Métro City Condos | ?m | 3 x 20 fl | Proposed

[drpgq]

I live in the Arkledun and I pretty much consider it downtown. Also proud to live in a building above the escarpment.

The argument about mass transit is ridiculous. If that spot doesn't have it, then obviously nowhere "Downtown" has it either.

The design revue panel needs a court challenge. Basically it is just another force of NIMBYism.

Do the people in Olympia live a wretched existence?

[LRTfan]

Originally Posted by drpgq

I live in the Arkledun and I pretty much consider it downtown. Also proud to live in a building above the escarpment.

The argument about mass transit is ridiculous. If that spot doesn't have it, then obviously nowhere "Downtown" has it either.

The design revue panel needs a court challenge. Basically it is just another force of NIMBYism.

Do the people in Olympia live a wretched existence?

Actually, the Arledun is 9 metres shorter than the escarpment.
The only portion of the Olympia that is higher is the mechanical level.
The city has been using an artificially low number for 'top of the escarpment' the last few years. Which is incredible considering how easy it is to go onto Google Earth, find one of the backyards that is literally ON the edge of the escarpment, and measure it. It's 194 metres high in this area.
Google Earth also allows you to drag the cursor and find the height on buildings etc..... Although, again, just with the naked eye its simple to stand at the Sam Lawrence Park parking lot and realize that you're looking DOWN on the main roof of the Olympia Tower. The Olympia reaches 194 metres part way up the side of the mechanical level.

[king10]

Originally Posted by drpgq

I live in the Arkledun and I pretty much consider it downtown. Also proud to live in a building above the escarpment.

The argument about mass transit is ridiculous. If that spot doesn't have it, then obviously nowhere "Downtown" has it either.

The design revue panel needs a court challenge. Basically it is just another force of NIMBYism.

Do the people in Olympia live a wretched existence?

The DRP makes recommendations that arent binding. They simply give their opinion. What would there be to challenge in court? The City has the final say and has yet to render its decision.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by movingtohamilton

Huh? You describe yourself as an artist. You should know that the artistic imagination of an architect is the spark of the design. Real-world issues coming from that imagined finished building (its design) are defined and addressed. With perseverance and luck, the soaring imagination survives.

I am both an artist AND an architectural technologist. I realize it's the spark of the design, but I also realize many architects are not tethered down in the limitations of the real-world issues and structural limitations, as in they make what looks pretty, not necessarily what will actually work. And while it's good to have vision it's also important to be grounded in reality. Almost anything CAN be built with enough innovation, but that raises the costs. Some things simply can't be built as the are proposed or they will cause the building to eventually collapse. And some proposals are simply shut down by the people these designers are proposing their designs to or told to change as we all know.

The architect doesn't address the structural issues and the hvac/plumbing/electrical design - that is up to the architectural technologists and the structural engineers. The architects deal more with the proposed design.

What looks good on paper does not always transition into design. I just wish that the design we see was the design that came out after the structural engineers and technologists had a look at it first, because then the design you see is what will actually be built, and people who pre-bought won't feel cheated out of the design they fell for, once they are given a different result in the end.

[bigguy1231]

Amazing. People on a site called skayscraper page complaining about 36 and 30 floor buildings being too tall. Just think about what you are saying for a second and you might realize why this city has stagnated for the last 30 years. Attitudes like this have cost this city dearly. Hopefully these developers don't decide to take their money elsewhere like they have for so much for the last few decades.

[LRTfan]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

Amazing. People on a site called skayscraper page complaining about 36 and 30 floor buildings being too tall. Just think about what you are saying for a second and you might realize why this city has stagnated for the last 30 years. Attitudes like this have cost this city dearly. Hopefully these developers don't decide to take their money elsewhere like they have for so much for the last few decades.

