Rapid Transit in the Halifax area

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Not bad suggestions, though the bottlenecked section of Robie from Almon to Cunard makes that section unusable for this. Windsor over that stretch might be a better choice.

I still don't understand the attraction/viability of trams that would run on regular streets. I get that they are sexy, but they seem impractical. Putting in tracks is very expensive, trams too. Buses can run those exact same routes and are more flexible. They don't have to follow a tracked route; they can detour around accidents and other blockages, and be used anywhere else in the city as future or temporary demands require. If there is a notion that a tram wouldn't have to contend with traffic (right of way that cars cant use) then the same could be done with dedicated lanes for buses on corridors.

I agree that rapid payment systems could speed loading a bit, and that the routes should be redesigned like tram routes but use buses.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by terrynorthend

I still don't understand the attraction/viability of trams that would run on regular streets. I get that they are sexy, but they seem impractical. Putting in tracks is very expensive, trams too. Buses can run those exact same routes and are more flexible. They don't have to follow a tracked route; they can detour around accidents and other blockages, and be used anywhere else in the city as future or temporary demands require. If there is a notion that a tram wouldn't have to contend with traffic (right of way that cars cant use) then the same could be done with dedicated lanes for buses on corridors.

I agree that rapid payment systems could speed loading a bit, and that the routes should be redesigned like tram routes but use buses.

Part of it is that it's easier to create a dedicated right of way for streetcars since they're guided by tracks and therefore can operate in narrower spaces. Dedicated bus lanes require more room. And notably, streetcars can hold more people since being on tracks can allow the vehicle to be longer and still maneuver around turns. And they attract more people since the public tends to like them better than buses. Whether or not that's worth the investment I suppose would depend on whom you ask.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Part of it is that it's easier to create a dedicated right of way for streetcars since they're guided by tracks and therefore can operate in narrower spaces. Dedicated bus lanes require more room. And notably, streetcars can hold more people since being on tracks can allow the vehicle to be longer and still maneuver around turns. And they attract more people since the public tends to like them better than buses. Whether or not that's worth the investment I suppose would depend on whom you ask.

They're also a lot nicer to ride and much quieter and cleaner. The difference when you're walking along a street that's a streetcar corridor instead of a diesel bus corridor is huge. You can get a bit of a sense of that in Halifax by considering what Argyle is like compared to Barrington. Electric buses are about halfway between the two but have many of the same drawbacks as streetcars.

I think the qualitative aspects of streetcars are given too little weight. Modern streetcar systems have been built in many US cities and they've spurred on a lot of real estate development. In Portland, assessments have increased much more along the streetcar corridors than they have in other parts of the city. The increase is much larger than the cost of building the lines ($4.5B increase vs. around $300-500M in development cost for around 12 km of routes, http://portlandstreetcar.org/pdf/201...mentReport.pdf). Traditionally, buses don't create this type of spinoff effect. When you look at something like the HRM study of the tax implications of urban vs. suburban development, moving even $1B of development into the city is huge. I think the real impact would be even better than this because there are people who would move to dense streetcar neighbourhoods in Halifax who wouldn't otherwise even consider the city.

The caveat is that the streetcars are a service for the inner parts of the city. They wouldn't be a cost-effective service for outer suburban areas. They might work in inner suburban areas like Clayton Park, particularly if they run along corridors with development potential.

First and foremost I think Halifax needs good transit corridors that are minimally held up by other vehicle traffic. Streetcars along routes like Gottingen and Young Street or Spring Garden to the universities and hospitals might be a nice complement to that.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Not bad suggestions, though the bottlenecked section of Robie from Almon to Cunard makes that section unusable for this. Windsor over that stretch might be a better choice.

Yes, that is the biggest problem in that part of town... a tram would work in close quarters though (I don't like how people keep calling them them streetcars... in my mind streetcars are slow, trams are faster!).

This picture of one of the Bombardier trams shows how close traffic can be... and realistically, Robie has tons of room all the way from Cunard to the deep south end.
Credit: Ian Green

Maybe the tram could turn east at Cunard and terminus somewhere around the new roundabout (Armoury station). The other terminus would obviously be SMU Station. It would be a perfect North-South peninsular run... combine that with something going from Downtown all the way west on Quinpool to near the rotary and the major population would be served. Hell, just this, the number 1 and the 52/4 would make Halifax fairly streamlined.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by someone123

The caveat is that the streetcars are a service for the inner parts of the city. They wouldn't be a cost-effective service for outer suburban areas. They might work in inner suburban areas like Clayton Park, particularly if they run along corridors with development potential.

Not necessarily true... trams could rip all the way out to CP if the route is planned well. Maybe the benefit of all those stupid shrubby medians in CP would be a tram plopped right in the middle. The densities are even high in the Lacewood area.

