Boise Transportation Thread

[ATLonthebrain]

The 1/3 is a best case scenario for 2013, BoiseAirport. It could be absorbed, but would be dependent upon which markets get additional seat capacity or whether there are new markets added to the nonstop service mix. I think much of what you have on your Wish List is possible over the next 18-months. But, the local economy has to keep doing its part and improving with bringing good paying jobs back to the market, reducing the unemployment rate below 7%. And, more locals who have been sitting tight and holding off on that vacation (by air) need to take it already. Trust me, I understand apprehension to spending on leisure travel but, when there is too much of it, combined with less business travel, the result is basically what we see as our reality today. Airlines aren't here to cater to us as individuals. So, less demand has yielded less capacity. Yes, ticket prices are higher, but that's not just because airlines want to charge us more. It truly is based almost entirely on the high price of fuel today and the volatility of it going forward. Still, I have traveled more this year than last through the first 4-months so, I'm doing my part. Are you (question to the valley's residents & visitors!)?

[isangpogi]

BoiseAirport, I like your wishlist...

AS/QX:
Boise-San Jose - 2nd daily flight
Boise-Sacramento - 2nd daily flight
Boise-Spokane - 1-2 daily flights
Boise-Reno-Los Angeles - 2 daily flights
Boise-Seattle: replace 3 QX flights with AS 737s
Boise-Portland: replace 2 QX flights with 1 AS 737

All seem very realistic. It is nice having the frequency that comes with Q400s over 737s, but they are just so cramped and I'm only 5'10"! Your BOI-RNO-LAX idea is intriguing, but I think at least one more direct LAX flight could be supported out of BOI. If QX flew BOI to RNO, then a passenger could take advantage of the AA/QX codeshare and connect on to LAX. I think this would also be too long for comfort on a Q400: an hour to RNO, at least 30 mins on the ground then another hour and a half down to LAX.

3M (Silver):
Boise-Idaho Falls - 3 daily flights (I know it seems a bit high, but I think frequency is required to effectively compete with car traffic on this route)
Boise-Bozeman - 1 daily flight
Boise-Billings - 1 daily flight
Boise-Pendleton or Pasco - 1 daily flight

My question here is what will Silver do different from SeaPort when they flew BOI-IDA? They would absolutely need to bring the cost down to be successful. $79-$99 one way, nonrefundable, advance purchase would be a good price point, but could that cover costs? Of course many business travelers will pay full-fare. Interesting that you mention Pasco, last time I flew to SEA I was seated next to a guy flying there. He had to fly an hour and a half to Seattle, wait two hours there, then catch a quick flight to tri-cities. "It would have been faster to drive," I said. He shrugged his shoulders and said since his company was paying, he'd prefer not to be in the driver's seat.

UA:
Boise-Denver: Consolidate RJs, add a flight and make it 4x mainline total
Boise-San Francisco: replace 2 CR7s with 1 A319
Boise-Washington Dulles: this one's a stretch but maybe a seasonal 319

The flights out of San Francisco are so often delayed and cancelled that they might as well consolidate 2 RJs to an A319. I've seen several times that two flights land from SFO within the hour when they were supposed to be separated by a couple of hours... I would be interested to see if east-coast service would be viable from BOI. Another option would be to Newark. Before either of those happen though I would guess UA would try service to the Houston hub.

WS:
Boise-Vancouver or Calgary - 1 daily flight with their new Q400s (haha I know, dream on...)

I thought the same thing, WestJet has a huge hole in their route map in the NW. Since passengers could be pre-cleared in Calgary they wouldn't need to go through nonexistent customs here. I doubt there's much demand between the two cities though...

Let us know though what you learn at the meeting. I'm glad we have a proactive chamber of commerce and am dying to know what the plan is to increase air service. As the most isolated city in the US of Boise's size, we really need good air service to stay competitive with well paying jobs.

[Cottonwood]

http://cyclepub.com/boise/





http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/bw-...nt?oid=2648877

BW Bike Issue: The Drinking Cycle
A new way to pub crawl
by Josh Gross @TheJoshGross

After spending the last few years in Boise flipping houses, Mike Thomas went to visit friends in Bend, Ore., and found an unusual business opportunity cruising the streets: Cycle Pub.

Thomas knew he had to bring it back to Boise.

"Boise and Bend are very similar culturally and seeing the marriage of craft beer--which is up and coming in Boise--and bicycling, which is already established in Boise, just made sense," Thomas said. "Additionally, Boise is much flatter than Bend, so I thought it would be much more workable."

