Vancouver General Discussion Thread

[Klazu]

Mayor Moonbeam at it again... The whole world seems to have gone crazy in front of the Syrian refugees. Europe blindly opened the floodgates and now we here in Vancouver should take and house thousands upon thousands of refugees from a conflict we have nothing to do with???

We cannot help everyone and currently we are failing to help even our own weakest people. This madness has to stop.

A public forum will be held on Tuesday night to discuss Vancouver Mayor Gregor Robertson’s plan to open Vancouver into a ‘sanctuary’ for Syrian refugees.

In a release, Robertson says he will submit a motion to City Council to formally call upon the federal government to accept 20,000 government-sponsored refugees each year by 2020.

Robertson is critical of the Conservative government’s stance given that the federal government has historically taken a lead role in the organization of sponsorships and resettlement of refugees fleeing from a crisis.

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/09/v...nctuary-syria/

[ozonemania]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Mayor Moonbeam at it again... The whole world seems to have gone crazy in front of the Syrian refugees. Europe blindly opened the floodgates and now we here in Vancouver should take and house thousands upon thousands of refugees from a conflict we have nothing to do with???

We cannot help everyone and currently we are failing to help even our own weakest people. This madness has to stop.

This is a chivalrous gesture, to help those that are not even in a position to help themselves. I would argue that this is a classic Canadian held value, a virtue perhaps not as highly regarded as it once was.

I have to say tho, that the story of the drowned child spurring such international reaction is something I don't quite understand. Children have died numerous times and continue to die, yet that one photo does it?

You are right, we can't help everyone. But we can help some of them, we may be even able to help many of them. We do what we can.

Our homeless may be in dire situations themselves, but you could argue they have been availed opportunities to get help themselves that refugees have not.

[s211]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Mayor Moonbeam at it again... The whole world seems to have gone crazy in front of the Syrian refugees. Europe blindly opened the floodgates and now we here in Vancouver should take and house thousands upon thousands of refugees from a conflict we have nothing to do with???

We cannot help everyone and currently we are failing to help even our own weakest people. This madness has to stop.

It's hard to remain a pacifist when Moonbeam opens his fool mouth.

What's next, a motion to give each Syrian refugee a bike?

[Klazu]

Didn't he promise to end homelessness in Vancouver during his reign? I am just throwing out a number, but that is maybe something like 2000 people (one tenth of the number of refugees he would love to take in every year)? And even that small feat has not been successful!! How on Earth does he think we can support ten times that number every. single. year.??

The annual number of new homes built in the Metro cannot be much more hugely more than that, perhaps double? How is he planning to fund building almost double the housing every year??? This equation does not make any sense.

I don't want to make this a debate about the crisis itself, but I HUGELY question his logic on how this could work in any shape or form? This is just impossible (and downright crazy).

Did he just want to trump Christy, who today only promised 1 million dollars to aid the crisis with tears in her eyes?

[quobobo]

Cool rants guys, they might even make sense if that 20,000 number was for Vancouver and not Canada as a whole.

[jlousa]

It's not a rant, it's a valid point. The mayor should be concerned with civic matters not federal ones. He had the chance to run for the Federal Liberals but turned it down. Get back to running the city.

[quobobo]

^Your point about federal vs. municipal responsibilities is very different from (and a lot better than) the ones that came before it.

[Klazu]

Well said, jlousa. This is not his turf in the slightest sense.

On national level it is interesting to read some people's comments on how Canada should take more Syrian refugees than Germany (which is taking 800 000 only this year and 500 000 every year after that) and this only because we are several times larger country by land surface.

There is no way for Canada to build or fund such number of new housing. I don't understand how even Germany is planning on doing that? Vancouver being the most expensive city in the country and most of the world, it is also perhaps not the best idea to settle large numbers of these poor people in here. They would find it very difficult to support themselves or establish their new lives in here.

[WarrenC12]

He's just raising the issue. You could argue cities shouldn't even be responsible for homeless populations and subsidized housing. Collecting only 8 cents out of every tax dollar means the responsibilities of cities could easily end with roads, sewers, police and fire.

The problem is that higher levels of government have abandoned these responsibilities.

I guarantee if the mayor came out in support of something SSP forumers like, he would be called a hero, regardless of his governmental jurisdiction.

20,000 refugees a year is a pittance. We've accepted far more during other times of international strife.

[s211]

Originally Posted by jlousa

It's not a rant, it's a valid point. The mayor should be concerned with civic matters not federal ones. He had the chance to run for the Federal Liberals but turned it down. Get back to running the city.

I swear that Gregor is trying to act at as if he was voted in to play in the federal sandbox, using his election at the civic level as a proxy. What's next, a pledge to cure the common cold?

[Genauso]

Syrian refugees are in the news specifically to get European NATO members to send military forces to Syria.

Opportunistic politicians everywhere are trying to benefit their image, or injure their opponents' as it is free publicity.

There may be select groups of people with tacit interests, like business leaders who have long lobbied for immigration to lower costs of lesser skilled jobs and will use this chance to secure it.

If it were about helping people, there are many people and many things to do. The closer you get to actually making a difference, the more work it is and the less certain the outcome. eg: refugees of Canada that are homeless in Vancouver

[csbvan]

Christy Clark also has made big statements and promises about the Syrian Refugee crisis. Of course, this forum obsesses with attacking the mayor. Yawn.

[dreambrother808]

Also, there is a lot of public sympathy for the refugee crisis, so don't in any way think your critiques of Robertson are aligned with the majority who voted for him.