I've always said, cities are successful or decay on purpose - it's all about leadership. Hamilton has always loved giving the few hundred whiny folks who hate change all the power. And we pay for it.
It really is embarrassing. I see a corner like Upper James/Stonechurch with it's mega parking and future LRT as a great spot for a 26-36 storey cluster of mixed use towers...here we won't even allow it DOWNTOWN. What a joke.

[king10]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

Amazing. People on a site called skayscraper page complaining about 36 and 30 floor buildings being too tall. Just think about what you are saying for a second and you might realize why this city has stagnated for the last 30 years. Attitudes like this have cost this city dearly. Hopefully these developers don't decide to take their money elsewhere like they have for so much for the last few decades.

Hamilton doesnt have any skyscrapers. Guess its time to shut this whole sub forum down. Who do i contact?

We should delete all the suburb, transportation and ec dev forums too. This is a skyscraper forum after all.

Not building 50 story towers isnt why the city has stagnated. It stagnated because our major industry, steel faltered. We had all our eggs in one basket. We’re beginning to retool and are now reaping the benefits.

Which of the downtown developers would “take their money elsewhere” other than Lamb? Spalacci, Liuna, Vranich have always built in Hamilton.

Again are we just clamouring for tall towers just because we like looking at big things? City building has a whole lot more to it than building tall things. Id rather have 50 thirty story towers downtown as opposed to a couple 60 story towers with a swath of parking lots in between.

[TheRitsman]

You guys are insane sometimes. Hamilton is not stagnating because they don't want to allow terribly designed super tall buildings right beside the escarpment. I'm totally cool with tall building that extend above the escarpment, but these ugly things right beside the escarpment would clearly block a ton of the view. The developers obviously knew this otherwise they wouldn't have decreased the height willingly. I think they should have a larger bottom staggered floorplate rather than a 3 storey podium then 3 glass slate behemoths. It's just bad design. However the old designwas worse.

I get a forum liking scyscrapers, I do too, but it's like that's all anyone here cares about. There are many factors that go into a great city, and glass and steel reaching 50 storeys into the sky will not work alone. You sound just as crazy as the NIMBYs when you say that without 5 more storeys Hamilton's future it ruined. Step back a second and listen to what you're saying.

On top of that a skyscraper definition is literally just: "a very tall building of many stories."

[Crapht]

Thank you @TheRitsman. These towers would completely destroy any views from Sam Lawrence Park. A public place for everyone to enjoy. Of course we should be able to build 50 storey towers but maybe north of Hunter street. I think this is the same developer as the Connaught? They should be allowed to build 50 storeys at the Connaught and keep the John st project at 10ish.

[LRTfan]

This isn't about tall buildings. This thread is a sliver of the bigger problem. If any of you know investors, business people etc... you'll know what I'm about to talk about - the closed for business, old-boys club, 1970's culture at city hall. I know a ton of business people and they have story after story of ways city hall is constantly trying to make it hard to do business and invest in this city. This ridiculous height issue isn't 'why' Hamilton has stagnated. But the thinking behind it IS.
We've got generational guys at city hall who want everything frozen in time. 1985 forever is fine with them if it means they show up to work and putter around until retirement.

Cities that are booming and prospering are open to business, open to new ideas, open to exciting, forward-thinking things. We aren't.

[king10]

Originally Posted by LRTfan

This isn't about tall buildings. This thread is a sliver of the bigger problem. If any of you know investors, business people etc... you'll know what I'm about to talk about - the closed for business, old-boys club, 1970's culture at city hall. I know a ton of business people and they have story after story of ways city hall is constantly trying to make it hard to do business and invest in this city. This ridiculous height issue isn't 'why' Hamilton has stagnated. But the thinking behind it IS.
We've got generational guys at city hall who want everything frozen in time. 1985 forever is fine with them if it means they show up to work and putter around until retirement.

Cities that are booming and prospering are open to business, open to new ideas, open to exciting, forward-thinking things. We aren't.

