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  #141  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 9:12 PM
DaveinWimberley DaveinWimberley is offline
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Originally Posted by Armybrat View Post
The Governor & Legislature have not been sitting on their hands. The expansion & renovation of state hospital facilities has been underway for quite some time. Below shows the first step:

https://hhs.texas.gov/about-hhs/proc...ospital-system
That's just pissing in the wind. They're talking about adding 750 beds in the whole State! When I worked at CBV unit (Central Brazos Valley Unit) back in the 60s, ASH had 3,000 patients. Now they have 184. Similar cuts were made to the other State Hospitals in Texas. And Texas had one third the population then as it has now.
We probably need to add more like 30,000 beds to get to parity with what we had in the 60s.
Come to think about it, It seems as if there are somewhere near 30,000 hard core homeless people in Texas. What a coincidence!
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  #142  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 10:22 PM
resansom resansom is offline
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...We probably need to add more like 30,000 beds to get to parity with what we had in the 60s.
Come to think about it, It seems as if there are somewhere near 30,000 hard core homeless people in Texas. What a coincidence!
Studies have shown that homelessness is not *primarily* a mental health nor a substance abuse problem. Rather, there are myriad causes for the origins of homelessness and the proliferation of the problem, since the early 1980s. If you have the time, I recommend reading Creating a Science of Homelessness During the Reagan Era. The conclusion is here:

The first generation of homelessness research can be regarded as simultaneously groundbreaking and crippled by its political and sociohistorical context. Baxter and Hopper's pioneering ethnography brought homelessness into the national consciousness, and the NIMH- and NIAAA- funded studies established a foundation for an empirically based approach to investigating the scope and dimensions of the problem. In particular, these early studies can be credited both with disproving the widely held assumption that homeless populations consist solely of deinstitutionalized or untreated mental patients, and with identifying a distinct subpopulation of chronically homeless individuals who were disabled by combinations of mental illness, substance abuse, and physical illness. Subsequent research that built on this foundation has fostered an empirically grounded approach to addressing homelessness among people with serious mental and physical disorders. The lack of early federal support to address the structural causes of homelessness, however, unwittingly led to a disproportionate policy focus on the most physically and mentally disabled minority of the homeless population. The blame for this fragmented approach to homelessness belongs not primarily on the NIMH or the NIAAA but on the larger political context in which they operated. The parameters of acceptable research were highly circumscribed by Reagan administration officials, who clung to a historically rooted ideological belief that homelessness resulted mainly from individual character flaws. The administration's 1981 attack on the federal government's social research programs, its aggressive denial of federal responsibility for responding to homelessness, and its move to cut HUD funds by 70% between 1980 and 1987 together forestalled the development of a coordinated homelessness research program that examined housing, employment, and social services along with mental and behavioral health aspects.137(pE1) The unwavering belief of many mental health experts that deinstitutionalization was the sole cause of homelessness, along with the long legacy of sociological research that focused on the individual and cultural pathology of the poor rather than on the economic and political causes of poverty, formed the ideological bedrock for this individualization of a structural problem. Moreover, the impact of this distortion continues to be felt today, as the homeless crisis of the 1980s lingers into the second decade of the 21st century.
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  #143  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 10:51 PM
Armybrat Armybrat is offline
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Originally Posted by DaveinWimberley View Post
That's just pissing in the wind. They're talking about adding 750 beds in the whole State! When I worked at CBV unit (Central Brazos Valley Unit) back in the 60s, ASH had 3,000 patients. Now they have 184. Similar cuts were made to the other State Hospitals in Texas. And Texas had one third the population then as it has now.
We probably need to add more like 30,000 beds to get to parity with what we had in the 60s.
Come to think about it, It seems as if there are somewhere near 30,000 hard core homeless people in Texas. What a coincidence!
It said it is just the first step.
You can thank the psychiatrist associations for the emptying of the state hospitals nationwide starting in California 60 years ago. They persuaded the politicians they could treat the mentally ill with their new “wonder drugs” without having to institutionalize them.
Naturally the legislatures & governors were happy to oblige them and channel the windfall money to other projects & agencies.
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  #144  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 11:13 PM
wwmiv wwmiv is offline
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Originally Posted by resansom View Post
Studies have shown that homelessness is not *primarily* a mental health nor a substance abuse problem. Rather, there are myriad causes for the origins of homelessness and the proliferation of the problem, since the early 1980s. If you have the time, I recommend reading Creating a Science of Homelessness During the Reagan Era. The conclusion is here:

The first generation of homelessness research can be regarded as simultaneously groundbreaking and crippled by its political and sociohistorical context. Baxter and Hopper's pioneering ethnography brought homelessness into the national consciousness, and the NIMH- and NIAAA- funded studies established a foundation for an empirically based approach to investigating the scope and dimensions of the problem. In particular, these early studies can be credited both with disproving the widely held assumption that homeless populations consist solely of deinstitutionalized or untreated mental patients, and with identifying a distinct subpopulation of chronically homeless individuals who were disabled by combinations of mental illness, substance abuse, and physical illness. Subsequent research that built on this foundation has fostered an empirically grounded approach to addressing homelessness among people with serious mental and physical disorders. The lack of early federal support to address the structural causes of homelessness, however, unwittingly led to a disproportionate policy focus on the most physically and mentally disabled minority of the homeless population. The blame for this fragmented approach to homelessness belongs not primarily on the NIMH or the NIAAA but on the larger political context in which they operated. The parameters of acceptable research were highly circumscribed by Reagan administration officials, who clung to a historically rooted ideological belief that homelessness resulted mainly from individual character flaws. The administration's 1981 attack on the federal government's social research programs, its aggressive denial of federal responsibility for responding to homelessness, and its move to cut HUD funds by 70% between 1980 and 1987 together forestalled the development of a coordinated homelessness research program that examined housing, employment, and social services along with mental and behavioral health aspects.137(pE1) The unwavering belief of many mental health experts that deinstitutionalization was the sole cause of homelessness, along with the long legacy of sociological research that focused on the individual and cultural pathology of the poor rather than on the economic and political causes of poverty, formed the ideological bedrock for this individualization of a structural problem. Moreover, the impact of this distortion continues to be felt today, as the homeless crisis of the 1980s lingers into the second decade of the 21st century.
Halfway through reading this report and I want to draw attention to the fact that the foundational research can’t even determine the direction of causality in most cases:

Quote:
Furthermore, all the studies used a cross-sectional survey design that made it impossible to determine the causal etiology of participants’ mental illness. “None of the studies had a design which allowed for reliably separating homeless mentally ill persons into those who were mentally ill prior to becoming homeless and those who became mentally ill following an episode of homelessness,” a 1986 NIMH conference report on the research noted.
Speaking for my own circumstance, my mental health issues did not begin until AFTER I began to experience housing instability and homelessness.
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  #145  
Old Posted May 27, 2021, 12:05 AM
Tyrone Shoes Tyrone Shoes is offline
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the mayor just threw the city manager under the bus.

Well to me this seems that the mayor just threw the city manager under the bus.

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  #146  
Old Posted May 27, 2021, 12:11 AM
austlar1 austlar1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Armybrat View Post
The Governor & Legislature have not been sitting on their hands. The expansion & renovation of state hospital facilities has been underway for quite some time. Below shows the first step:

https://hhs.texas.gov/about-hhs/proc...ospital-system
You are probably going to have to get the US Supreme Court to revisit the issue before the State Hospital system ever gets truly revitalized. The criteria for involuntary commitment, which dates from the late 1960s and the Earl Warren court, pretty much says that persons must be deemed a danger to self or others and those needing treatment need to be kept in the "least restrictive" environments possible. The advent of effective medications in the early 1960s gave rise to these court rulings. State hospitals started empyting out in the 1970s long before Ronald Reagan. The idea (deeply flawed and underfunded from the get go) was to provide community based mental health services and keep folks out of the state hospitals.
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  #147  
Old Posted May 27, 2021, 1:27 AM
Armybrat Armybrat is offline
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Originally Posted by austlar1 View Post
You are probably going to have to get the US Supreme Court to revisit the issue before the State Hospital system ever gets truly revitalized. The criteria for involuntary commitment, which dates from the late 1960s and the Earl Warren court, pretty much says that persons must be deemed a danger to self or others and those needing treatment need to be kept in the "least restrictive" environments possible. The advent of effective medications in the early 1960s gave rise to these court rulings. State hospitals started empyting out in the 1970s long before Ronald Reagan. The idea (deeply flawed and underfunded from the get go) was to provide community based mental health services and keep folks out of the state hospitals.
I agree, and with this “new” SCOTUS, no telling how they would look at it.
Btw - I’ve read that the emptying of the California MH facilities started taking place during Governor Reagan’s tenure at the behest of the state psychiatrists’ association.
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  #148  
Old Posted May 27, 2021, 4:57 AM
austlar1 austlar1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Armybrat View Post
I agree, and with this “new” SCOTUS, no telling how they would look at it.
Btw - I’ve read that the emptying of the California MH facilities started taking place during Governor Reagan’s tenure at the behest of the state psychiatrists’ association.
Well, Reagan became governor in 1966. That is around the time that the federal courts first ruled on "least restrictive environment" and also came up with the "danger to self or others" definition for involuntary commitment. Psychotropic drugs were proving effective in treating severe mental illness. There was a naive belief that community based services (community mental health centers, halfway houses, group homes, medication compliant patients, and efforts to return hospital patients to home environments, etc.) would somehow fill the void. California in the Reagan years, and with generous funding from the Feds (Community Mental Health acts of 1963 and 1969), actually set up a pretty comprehensive program. Funding shifted more to the states in the early 80s' (Reagan, this time as president, and with a Republican senate majority), and federal mental health revenue dried up or got turned into block grants to the states with no spending mandates. California passed Prop.1, and there was a drastic reduction in state revenues out there. Mental health programs were some of the first to hit the chopping block. Other states followed suit. There is not a big constituency for the mentally ill, and state legislators and governors felt little heat when cutting back both in-patient and community based services. By 2000, the chronic mentally ill in most of the US were on their own. They still are. The paltry services that do exist are just a band-aid. It is way past time for nation-wide reform and also a revision of the laws governing involuntary commitment.
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  #149  
Old Posted May 27, 2021, 3:38 PM
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LOL - Adler trying to blame someone other than himself. AGAIN! Isn't this the same guy who told us all to stay home during covid while he was out jetting around. Pretty much has zero credibility on this. Fix the streets or something, do something useful !! https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-po...n-coronavirus/

Austlar1 - good call on Reagan years. You have to suspect any study that comes out and blames a single politician for the woes of society, usually some agenda there, financed by who knows who.

Last edited by JAM; May 27, 2021 at 4:08 PM.
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  #150  
Old Posted May 27, 2021, 3:59 PM
Novacek Novacek is offline
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LOL - Adler trying to blame someone other than himself. AGAIN! Isn't this the same guy who told us all to stay home during covid while he was out jetting around.
Nope, he was the guy who went on vacation when cases were really low, then told people to stay home when cases were high.
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  #151  
Old Posted May 27, 2021, 4:21 PM
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The ATX The ATX is offline
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Nope, he was the guy who went on vacation when cases were really low, then told people to stay home when cases were high.
He told people to stay home in a video he made from his Airbnb condo in Mexico.
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  #152  
Old Posted May 27, 2021, 4:36 PM
AustinYIMBY AustinYIMBY is offline
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FWIW, Adler was on the Joe Rogan podcast a couple days ago and most of the discussion was about the homeless problem. Pretty interesting listen. A couple points that struck out were:
1. Adler does not really have any more power than any of the other council members. I think a lot of people dont understand this. City Manager has much more power than he does.
2. The homeless problem didn't start 2 years ago when council "lifted" the camping ban. It just brought many homeless people out of the woods and into the spotlight.
3. From the interactions volunteers and city staff have had with homeless folks in Austin, a vast majority became homeless when they were already in Austin. You will hear all the time, that homeless people have come from around the country to Austin because they can camp in public spaces. While there are some examples of this, it is not reflective of the majority of homeless people in Austin.
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  #153  
Old Posted May 27, 2021, 4:39 PM
Novacek Novacek is offline
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He told people to stay home in a video he made from his Airbnb condo in Mexico.
Yes, because cases increased after he left.