Just look at Amsterdam... sure its flat, but its routes aren't exactly straight. The tram #2 goes all the way out to the ring road from central station... a distance further by walking than peninsular Halifax to CP. I expect density to increase within the areas to the east of Bayer's lake. Fairview must have quite a high population density to the east, especially with all these new buildings.

[Hali87]

Regardless of what type of vehicle/technology this would involve, I think the most urgent and important changes need to address the system's (increasingly poor) reliability. Transit is rightfully gaining a reputation as unreliable to the point of barely being practical for most users. Things like bus lanes, dedicated rail corridors, or signal prioritization all need to happen ASAP, or ridership will probably suffer, and traffic will consequently get worse for everyone.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Not necessarily true... trams could rip all the way out to CP if the route is planned well. Maybe the benefit of all those stupid shrubby medians in CP would be a tram plopped right in the middle. The densities are even high in the Lacewood area.

Just look at Amsterdam... sure its flat, but its routes aren't exactly straight. The tram #2 goes all the way out to the ring road from central station... a distance further by walking than peninsular Halifax to CP. I expect density to increase within the areas to the east of Bayer's lake. Fairview must have quite a high population density to the east, especially with all these new buildings.

Is that Amsterdam route a legacy route left over from before the internal combustion era? At one time long distance streetcar routes (tram is a British English term which we use for a cable car in NA) were very common. We even had interurbans in many cities but that was because there wasn't really any choice. Nowdays it takes a high amount of ridership to justify the huge cost of electrification and track laying when there are cheaper alternatives like a bus. Well, perhaps it required high ridership then too, but without buses or private cars to compete, they had it.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Does anybody know how well streetcars (or trams or whatever) do in snow conditions? I'm not old enough to remember rail travel in Halifax but I'm wondering how they did on the hilly sections in the many snow/ice storms that we get here. Buses surely don't do that well, just wondering if a rail system would be better/worse in that regard.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Does anybody know how well streetcars (or trams or whatever) do in snow conditions? I'm not old enough to remember rail travel in Halifax but I'm wondering how they did on the hilly sections in the many snow/ice storms that we get here. Buses surely don't do that well, just wondering if a rail system would be better/worse in that regard.

They run in Toronto, which gets more snow than Halifax.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

They run in Toronto, which gets more snow than Halifax.

Toronto gets more snow?

How about hills? Does Toronto have steep grades like Halifax downtown?

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Does anybody know how well streetcars (or trams or whatever) do in snow conditions? I'm not old enough to remember rail travel in Halifax but I'm wondering how they did on the hilly sections in the many snow/ice storms that we get here. Buses surely don't do that well, just wondering if a rail system would be better/worse in that regard.

Indeed, Toronto's streetcars get bunged up by all sorts of problems, from traffic to broken wires to mechanical failures, but snow rarely seems to be a problem. (Cold can be a problem, because there's some sort of hydraulic braking system that gets frozen up, but that seems to be an issue due to the age of the streetcar fleet. The newer ones the city is getting don't have that problem.)

The Alberta LRT systems, which operate mostly outdoors in a harsher climate, seem to do fine in snowy conditions as well.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Toronto gets more snow?

How about hills? Does Toronto have steep grades like Halifax downtown?

Yup! Bathurst line has hills as bad as Sackville St.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Yup! Bathurst line has hills as bad as Sackville St.

Interesting. So in bad storms they don't become stuck? Sounds good for Halifax, then. Thanks!

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Interesting. So in bad storms they don't become stuck? Sounds good for Halifax, then. Thanks!

No worse than buses.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Is that Amsterdam route a legacy route left over from before the internal combustion era? At one time long distance streetcar routes (tram is a British English term which we use for a cable car in NA) were very common. We even had interurbans in many cities but that was because there wasn't really any choice. Nowdays it takes a high amount of ridership to justify the huge cost of electrification and track laying when there are cheaper alternatives like a bus. Well, perhaps it required high ridership then too, but without buses or private cars to compete, they had it.

No, its a tram line that reaches to areas developed in the 1970s... there are parallel lines that go outward from the centre that all reach out to these areas. It was never a "train track" per se. There are buses that fill in the gaps.

Seriously, if we built the bridges, etc... we could be doing this right now.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Indeed, Toronto's streetcars get bunged up by all sorts of problems, from traffic to broken wires to mechanical failures, but snow rarely seems to be a problem. (Cold can be a problem, because there's some sort of hydraulic braking system that gets frozen up, but that seems to be an issue due to the age of the streetcar fleet. The newer ones the city is getting don't have that problem.)

