LRT Stage 3

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I believe the FLIRTs are only permitted on lines that have implemented PTC. I don’t think any main line railways have implemented PTC in Canada.

VIA has GPS train, although I don't know if they've activated the failsafe capabilities of that.

I suppose that will make the City of Ottawa the first railroad in Canada to implement PTC. I can picture the headlines now... "unproven* train control technology"

*in Canada, and therefore the winter

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

• Gatineau Connection? - Probably,
• Carling LRT? - more likely to actually be BRT Probably,
• Baseline-Heron-Walkley BRT? - Baseline-Heron will likely be Stage 2.5. I think the extension to Bayshore will come before a split to Walkley. Probably,
• Hunt Club BRT - Are you serious

The amount of folks that cross the river necessitates that a Gatineau connection be prioritized. Beyond that, depending on how much is funded, I'd argue that the East-West corridors need to be prioritized, Carling, Baseline-Heron-Walkley and Hunt Club in that order. And yes Hunt Club, I'm serious. It needs to be built so that traveling across the South is necessary to make the whole area inside the greenbelt travellable by transit. And necessary to feed Confederation Southwest and the Trillium Line.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The amount of folks that cross the river necessitates that a Gatineau connection be prioritized. Beyond that, depending on how much is funded, I'd argue that the East-West corridors need to be prioritized, Carling, Baseline-Heron-Walkley and Hunt Club in that order. And yes Hunt Club, I'm serious. It needs to be built so that traveling across the South is necessary to make the whole area inside the greenbelt travellable by transit. And necessary to feed Confederation Southwest and the Trillium Line.

Why do you think they will prioritize an unplanned extension of the Baseline BRT to Walkley over the planned extension to Bayshore?

The problem with Hunt Club as a transit corridor is that it skirts the edge of the green belt, so any opportunities for TOD are cut in half. That really limits its usefulness and is the primary reason why OC Transpo doesn’t have any continuous routes along it. I would prioritize routes that already have significant demand.

[Mikeed]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Why do you think they will prioritize an unplanned extension of the Baseline BRT to Walkley over the planned extension to Bayshore?

I just want to point out the Ultimate Vision of the 2031 Transportation Master Plan involves a transitway from Bayshore, though Baseline to Heron, and continuing on down Walkley to Blair station.

The "affordable" plan is only for Baseline Station to Heron Station.

The advantage of the Heron-Walkley section is it allows bus routes near the Heron-Walkley collector spine be terminated at major Otrain transfer sites as the bus system will continue to be optimized to feed transfers to the Otrain moving forward. A vast number of neighborhoods can be feed to Bayshore, Baseline, Hurdman and Blair by building out this collector spine. Fast and efficiently.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Why do you think they will prioritize an unplanned extension of the Baseline BRT to Walkley over the planned extension to Bayshore?

I don't think I said that.....

Originally Posted by roger1818

The problem with Hunt Club as a transit corridor is that it skirts the edge of the green belt, so any opportunities for TOD are cut in half. That really limits its usefulness and is the primary reason why OC Transpo doesn’t have any continuous routes along it. I would prioritize routes that already have significant demand.

It's also a route that's cheap and easy to build since Hunt Club is triple laned in both directions, the whole length from 417 to 417. And effectively splits the catchment between Hunt Club and Baseline-Heron-Walkley. Priority? Not over the whole Baseline-Heron-Walkley corridor or Carling or Gatineau connection. What these BRTs do is guarantee a 15 minute max bus ride from virtually any point in the Greenbelt to an LRT station.

[Mikeed]

A Hunt Club BRT would link the Nepean business park node which is a major employment area that is in a transit desert. Ross Video, Food Inspection Agency and Costco HQ and lots of other car centric employment could be linked with both the Trillium and Confederation Line not to mention other collector bus routes that use this spine to connect with the larger city-wide rapid transit network.

It's a good idea!

Not until we get these transitways done can we talk about doing massive expansion of the Otrain network.

A Hunt Club transitway could also be threaded through the heart of Bells Corners to Bayshore sharing a bit with the Baseline transitway. Or take Cedarview Rd straight to Bayshore.

But if we do a Hunt Club transitway we should also do a greenbelt ring road parkway.

As a car lover and a transit lover (all round infrastructure lover)
I love parkways!

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Mikeed

...lots of other car centric employment could be linked with both the Trillium and Confederation Line not to mention other collector bus routes that use this spine to connect with the larger city-wide rapid transit network....

This is exactly why I suggested it. And it's the trend in most cities to put bus lanes on major through avenues. Between Hunt Club and Baseline-Heron-Walkley, the increase in bus mobility across the entire southern half of the city inside the Greenbelt would be massive.