"The rate of people testing positive in Austin was less than 4% but started climbing after Adler was in Mexico. New cases rose dramatically as Thanksgiving neared."

https://www.statesman.com/story/news...ime/115087704/
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  #154  
Old Posted May 27, 2021, 6:00 PM
austlar1 austlar1 is offline
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Originally Posted by JAM View Post
LOL - Adler trying to blame someone other than himself. AGAIN! Isn't this the same guy who told us all to stay home during covid while he was out jetting around. Pretty much has zero credibility on this. Fix the streets or something, do something useful !! https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-po...n-coronavirus/

Austlar1 - good call on Reagan years. You have to suspect any study that comes out and blames a single politician for the woes of society, usually some agenda there, financed by who knows who.
Re: Adler and Cronk. Back in mid 2019, I had the opportunity to pose a question to Cronk about the newly public camp sites popping up around Austin. This took place at a meeting of gay seniors where Cronk was the guest speaker. Cronk seemed totally uninterested in even discussing the topic at that time, and I got the impression that he really did not grasp the significance of what was turning into a huge demoralizing problem for the city. I tried to press him for some for some details on how the city planned to deal with the issue and got nowhere. Other attendees at the meeting seemed annoyed by my questions, mirroring the confusion and lack of understanding of the problem that still exists for many big-hearted Austin residents.
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  #155  
Old Posted May 27, 2021, 8:15 PM
undergroundman undergroundman is offline
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Yes, because cases increased after he left.


"The rate of people testing positive in Austin was less than 4% but started climbing after Adler was in Mexico. New cases rose dramatically as Thanksgiving neared."

https://www.statesman.com/story/news...ime/115087704/
So you don't think his poor example consequently led to the spike in infections? People who look to him as a leader might assume that because he had so little concern for the virus, that it's ok to let your guard down and go out which led to the spike. For better or worse, he is a role model to some.
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  #156  
Old Posted May 27, 2021, 8:24 PM
undergroundman undergroundman is offline
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Originally Posted by AustinYIMBY View Post
FWIW, Adler was on the Joe Rogan podcast a couple days ago and most of the discussion was about the homeless problem. Pretty interesting listen. A couple points that struck out were:
1. Adler does not really have any more power than any of the other council members. I think a lot of people dont understand this. City Manager has much more power than he does.
Council has the power to fire the City Manager. That's a pretty powerful position. But that's beside the point. Leadership 101 teaches you to look before you leap. They should have coordinated with the city manager to have a solid plan in place before repealing the ordinance and hoping for the best.
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  #157  
Old Posted May 27, 2021, 9:02 PM
undergroundman undergroundman is offline
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Anybody remember the movie Batman Begins? It has eerie parallels to our current situation here in Austin.

Ra's al Ghul (played by Steve Adler and understudy Greg Casar), leader of the League of Shadows, unleases the criminally insane inmates from Gotham's insane asylum onto the streets to burn down and destroy Gotham. Batman (played by Brian Manley) attempts to thwart the League of Shadows' efforts and save Gotham.