What about the tens of millions in DC exemptions given to developers in the downtown core? As well as the BIAs exempted from certain development fees. As well as facade restoration grants. Tax abatement program. Etc. These City initiatives are what has spurred a good chunk of development.

Also this post is interesting given i just posted in another thead the globe and mail article on the Citys planning GM who came to the City 5 years ago previously from the private sector. Hardly the “old boys club” you speak of.

This arguement just seems like tall buldings in toronto and nyc look cool, why cant we have that. And because we cant have tall buildings we’re stuck in 1985 and we arent “booming and prospering”.

Just because the city doesnt build 50 story towers like youd like, doesnt meant its not open for business and doesnt prevent it from booming and prospering. The media has stuffed down our throats this “renasaince” in hamilton. We arent stuck behind others because we lack super tall bullildings just because.

I appreciate the look of tall buildings, Im just not buying this thinking is what is holding the city back.

[Pipedreams]

While I do agree that sometimes we can get polarized into those who dream of "big for the sake of big" skyscrapers and those who dream of "placemaking and heritage" but my biggest fear is that we've created so many layers or regulation, approvals and red tape that the only way a developer can find it lucrative to build in Hamilton is to build 30+ stories. I imagine if I was a developer facing the mountains of red tape it seems to get anything done in Hamilton it simply wouldn't be worth it to buy land a build 4-8 story mixed usage buildings.

I too would love to have an Amsterdam style layout of dense by not looming mixed use buildings in a pedestrian and bike friendly layout; but I fear if we make our desires too restrictive we can loose investment in the city we need. Like others have mentioned a dense core will provide a population that can support many of the amenities (like restaurants, arts, mass transit, shared public spaces) that many of us would love to see.

[lachlanholmes]

Originally Posted by Pipedreams

While I do agree that sometimes we can get polarized into those who dream of "big for the sake of big" skyscrapers and those who dream of "placemaking and heritage" but my biggest fear is that we've created so many layers or regulation, approvals and red tape that the only way a developer can find it lucrative to build in Hamilton is to build 30+ stories. I imagine if I was a developer facing the mountains of red tape it seems to get anything done in Hamilton it simply wouldn't be worth it to buy land a build 4-8 story mixed usage buildings.

I too would love to have an Amsterdam style layout of dense by not looming mixed use buildings in a pedestrian and bike friendly layout; but I fear if we make our desires too restrictive we can loose investment in the city we need. Like others have mentioned a dense core will provide a population that can support many of the amenities (like restaurants, arts, mass transit, shared public spaces) that many of us would love to see.

Welcome to the forum. I would agree with you for the most part. I think the key that Hamilton has to focus on is not regulating the size, height or density of developments, but rather how they interact with the street, whether they're mixed use, how much parking they have, how will the materiality be, etc etc. As well as a larger focus on the city's side to improve their urban infrastructure, road design, public spaces (like the city hall forecourt), and such.

You need people to make a great city and you need buildings to house those people. If a developer wants to build a building, make sure it's serving the people around it by being mixed use, by having retail or commercial in the base, by having less parking, etc. rather than denying it because it's too tall or too dense or too big. The pursuit of perfect Urban planning cannot be the enemy of the good, and it certainly cannot economic realities like it does here in Hamilton.

[Chronamut]

I think cities are facing another problem too - and that is the fact that many people simply shop online now, thus preventing a lot of stores that would fill the first floor of many of these buildings from actually opening up.

It's why you're seeing mainly restaurants, spas, beer places opening up, because those are still things people prefer to go out to see, but the days of blockbuster stores, clothing stores, odds and ends stores, those are all disappearing. Amazon and wal-mart are basically putting all the other businesses out of businesses so that even if you DO add more people to the core, there is a lack of TYPES of businesses to open up that are available to the public, so it's kinda like you're taking a small city and copy pasting it all over the city - the same places all over the place.