Let's be clear, I am not suggesting some massive investment. Curbside bus lanes. Nicer bus shelters and bus bays at every intersection. Better signage. Doesn't even have to be as great as say York Hwy 7 BRT, thought that level of investment would be great.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It needs to be built so that traveling across the South is necessary to make the whole area inside the greenbelt travellable by transit. And necessary to feed Confederation Southwest and the Trillium Line.

"The whole area inside the greenbelt" would still include large swaths of urban area dependent on buses running in mixed traffic with zero transit priority.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Mikeed

I just want to point out the Ultimate Vision of the 2031 Transportation Master Plan involves a transitway from Bayshore, though Baseline to Heron, and continuing on down Walkley to Blair station.

The "affordable" plan is only for Baseline Station to Heron Station.

But the affordable plan has transit priority measures west of Baseline Station but not east of Heron Station, indicating it’s a higher priority. Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but hasn’t there been an EA for the Bayshore-Badeline leg but%2

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I don't think the stage 3 will be $3 billion. That's more than Stage 1. Future stages are probably going to smaller $1-2 billion.

I just picked a number that added some constraint to peoples choices without it being so small you couldn't pick more than one project. How much funding will come around next time is a thread unto itself really (especially in Ottawa where the NCC and interprovincial needs create a very unique circumstance, for a Canadian city).

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I think a little more strategizing is in order and easy and quick wins are important. I think it's important to focus on items which improve overall usability too. The BRTs aren't sexy to anybody here but they improve bus rides so much. And given how many folks work in Gatineau, connections across the river really need to have more capital invested in them.

Ottawa-Gatineau transit links, that meet the needs of commuters from both sides of the river, really should be a priority. It is rather frustrating that the NCC seems content to just let the two agencies figure things out, while the two agencies each develop plans in isolation instead of working together. I lived in Gatineau (old Hull to be specific) for several years, while working and going to school in Ottawa. It was a good thing that I liked walking, in all seasons, because connections could be so poor outside Monday to Friday commuting times that it was often faster to just walk to Ottawa than deal with transit.

And that leads into one of the big issues with interprovincial connections. Outside of peak commuting periods, there just doesn't seem to be a huge demand for cross river trips. Maybe there would be more if the service was better? But even then, what would the draw be for most people in Ottawa to go to central Gatineau if they are not working there (by contrast the other direction, Gatineau to Ottawa, offers a lot more scenarios where some would cross the river outside of peak hours). So from that perspective, it is easy to see why Ottawa isn't really in a rush to address that particular transit need. So it is a challenging situation all around.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

"The whole area inside the greenbelt" would still include large swaths of urban area dependent on buses running in mixed traffic with zero transit priority.

Indeed. Which is why bus lanes or some form of BRT on every major east-west corridor should be a priority. Cities around the world are learning that not all transit issues are solved by building more rail.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

Ottawa-Gatineau transit links, that meet the needs of commuters from both sides of the river, really should be a priority. It is rather frustrating that the NCC seems content to just let the two agencies figure things out, while the two agencies each develop plans in isolation instead of working together.

The actual links are only part of the problem. I can't believe that payment is an issue. I can't use Presto on STO to start a trip unless I buy a pass, according to the nice lady at the OC Transpo booth in Rideau. Points of friction like this shouldn't exist.

I also think Gatineau is making a mistake not converting the Rapibus corridor to LRT first. Perfect opportunity to integrate Bayview. And that corridor is practically designed to be fed by buses.

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The actual links are only part of the problem. I can't believe that payment is an issue. I can't use Presto on STO to start a trip unless I buy a pass, according to the nice lady at the OC Transpo booth in Rideau. Points of friction like this shouldn't exist.

I also think Gatineau is making a mistake not converting the Rapibus corridor to LRT first. Perfect opportunity to integrate Bayview. And that corridor is practically designed to be fed by buses.

Payment has always been an issue with the two systems, so I totally agree with that statement. There are lots of solutions that could get around this issue, but like anything, there needs to be the will to do so in the first place.

I would still maintain that Bayview and the POW bridge are not ideal for interprovincial transit. While it does help facilitate people in Ottawa living in the south and west ends get to Gatineau, it doesn't help those coming from the east, and it doesn't really do anything for Gatineau commuters looking to get to Ottawa either. Same with the SLR plan to use the POW to connect to Bayview, it is a really janky plan that might make life easier for people in Aylmer, but that is really the only sector of Gatineau that would benefit from that plan.