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by Klazu

There is no way for Canada to build or fund such number of new housing. Vancouver being the most expensive city in the country and most of the world, it is also perhaps not the best idea to settle large numbers of these poor people in here. They would find it very difficult to support themselves or establish their new lives in here.

You know,...I have been closely watching Vancouver's high drug gang violence/murder rate and I am starting to conclude that a big part of such social dysfunction lies in this region's extremely high cost of living/housing, relatively low wages and the attendant economic desperation/poverty that encourages young unemployed or underemployed males to pursue such a glamorized/dangerous lifestyle!

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

You know,...I have been closely watching Vancouver's high drug gang violence/murder rate and I am starting to conclude that a big part of such social dysfunction lies in this region's extremely high cost of living/housing, relatively low wages and the attendant economic desperation/poverty that encourages young unemployed or underemployed males to pursue such a glamorized/dangerous lifestyle!

A lot, if not most, of Vancouver gang members come from middle class families. Inequality is a problem here, but it's not like it is in other places where the working class often have no other choice. Lack of options is not the main reason for gang violence here.

[quobobo]

A visualization of Vancouver's zoning code (source):

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

He's just raising the issue. You could argue cities shouldn't even be responsible for homeless populations and subsidized housing. Collecting only 8 cents out of every tax dollar means the responsibilities of cities could easily end with roads, sewers, police and fire.

The problem is that higher levels of government have abandoned these responsibilities.

I guarantee if the mayor came out in support of something SSP forumers like, he would be called a hero, regardless of his governmental jurisdiction.

20,000 refugees a year is a pittance. We've accepted far more during other times of international strife.

Surrey alone takes in 12,000 or more new people per year into the city. 20,000 for the entirety of Canada is nothing I agree.

And you're spot on with the counter that cities probably shouldn't even be responsible. Case and point the homeless fight given the CoV didn't cause the problems on the downtown east side, it was caused by mental hospitals being shut down by the Province pushing those in them into the hands of drug lords. The CoV has probably spent 100s of times more money in the past decade in that area trying to clean it up and maintain some sort of order compared to the governments responsible for the problem.

That said, I think it is valid to think the Mayor of Vancouver should not weigh into the discussion but at the end of the day we should also help out given the west has contributed to the problems in Syria. We kind of kicked over a bunch of park benches then are half-assed helping out. Don't commit all the way because we don't want another war, but keep the entire region in turmoil because we do enough to keep things crap. So it's only right that we take in some of the refuges as with the rest of the western world.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

A lot, if not most, of Vancouver gang members come from middle class families. Inequality is a problem here, but it's not like it is in other places where the working class often have no other choice. Lack of options is not the main reason for gang violence here.

Also hate to say it but you have to take into account age and race when it comes to the gangs in Metro Vancouver. Certain communities including the Indo Canadian and Asian communities seem to turn a blind eye more than others to youth getting into criminal activities and organization. Now obviously there are all gamuts of age and race in gangs, but if you look at where it starts and where much of the recorded violence is, age and race play statistically relevant and contributing factors.

Any culture that puts "saving face" above doing the right thing is in danger of the level of gang encouragement we see here in the west. I grew up in Surrey and a lot of the gangs in my high-school were 80-90% made up of Indo-Canadians and most if not all were born here but the cultural norms were still being adhered to in home and in community. Most indo-Canadians I grew up with were fine and not in gangs don't get me wrong, but a large portion OF the gangs were. Just the fact RCMP E-Division had (and has still?) a specific Indo-Canadian gang task force, should tell everyone something. Yes there are Bacon brothers and other but again I'm talking higher predisposition which again emphasis more education and targeting specific youth groups rather than brushing things aside and hiding from the truth only to save face or "honor."

That's another reason why I feel you see a higher rate out in Surrey than in many other parts. Partly because we have a large population but also because we have a younger demographic overall and some of the established communities I mentioned above that unfortunately often don't discourage criminal activity. Are things improving? Hopefully, but I fear when the murders and shooting numbers drop down to established "norm" it will be out of sight, out of mind, and we'll go back to status quo then in 10-15 years we'll be back to today.

Unfortunately humans are inherently not nice creatures. I always take exception when people tell me "deep down, people are nice" when they see acts of kindness because it misses the entire context of the world. When you look across the entire world from wealthy 1% in the western world, to many parts of Africa, the middle east, Asia, and South America, the underlining truth is that most people lie, steal, bribe, and cheat. Some people are nice, humanity as a whole is not.

So some of it there just isn't much we will ever be able to do about it.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by Genauso

Syrian refugees are in the news specifically to get European NATO members to send military forces to Syria.

Whaat? You mean the crisis that the West and their Gulf partners manufactured and fostered by supporting and arming radical Islamists is now being used for political purposes?

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

A lot, if not most, of Vancouver gang members come from middle class families. Inequality is a problem here, but it's not like it is in other places where the working class often have no other choice. Lack of options is not the main reason for gang violence here.

There is a tendency to throw the term "middle class' around loosely as if it is a predeterminator or insulator for poverty and certain cultural disposition to societal acts of violent desperation. Truth be told, many folks who think that they are solidly "middle class" are not and are living on a financial ledge in debt! Even so, many youngsters from so called middle class homes cannot find (or sometmes do not want legal) well paying/"good jobs" to sustain their desired AFFLUENT "middle class" lifestyle.....hence the allure of drug gangs. I wonder if Toronto has the same demographics of "middle class" youngsters engaging in street level drug gangs or are they more so the traditional poor immigrant youth from dysfunctional single parent/mother households?