I mean james st has a lot of art galleries sure, but I can tell you as someone who is active in that community and showed all over hamilton and toronto - while there may be a lot of artists in the city, there aren't a lot of buyers - the money isn't there in hamilton yet. That may change with the influx of people in the core - but most simply like to look, and unless its between 5-20 bucks, aren't going to buy anything. Unless it's supercrawl - you do get some good sales at supercrawl.

I'll tell you nothing is more frustrating then someone saying "man your art is incredible, I don't get why noone is buying it" - and you say well do you want to buy it? "oh no I'm just looking" - would you LISTEN to yourself people..

Also it's refreshing to see so many people on both sides of the argument above - it makes for good discussion, and there are definitely merits, but on BOTH sides. Personally, I'd rather see innovation of design than height. Height is great from far away but innovation of design is much better close up.

[LRTfan]

Originally Posted by Chronamut

I think cities are facing another problem too - and that is the fact that many people simply shop online now, thus preventing a lot of stores that would fill the first floor of many of these buildings from actually opening up.

It's why you're seeing mainly restaurants, spas, beer places opening up, because those are still things people prefer to go out to see, but the days of blockbuster stores, clothing stores, odds and ends stores, those are all disappearing. Amazon and wal-mart are basically putting all the other businesses out of businesses so that even if you DO add more people to the core, there is a lack of TYPES of businesses to open up that are available to the public, so it's kinda like you're taking a small city and copy pasting it all over the city - the same places all over the place.

I mean james st has a lot of art galleries sure, but I can tell you as someone who is active in that community and showed all over hamilton and toronto - while there may be a lot of artists in the city, there aren't a lot of buyers - the money isn't there in hamilton yet. That may change with the influx of people in the core - but most simply like to look, and unless its between 5-20 bucks, aren't going to buy anything. Unless it's supercrawl - you do get some good sales at supercrawl.

I'll tell you nothing is more frustrating then someone saying "man your art is incredible, I don't get why noone is buying it" - and you say well do you want to buy it? "oh no I'm just looking" - would you LISTEN to yourself people..

Also it's refreshing to see so many people on both sides of the argument above - it makes for good discussion, and there are definitely merits, but on BOTH sides. Personally, I'd rather see innovation of design than height. Height is great from far away but innovation of design is much better close up.

> I think cities are facing another problem too - and that is the fact that many people simply shop online now, thus preventing a lot of stores that would fill the first floor of many of these buildings from actually opening up.

This isn't a problem in TO, Vancouver, Montreal, Seattle, NYC, Portland, Boston, Calgary, Ottawa etc.....

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by LRTfan

> I think cities are facing another problem too - and that is the fact that many people simply shop online now, thus preventing a lot of stores that would fill the first floor of many of these buildings from actually opening up.

This isn't a problem in TO, Vancouver, Montreal, Seattle, NYC, Portland, Boston, Calgary, Ottawa etc.....

Well those places most likely have big name stores already established.. look what happened in our city - the fancy stores faded away and were replaced by.. cashmart places.. which I firmly believe shouldn't be allowed as much as they are in this city.

[LRTfan]

It's not all that complicated. People and jobs lead to everything else. And people lead to more jobs coming.
Business owners aren't stupid. There's a reason why downtown Hamilton is full of money marts and Nordstrom opened in downtown TO.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by LRTfan

It's not all that complicated. People and jobs lead to everything else. And people lead to more jobs coming.
Business owners aren't stupid. There's a reason why downtown Hamilton is full of money marts and Nordstrom opened in downtown TO.

if it were that simple then there wouldn't be a housing crisis in a city that has 750,000 people. You make it seem like hamilton is sparsely populated - it's not. Money marts pop up in places where people need to borrow money, aka they are not making enough. The people are here, but the jobs are not. I'm not sure cramming 30,000 people into the core is going to magically "create more jobs" - its business owners that must move in to provide the jobs, having more people in the core in no way guarantees that - I mean look at the eatons center - its right in the core and it still remains empty - we have office buildings everywhere that are either vacant or sparsely populated - I think the problem is a little more complex than you make it out to be.