Its all about age... those old "street cars" are nothing compared to modern trams... especially when comparing the number of people the "car" can move versus the entire tram.



I wouldn't call them LRT, but they are definitely not "streetcars".

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Indeed, Toronto's streetcars get bunged up by all sorts of problems, from traffic to broken wires to mechanical failures, but snow rarely seems to be a problem. (Cold can be a problem, because there's some sort of hydraulic braking system that gets frozen up, but that seems to be an issue due to the age of the streetcar fleet. The newer ones the city is getting don't have that problem.)

The Alberta LRT systems, which operate mostly outdoors in a harsher climate, seem to do fine in snowy conditions as well.

Thanks Drybrain, I missed your post the first time around. I was wondering mostly about hills, after seeing some buses get stuck on Halifax's hills in the last 2 snowstorms. When looking at the old trolley photos I noticed them going up some pretty severe grades (like Jacob St., which no longer exists) and naturally I wondered with steel wheels on steel rails, if there would be a traction problem. Nothing that I read about the old trolleys indicated that they typically would get stuck in the snow.

An article I read yesterday also noted that snowbanks can cause a problem as sometimes cars park further out due to the banks, effectively blocking the streetcars, so they have to be fairly vigilant about towing them away to prevent blockage since the streetcars can't simply steer around the cars like buses.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Thanks Drybrain, I missed your post the first time around. I was wondering mostly about hills, after seeing some buses get stuck on Halifax's hills in the last 2 snowstorms. When looking at the old trolley photos I noticed them going up some pretty severe grades (like Jacob St., which no longer exists) and naturally I wondered with steel wheels on steel rails, if there would be a traction problem. Nothing that I read about the old trolleys indicated that they typically would get stuck in the snow.

An article I read yesterday also noted that snowbanks can cause a problem as sometimes cars park further out due to the banks, effectively blocking the streetcars, so they have to be fairly vigilant about towing them away to prevent blockage since the streetcars can't simply steer around the cars like buses.

I don't know about hills--the grades aren't very steep on Toronto's lines, though I imagine back in the early 20th century, when there were streetcar lines running north up Yonge and Bathurst, they would have had to deal with steep grades. And then you've got those famous San Francisco trolleys. So I imagine it wouldn't be an insurmountable challenge. Wouldn't want to lose power on a hill though.

But really, Halifax's routes wouldn't be that hilly either, except going east-west in the downtown core.

I don't know how common it is, but I was on the Queen streetcar one day a few winters ago, and we did get delayed due to a car parking too close to the centre of the street (because of a snowbank). The delay was something ridiculous, 50 minutes or something until it was towed. It was a sweaty, dirty, jammed, rush-hour ride as it was, and it felt like there was about to be a mutiny by the riders. I think if the car's owner had come back while the streetcar was stuck, he might have been in physical danger. And of course it screwed up that entire transit line all morning.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I don't know about hills--the grades aren't very steep on Toronto's lines, though I imagine back in the early 20th century, when there were streetcar lines running north up Yonge and Bathurst, they would have had to deal with steep grades. And then you've got those famous San Francisco trolleys. So I imagine it wouldn't be an insurmountable challenge. Wouldn't want to lose power on a hill though.

But really, Halifax's routes wouldn't be that hilly either, except going east-west in the downtown core.

I don't know how common it is, but I was on the Queen streetcar one day a few winters ago, and we did get delayed due to a car parking too close to the centre of the street (because of a snowbank). The delay was something ridiculous, 50 minutes or something until it was towed. It was a sweaty, dirty, jammed, rush-hour ride as it was, and it felt like there was about to be a mutiny by the riders. I think if the car's owner had come back while the streetcar was stuck, he might have been in physical danger. And of course it screwed up that entire transit line all morning.

One thing about San Francisco's cable cars is that they are actually driven by cables below the street grade. The driver moves levers to grip and release the cables to start and stop. Was on them a few years ago and it was quite entertaining to watch the drivers work. They did really earn their paycheck. Plus, SF doesn't get snow.

I think if Halifax were to get street cars, they'd really have to up their game on snow clearing and towing offending vehicles. Problem with towing, though, is that if traffic is backed up it may be really difficult to get a truck to the location.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Thanks Drybrain, I missed your post the first time around. I was wondering mostly about hills, after seeing some buses get stuck on Halifax's hills in the last 2 snowstorms. When looking at the old trolley photos I noticed them going up some pretty severe grades (like Jacob St., which no longer exists) and naturally I wondered with steel wheels on steel rails, if there would be a traction problem. Nothing that I read about the old trolleys indicated that they typically would get stuck in the snow.

Trains deal with that problem by dropping sand on the rails under the drive wheels, don't they? At least they did in the movies.