What is Cycle Pub? Call it a limo for the green movement, or a Rube Goldberg-esque way to make the several block jaunt between downtown bars more whimsical. But in straight terms, Cycle Pub is a 14-seat, pedal-powered bar that Boiseans can rent to facilitate their downtown pub crawl. It is the size of a large cargo van and looks like a beach cantina on wheels. You may have seen it out on a few test runs late in 2011, but Cycle Pub Boise officially launched in April.

[BoiseAirport]

Originally Posted by ATLonthebrain

The 1/3 is a best case scenario for 2013, BoiseAirport. It could be absorbed, but would be dependent upon which markets get additional seat capacity or whether there are new markets added to the nonstop service mix. I think much of what you have on your Wish List is possible over the next 18-months. But, the local economy has to keep doing its part and improving with bringing good paying jobs back to the market, reducing the unemployment rate below 7%. And, more locals who have been sitting tight and holding off on that vacation (by air) need to take it already. Trust me, I understand apprehension to spending on leisure travel but, when there is too much of it, combined with less business travel, the result is basically what we see as our reality today. Airlines aren't here to cater to us as individuals. So, less demand has yielded less capacity. Yes, ticket prices are higher, but that's not just because airlines want to charge us more. It truly is based almost entirely on the high price of fuel today and the volatility of it going forward. Still, I have traveled more this year than last through the first 4-months so, I'm doing my part. Are you (question to the valley's residents & visitors!)?

Well said. While I don't travel near as much as I used to, the travel I used to do was non-rev whereas since last year I've been paying for my tickets so in that regard I've been more valuable as a traveler.

Originally Posted by isangpogi

All seem very realistic. It is nice having the frequency that comes with Q400s over 737s, but they are just so cramped and I'm only 5'10"! Your BOI-RNO-LAX idea is intriguing, but I think at least one more direct LAX flight could be supported out of BOI. If QX flew BOI to RNO, then a passenger could take advantage of the AA/QX codeshare and connect on to LAX. I think this would also be too long for comfort on a Q400: an hour to RNO, at least 30 mins on the ground then another hour and a half down to LAX.

Perhaps 2x daily BOI-RNO-LAX-RNO-BOI, and 1x daily GEG-BOI-LAX-BOI-GEG would fare better. The good thing about the stop in Reno is that while you might lose a little traffic who want a nonstop, you consolidate the market that goes to both Reno and Los Angeles into two flights, and I think a Q400 is the perfect-size aircraft for the market right now. You'd probably want to start with that, and if it's successful then add a GEG (who doesn't have any service whatsoever to LAX)-BOI-LAX flight, either on QX or OO with their CRJ-700s.

While the flight would still be longer than a nonstop, it would be shorter than any of the one-stop competition.

Originally Posted by isangpogi

My question here is what will Silver do different from SeaPort when they flew BOI-IDA? They would absolutely need to bring the cost down to be successful. $79-$99 one way, nonrefundable, advance purchase would be a good price point, but could that cover costs? Of course many business travelers will pay full-fare. Interesting that you mention Pasco, last time I flew to SEA I was seated next to a guy flying there. He had to fly an hour and a half to Seattle, wait two hours there, then catch a quick flight to tri-cities. "It would have been faster to drive," I said. He shrugged his shoulders and said since his company was paying, he'd prefer not to be in the driver's seat.

Here's my take: the biggest problem with SeaPort's service was that they were using entirely the wrong aircraft for the market. I think Silver would be successful where SeaPort wasn't because the Beech 1900 has a lower CASM than the new Pilatus aircraft that SeaPort was flying. This would allow Silver to profitably charge much more attractive fares than what SeaPort was offering.

ATLonthebrain might have access to data that I don't have, so he could verify or correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by isangpogi

The flights out of San Francisco are so often delayed and cancelled that they might as well consolidate 2 RJs to an A319. I've seen several times that two flights land from SFO within the hour when they were supposed to be separated by a couple of hours... I would be interested to see if east-coast service would be viable from BOI. Another option would be to Newark. Before either of those happen though I would guess UA would try service to the Houston hub.

The thing about any east-coast service is that it's all very unattractive when fuel is as high as it is. The only shot we have for another east-coast link is Washington, D.C. due to the political and business traffic which might result in high enough yields to make it work. I do disagree with Boyd's comment that Boise will never see nonstop New York service, but I would say depending on the economy it's probably at least 5 years out.

[BoiseAirport]

What a bummer. I'm not going to be able to make it to the Air Service Summit. It sold out a lot faster than I thought, should've bought tickets when I had the chance.