For one the cost of renting has skyrocketed - so it's also a matter of what job you get - you're not going to be able to afford to live downtown working at mcdonalds for example. The average cost for a 2 bedroom apartment now is around 1600 a month - for a 1 bedroom 1200-1400. And that's just in the city in general. Downtown it can rise to 2000-3000 a month. Even with minimum wage at 15 dollars that's pretty unrealistic.

You also need people down town who are EDUCATED. The students residence downtown in the william thomas building isn't going to generate jobs. Those people either have money or their parents are paying for them to stay there. They are in the process of getting educated, but once they get their mcmaster or mohawk college degrees most of them aren't going to stick around.

The other people moving in already have money - they have successful jobs already either here or in toronto or other places or they wouldn't be able to afford to live downtown. It's not generating jobs - it's just bringing people who already have jobs here. Usually empty nesters who want to downsize, and are thus already retired.

And that's the thing - you want people to movedowntown who have money, but the amt of jobs available in hamilton that can pay for those types of wages for the most part just aren't there. Not at the moment anyways, and I don't know if they even will be once the core becomes built up more. People just don't associate hamilton with high paying jobs, unless you're in the medical industry.

-----

This city started to tank when the steel industry collapsed in hamilton - as was said we put all our eggs in one basket - industry - much like detroit michigen did. Now those services are done overseas, and our steel industry isn't even canadian owned anymore. The question becomes what kind of a city will we become. Granted we have the medical industry - but that also means hamilton becomes a welfare city for every person with all sorts of medical problems as they move here to get care from those places.

They brag we have a thriving arts scene but the turnover rates of those galleries is astounding. The tax rates on being in those buildings downtown is also some of the highest around. People go in, they struggle, and they leave. Look at the london taphouse. It survived for a while, then the saloon place went in after and it barely lasted any amt of time at all. Or the restaurant in the lister block who didnt pay his workers and tanked.

[drpgq]

Originally Posted by Chronamut

For one the cost of renting has skyrocketed - so it's also a matter of what job you get - you're not going to be able to afford to live downtown working at mcdonalds for example. The average cost for a 2 bedroom apartment now is around 1600 a month - for a 1 bedroom 1200-1400. And that's just in the city in general. Downtown it can rise to 2000-3000 a month. Even with minimum wage at 15 dollars that's pretty unrealistic.
.

I don't get why you're complaining about rent and not wanting as many units as possible. Hamilton needs new supply and everything unit it can get, which it could have had if this original project had been allowed to go ahead rather than this truncated version.

This project would have been great for helping meet the province's intensification goals, great from a climate change perspective, good for taxpayers, good for transit connections (despite whatever that one member of the review panel said) and would likely add riders for the HSR. It is surrounded by mostly other apartment buildings and the hospital so there's minimal disruption to single family homeowners.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by drpgq

I don't get why you're complaining about rent and not wanting as many units as possible. Hamilton needs new supply and everything unit it can get, which it could have had if this original project had been allowed to go ahead rather than this truncated version.

This project would have been great for helping meet the province's intensification goals, great from a climate change perspective, good for taxpayers, good for transit connections (despite whatever that one member of the review panel said) and would likely add riders for the HSR. It is surrounded by mostly other apartment buildings and the hospital so there's minimal disruption to single family homeowners.

I never said I didn't want as many units as possible for this specific build - I stated I was on board with this project since I'm used to tall buildings being this close to the escarpment like the olympia and the hospital.

I don't however believe in simply height for heights sake - nor do I feel like truncating a building by a few levels is a disaster for hamiltons downtown intensification. It's still getting several more units than it currently have - and anything more than what is currently there is going to help the downtown - so you may wanna scale back the outrage - it's not the end of the world.