaces instead of switching buildings?

Anyway, I think CoryB's prediction may well come true... as exciting as it is to see new towers rise, it's not as exciting if the end result is just a game of musical chairs with a bunch of half-empty buildings at the end of it all.

[CoryB]

^^ The other challenge is will you see established Class A buildings then having fire sales of lease rates to try and capture a bigger slice of what is left in the market? For decades the block on Portage Ave with Manitoba Start and the Paris build had those buildings sitting vacant. I doubt 201 Portage, or the bigger buildings will get crunched but the smaller builds may find the tenants won't stay there at any economical price. Three city blocks were torn down in the past due in part to occupancy issues in downtown. It seems we could be heading back to dark days like that.

I really hope I am wrong on this one.

[esquire]

^ I think you're dead right. It's not the big P&M towers that will pay the price for TNS, it'll be the smaller commercial blocks whose tenants will be able to afford the bigger towers that were previously off limits to them.

Think of buildings like these ones, which are in many ways the unheralded backbone of downtown streets... when you can get cheap rent at 360 Main no one is going to bother improving them. They will just slowly go to seed.


source: winnipegofficespace.com

I get as excited about new towers as anyone, but I have to admit that when I stop and think about it, it seems to me that TNS in its original iteration is more than big enough for downtown Winnipeg's purposes. I realize that Longboat may want more space because it knows it can lease it profitably, but that's not quite the same as what's best for downtown Winnipeg generally.

[CoryB]

^^ Exactly. True North has **never** been about what is best for downtown but rather what is best for earning them income. The interesting side effect is the Chipman family owns one of those smaller office blocks at St Marys and Gary.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by CoryB

^^ Exactly. True North has **never** been about what is best for downtown but rather what is best for earning them income. The interesting side effect is the Chipman family owns one of those smaller office blocks at St Marys and Gary.

Hmm, It's interesting how the discussion in downtown development is slowly changing? Un-charted territory here, morals of for profit companies and entities being questioned now. The Richardson's having a 50% stake in this development, private for-profit companies are becoming involved and they should be chastised for the effort?


Surprise, Center Point was developed by them to lose money? That was a pretty bold leap on their part to launch and complete that particular development.( yes, Shed/TIFF financing involved). Should they be accountable for what other private investors are doing in the core...

[TimeFadesAway]

Originally Posted by Cyro

Hmm, It's interesting how the discussion in downtown development is slowly changing? Un-charted territory here, morals of for profit companies and entities being questioned now. The Richardson's having a 50% stake in this development, private for-profit companies are becoming involved and they should be chastised for the effort?


Surprise, Center Point was developed by them to lose money? That was a pretty bold leap on their part to launch and complete that particular development.( yes, Shed/TIFF financing involved). Should they be accountable for what other private investors are doing in the core...

I don't think that Cory is chastising TN per se. I think that his ire is more focused on those who paint TN as this great benevolent entity that is here to serve all of us.

There's nothing wrong with TN trying to make a profit and offering a better product than someone else. What is wrong (incorrect, not morally wrong) is to pretend that TN is interested in downtown as anything other than a side effect of them making a profit. I don't think TN is trying to pretend to be anything they aren't, but others sure are.

[esquire]

^ Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful that Longboat/TNSE has chosen to pursue profits in downtown Winnipeg, which so many other companies have left for dead. All I'm saying is that there could potentially be a downside to a project that is too large for the market... it's not as simple as taller/bigger automatically equalling better.

That said, I don't think TNS is inappropriately large. Although if it got much bigger it could reach that point.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful that Longboat/TNSE has chosen to pursue profits in downtown Winnipeg, which so many other companies have left for dead. All I'm saying is that there could potentially be a downside to a project that is too large for the market... it's not as simple as taller/bigger automatically equalling better.

That said, I don't think TNS is inappropriately large. Although if it got much bigger it could reach that point.

No disagreement on this point.

But, If the Richardson's, Long Boat or Artis want to step up their will be some fallout to others in the area. But remember the Richardson's, Philanthropists to Winnipeg's benefit with thier untold wealth, made sure that the P&M concourse on thier side of the street was updated with a vast amount of money to keep shoppers/patrons underground...How this will un-fold in the next year remains to be seen..