ATLonthebrain, fill us in on how it goes?

[BoiseAirport]

I wasn't able to make it to the air service summit, but here are some articles and tweets about it:

Boise Airport looking to add service, attract more business


May 15th, 2012

Read more: http://www.ktvb.com/news/business/Bo...151637875.html

OISE -- Three times in the past year airlines that once offered service from Boise decided to cut routes.

Losing airlines means limiting the options for people flying into and out of the capital city, and that’s not good for business.

...

The Airport Summit was held at the Grove Hotel in downtown Boise today. City leaders and people in the travel industry met to discuss how to attract more airlines, and how to bring new businesses and jobs to Boise.

...

Boise Airport Director Rebecca Hupp says they plan to focus on adding services to hubs in Dallas, Houston, and destinations that connect to the East Coast. She says this summer Delta will add a non-stop flight to Minneapolis-St. Paul, and Alaska Airlines plans to add 100 employees to their ground crew in Boise.

...

The Boise Airport also plans to promote the message that the airport offers good air service and encourages people in Boise to fly more.

Some tweets from the Boise Chamber of Commerce during the event:

• "The @BoiseChamber #airservicesummit has begun at the Boise Centre."
• "Renowned Aviation Futurist Michael Boyd of Boyd Group International is speaking on the realities of air service in Boise. #airservicesummit"
• "Boyd: We have to conform to the realities of current airline business model: a profit and revenue system. #airservicesummit"
• "Boyd: Boise to Denver or Boise to Los Angeles not the future. #airservicesummit"
• "Boyd: Airlines are shrinking. Airlines aren't adding airplanes. Airlines aren't going after growth. #airservicesummit"
• "Boyd: the Airline Industry is evolving into a more regionalized transportation system. #airservicesummit"
• "Boyd: The amount of service is not the issue. It's about access. 'Can you get there from here?' #airservicesummit"
• "Boyd: Boise has access to nine hubs. Boise has great access to international routes. #airservicesummit"
• "Boyd: Air service in Boise is focused on western markets. It's harder to get to East Coast markets. #airservicesummit"
• "RT @raystark Non-stop to Atlanta probably won't come back. #airservicesummit"
• "Boyd: Boise to Reno, Seattle, SLC ... Just not enough traffic for Southwest Airlines... Simple as that. #airservicesummit"
• "Boyd: Boise to Idaho Falls just not feasible for profitable air service. There were only about 14 passengers per day. #airservicesummit"
• "Boyd: American Airlines left Boise because their load factor was only 73%. #airservicesummit"
• "Boyd: Lost routes are due to airline economics and traffic levels. But traffic levels have stabilized. #airservicesummit"
• "New Boise Airport Director, Rebecca Hupp, is about to take the podium. #airservicesummit"
• "Hupp: At peak in 2007, BOI had 7 airlines and 21 nonstop destinations. 2012: 5 airlines and 15 nonstop destinations. #airservicesummit"
• "Hupp: A new carrier coming to Boise would be a long shot. #airservicesummit"
• "Hupp: possibility to use a Small Community Air Service Development Grant to help lure an airline to service BOI-Dallas. #airservicesummit"
• "State Rep. Wendy Jaquet of Sun Valley/Ketchum to take the podium. #airservicesummit"
• "RT @raystark SUN has non-stops on Alaska to SEA and LAX; Delta to SLC. #airservicesummit"
• "Jaquet: Nonstops from SUN to SEA and LAX kept open through MRG (minimum revenue guarantee) paid for by Sun Valley Resort. #airservicesummit"

[boi2socal]

Just from the above...it seems like they just were reiterating that Boise doesn't have service. I didn't really see any ideas or a plan. Pretty negative actually. And I think the KTVB article has to be speaking of Alaska's crew base. If Alaska were actually adding 100 ground crew members there would be major expansion, which would have already been announced.

[ATLonthebrain]

Originally Posted by boi2socal

Just from the above...it seems like they just were reiterating that Boise doesn't have service. I didn't really see any ideas or a plan. Pretty negative actually. And I think the KTVB article has to be speaking of Alaska's crew base. If Alaska were actually adding 100 ground crew members there would be major expansion, which would have already been announced.