A good interprovincial plan is one that improves transit for both sides of the river, and from both the east and west, which no proposal has done yet. Anything that doesn't actually do that is just a waste of money.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The actual links are only part of the problem. I can't believe that payment is an issue. I can't use Presto on STO to start a trip unless I buy a pass, according to the nice lady at the OC Transpo booth in Rideau. Points of friction like this shouldn't exist.

I also think Gatineau is making a mistake not converting the Rapibus corridor to LRT first. Perfect opportunity to integrate Bayview. And that corridor is practically designed to be fed by buses.

The RapiBus corridor opened in 2013. Much to early to convert. The City now needs to focus on serving the west end. I do believe the RapiBus should have been built as a rail corridor from the very beginning, but that ship has sailed.

Though it isn't part of the plan thus far, Gatineau might benefit from building a transit tunnel (bus and rail) under Laurier from Montcalm to the Interprovincial Bridge, with a station in the old C.P. tunnel at the Château Laurier. Leave the PoW for Ottawa to cross the Trillium all the way to the Zibi lands. That way, both transit services have their own crossing into the other jurisdiction, better balancing cross-border ridership.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Indeed. Which is why bus lanes or some form of BRT on every major east-west corridor should be a priority. Cities around the world are learning that not all transit issues are solved by building more rail.

Well, we've already ruled it out on Rideau-Montreal.

And not just east-west. It should not take an hour for a bus to get to Lansdowne Park from the downtown core.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

I would still maintain that Bayview and the POW bridge are not ideal for interprovincial transit. While it does help facilitate people in Ottawa living in the south and west ends get to Gatineau, it doesn't help those coming from the east, and it doesn't really do anything for Gatineau commuters looking to get to Ottawa either.

What's the problem with transferring at Bayview? Once you have trains running in dedicated and segregated rights of way, what difference does the transfer location make? It's still a hell of a lot better than the existing bus situation.

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

What's the problem with transferring at Bayview? Once you have trains running in dedicated and segregated rights of way, what difference does the transfer location make? It's still a hell of a lot better than the existing bus situation.

Going back to what I originally said, if you are coming from the west or south, then Bayview is no a bad option to cross the river (although how far into Gatineau it would go is another factor in how effective it would be as a service). If you are coming from the east, your not going to take the O-Train all the way to Bayview, then transfer, then back track into central Gatineau. And for people coming from Gatineau, it wouldn't make sense to take a bus, or LRT, to central Gatineau, transfer to the O-Train to get to Bayview, and then transfer once more. For those going to the CBD/Rideau area, you just stay on the bus. And for those going to Tunney's, a bus shuttle from central Gatineau, or taking the bus across the river, and walking to Lyon Station is going to be a better option.

Using Alexandria and Portage make way more sense, for both agencies. This is where the existing flow is. The obsession with using the POW bridge has always just struck me as wanting to use it because its there, and not because it makes a lot of sense.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The RapiBus corridor opened in 2013. Much to early to convert. The City now needs to focus on serving the west end. I do believe the RapiBus should have been built as a rail corridor from the very beginning, but that ship has sailed.

Though it isn't part of the plan thus far, Gatineau might benefit from building a transit tunnel (bus and rail) under Laurier from Montcalm to the Interprovincial Bridge, with a station in the old C.P. tunnel at the Château Laurier. Leave the PoW for Ottawa to cross the Trillium all the way to the Zibi lands. That way, both transit services have their own crossing into the other jurisdiction, better balancing cross-border ridership.

The other advantage would be it would be possible to build a direct link into Rideau Station, making transfers a breeze.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

I would still maintain that Bayview and the POW bridge are not ideal for interprovincial transit. While it does help facilitate people in Ottawa living in the south and west ends get to Gatineau, it doesn't help those coming from the east, and it doesn't really do anything for Gatineau commuters looking to get to Ottawa either. Same with the SLR plan to use the POW to connect to Bayview, it is a really janky plan that might make life easier for people in Aylmer, but that is really the only sector of Gatineau that would benefit from that plan.

A good interprovincial plan is one that improves transit for both sides of the river, and from both the east and west, which no proposal has done yet. Anything that doesn't actually do that is just a waste of money.

POW bridge may not be ideal, but it's not terrible either. and would definitely be a useful component of a more robust interprovincial transit system.

[JohnnyRenton]

Originally Posted by Horus

POW bridge may not be ideal, but it's not terrible either. and would definitely be a useful component of a more robust interprovincial transit system.

True, it isn't the worst. But it depends on how much it would cost to rehab the bridge, and create a connection on the Gatineau side of the river. And how much use it would actually get relative to other options. I also think the cost of not just rehabbing it, but the higher levels of on-going maintenance needed for a 100+ year old bridge, are going to be a lot higher than was has been quoted when push comes to shove.