Ra's al Ghul says to Batman, "As Gotham's favored son you will be ideally placed to strike at the heart of criminality... Gotham's time has come. Like Constantinople or Rome before it the city has become a breeding ground for suffering and injustice. It is beyond saving and must be allowed to die. This is the most important function of the League of Shadows. It is one we've performed for centuries.

The League of Shadows has been a check against human corruption for thousands of years. We sacked Rome. Loaded trade ships with plague rats. Burned London to the ground. Every time a civilization reaches the pinnacle of its decadence we return to restore the balance."

As movie-goers, we viewed Mr Ghul as a evil villainous mutherfkr.

While in real life, people are praising Alder for burning down our Gotham.
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  #158  
Old Posted May 27, 2021, 10:13 PM
Novacek Novacek is offline
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So you don't think his poor example consequently led to the spike in infections? People who look to him as a leader might assume that because he had so little concern for the virus, that it's ok to let your guard down and go out which led to the spike. For better or worse, he is a role model to some.
_if_ anyone was still listening to Adler (who hadn't made up their mind months before, since that was >6 months into the pandemic) they would have heard him say for months that <5% was the ~safe cutoff.


So no, since the number of people who weren't set in their ways that many months in was ~0, I guarantee you his example didn't lead to a spike of infections.

And especially since him being out of town _wasn't even made public_ until way after the spike, I absolutely completely guarantee you his example wasn't the cause.
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  #159  
Old Posted May 28, 2021, 3:53 AM
verybadgnome verybadgnome is offline
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Originally Posted by JAM View Post
LOL - Adler trying to blame someone other than himself. AGAIN! Isn't this the same guy who told us all to stay home during covid while he was out jetting around. Pretty much has zero credibility on this. Fix the streets or something, do something useful !! https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-po...n-coronavirus/

Austlar1 - good call on Reagan years. You have to suspect any study that comes out and blames a single politician for the woes of society, usually some agenda there, financed by who knows who.
Reagan's predecessor, Carter, also promoted deinstitutionalism:

Deinstitutionalization was based on the principle that severe mental illness should be treated in the least restrictive setting. As further defined by President Jimmy Carter's Commission on Mental Health, this ideology rested on "the objective of maintaining the greatest degree of freedom, self-determination, autonomy, dignity, and integrity of body, mind, and spirit for the individual while he or she participates in treatment or receives services." This is a laudable goal and for many, perhaps for the majority of those who are deinstitutionalized, it has been at least partially realized.


https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...erpt.html#ret8

I was always under the impression that the book/movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and especially the nurse Ratchet character destroyed the image of institutions in the public eye......Having said that I do think they have their place and could address a slice of the chronic homeless population.

Last edited by verybadgnome; May 28, 2021 at 4:05 AM.
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  #160  
Old Posted May 28, 2021, 3:56 PM
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Originally Posted by undergroundman View Post
Anybody remember the movie Batman Begins? It has eerie parallels to our current situation here in Austin.

Ra's al Ghul (played by Steve Adler and understudy Greg Casar), leader of the League of Shadows, unleases the criminally insane inmates from Gotham's insane asylum onto the streets to burn down and destroy Gotham. Batman (played by Brian Manley) attempts to thwart the League of Shadows' efforts and save Gotham.

Ra's al Ghul says to Batman, "As Gotham's favored son you will be ideally placed to strike at the heart of criminality... Gotham's time has come. Like Constantinople or Rome before it the city has become a breeding ground for suffering and injustice. It is beyond saving and must be allowed to die. This is the most important function of the League of Shadows. It is one we've performed for centuries.

The League of Shadows has been a check against human corruption for thousands of years. We sacked Rome. Loaded trade ships with plague rats. Burned London to the ground. Every time a civilization reaches the pinnacle of its decadence we return to restore the balance."

As movie-goers, we viewed Mr Ghul as a evil villainous mutherfkr.

While in real life, people are praising Alder for burning down our Gotham.
I like the analogy. Pretty certain there are some anarchists involved in this - they simply enjoy seeing society crumble. Austin is not immune from these types.
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