The Air Service Summit was actually very positive. I say this because it gave locals who attended a "Reality Check". Also, airlines generally do not want it to be known that it is considering service to certain markets (for competitive purposes and other reasons), so it's not likely that the Airport would put out for all to hear everything it is working on behind the scenes. BOI's isolation, I think, sometimes leads to people not getting the fact that things are not all rosy and that BOI really does have good air service. We can no longer compare this market to what it was in 2007 because, quite frankly, that was when we were at the top as a community. And, it was also when service from two shortlived carriers were @ BOI (ExpressJet - flying to ONT & SAN, and also to LAX as Delta Connection - and Big Sky to Montana). It may be years before we again see anything remotely similar to those "good times". 2012 is the new reality, and this is the new baseline.

One point which I think was missed is that, once again, most of the service we lost either wasn't being highly utilized and/or was unprofitable. It was mentioned, but I think it could have been even more blatantly focused on. There was a slide during Mike Boyd's presentation showing the 2011 Load Factors for the 3-routes Southwest discontinued @ BOI. All were below 60%! The highest was RNO at 59%. That means an average of 80 passengers (of 137-seats) were traveling on each of its 2-daily RNO roundtrips, and it is a low-fare market to boot, so revenues weren't strong. Folks, that just doesn't cut it, and is exactly why it along with SLC & SEA were cut from WN's route network. There is a perception that these flights were "always full"..clearly, not reality! Southwest's systemwide Load Factor is near or above 80% consistently these days, for comparison purposes. That means an extra 30 passengers above the average 80 passengers who were on the RNO flights. BIG difference..

I am not at liberty to speak in detail about what is planned, however, I can tell you there is much being discussed with multiple air carriers, both incumbents as well as potential new entrants. There is a plan, one which is already well underway, but it's not really for the public to know exactly what the details are. As negotiations become agreements for new service, that is when the details are revealed, in a News Release or Press Conference, one effort (and victory) at a time.

As for ideas, there was a pretty clear one which was pitched by the Airport Director. It is no secret BOI wants DFW service back. It is preparing to submit a grant application under a Federal program for funds to use in negotiations with American Airlines. So, time will tell whether BOI is successful both in its charge to obtain grant funds as well as reach an agreement with American to resume DFW service in 2013.

[Evo5Boise]

Ya it absolutely amazes me to think back to the early 90's when I was attending my years at Lowell Scott middle school. Eagle road was nothing at all but a quiet little 2 lane road and there were nothing but fields around Lowell Scott.

I know a lot can happen in a 20 year period but I think it just surprised me at how fast it happened. This city has grown up tremendously since I was a kid running around causing trouble.

[Boisebro]

the new freeway is new to me.

anyone have a link to an article or map? will this freeway connect with I84, and will it be part of the interstate?

[jthomps4]

I assume they're talking about the extension of hwy 16 from state st south to 84

[isangpogi]

Originally Posted by Boisebro

the new freeway is new to me.

anyone have a link to an article or map? will this freeway connect with I84, and will it be part of the interstate?

Here's some info on the first phase, connecting 44 and 20/26 via a new river crossing. This project is beginning soon and is funded: http://itd.idaho.gov/Projects/D3/Ida...6toIdaho44.asp

Here's info on the second phase, connecting 20/26 to I-84. This project has been extensively researched and planned, and is awaiting funding. The new freeway will tentatively be called ID-16, possibly could be designated an interstate depending on receipt of federal funds: http://itd.idaho.gov/Projects/garvee/D3/default.asp

I think it's a good idea, and one long overdue. Unfortunately, because it's so long overdue, the freeway is going in the middle of nowhere. Certainly though this will spur growth in the area. ITD absolutely needs to be more forward-thinking when it comes to freeway construction.

[Boizean]

Originally Posted by Boisebro

the new freeway is new to me.

anyone have a link to an article or map? will this freeway connect with I84, and will it be part of the interstate?

I believe the Initial Phase is now out to bid and construction will commence very soon.

From the ITD website; image from within the pdf http://itd.idaho.gov/Projects/garvee...lternative.pdf

More information about Hwy 16 can be found here http://itd.idaho.gov/Projects/garvee...entalStudy.asp

[Cottonwood]

http://www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005142438

To Boise, nonstop?
Grant could bring daily service, connector to southern U.S.

by KATHERINE WUTZ




This map shows routes proposed for service if the Boise Airport receives a federal Department of Transportation grant. The grant would also provide nonstop service from Friedman Memorial Airport to Boise.
Express graphic by Tony Barriatua


All it would take is $1 million from a federal agency to create a direct flight between Boise Airport and Friedman Memorial Airport—and from Boise to an airport in the southern U.S., say airport officials.

[boi2socal]

Originally Posted by Cottonwood

http://www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005142438

To Boise, nonstop?
Grant could bring daily service, connector to southern U.S.

by KATHERINE WUTZ




This map shows routes proposed for service if the Boise Airport receives a federal Department of Transportation grant. The grant would also provide nonstop service from Friedman Memorial Airport to Boise.
Express graphic by Tony Barriatua


All it would take is $1 million from a federal agency to create a direct flight between Boise Airport and Friedman Memorial Airport—and from Boise to an airport in the southern U.S., say airport officials.

I wouldn't trust SeaPort. It'd be nice if Horizon just added a Seattle-Sun Valley flight via Boise, or better yet Los Angeles-Sun Valley via Boise. Those flights often end up in Boise anyways due to diversions. But this money is just to develop these routes, it is no guarantee. That's if Boise even gets the money. I imagine it would go to a smaller community.

[isangpogi]

Originally Posted by boi2socal

I wouldn't trust SeaPort. It'd be nice if Horizon just added a Seattle-Sun Valley flight via Boise, or better yet Los Angeles-Sun Valley via Boise. Those flights often end up in Boise anyways due to diversions. But this money is just to develop these routes, it is no guarantee. That's if Boise even gets the money. I imagine it would go to a smaller community.

I agree with being distrustful of SeaPort. Like BoiseAirport says, the aircraft they fly are far too inefficient for commercial air travel. It seems the only routes they are successful in are subsidized by the Essential Air Service program.

I think the big problem with a BOI-SUN route is the same as a BOI-IDA route. Delta already flies several daily flights to SUN from SLC. Since SLC is a huge Delta hub and Boise is not, passengers will choose connecting in SLC over connecting in BOI. Local traffic between BOI and SUN would be very low since it's only a couple hours drive between the two cities. Business travelers can easily drive to SUN in the morning then be back in BOI before dark.

I am encouraged by local media reports that the Boise Airport is going after grant money to get nonstop service to DFW, Houston or Atlanta...

So forumers.... Given the three options of nonstop to Dallas/Ft. Worth on American, Houston on United or Atlanta on Delta which would do you think would be best and why?

All three are the respective airlines' largest hubs. For me I'd choose DFW. It opens up the option of one-stop connecting to the entire southwest from Boise without much backtracking. It may be the least likely of the three though given that American no longer has a presence at Boise. My second choice would be Houston on United for similar reasoning.

[BOIguy]

Bump

[BOIguy]

Only way for BOI to learn whether it is worthy of funds under this program is to apply. Spokane applied and was successful last year, so why not give it a try? It is a busier airport than BOI.

Of the hubs mentioned, I think ATL has the best chances of happening. AA is already in CH11 and may soon be consumed in Merger Mania while United is sparring with the City of Houston over Southwest's plans to expand internationally at Hobby Airport and is unlikely to add considerable service there anytime soon. DL, on the other hand, operates the World's Largest Hub @ ATL and flew the route nonstop as recently as 2009. While not mentioned specifically, I wouldn't count out US to CLT, as it continues to build its hub there as an alternative to DL's @ ATL.

You can get to many cities in the South Central U.S. via UA's DEN hub. Even smaller markets like Little Rock and Shreveport are served from there. But, hardly any small hubs in the Southeast can be reached with one connection from BOI currently. That would be the key to DL via ATL. And, the international connections to the Caribbean, South America, and Europe from ATL are vast. I read over 80 foreign markets are served nonstop from ATL.

As for SUN, Horizon used to tag BOI service but that's just too much airplane to be successful on such a short route. I wouldn't say don't trust SeaPort. I understand there are reasons why the BOI-IDA service ended that many may not be aware of.

Fingers crossed that BOI is awarded funds under the grant!

[boi2socal]

Originally Posted by BOIguy

Only way for BOI to learn whether it is worthy of funds under this program is to apply. Spokane applied and was successful last year, so why not give it a try? It is a busier airport than BOI.

Well, Spokane has more traffic, but Boise has better service; Boise has a few more non stop destinations. Spokane has faced Southwest cuts as well, and I haven't seen any new routes out of there since this grant. Personally, I think grants and such are just more pork belly spending. In any case, I think Delta would bring back Atlanta or United to Houston. I'm curious how many people a day travel to NYC Area airports.

[Evo5Boise]

It seriously has been an issue for Boise for a long time. And I try my hardest to figure out why they turned a blind eye to it. I really feel like Boise was SO stuck on trying to stay a small town/city that they thought if they ignored it, well, it would all go away. And, as is obvious, it didn't.

I remember when I visited Hunstville, Alabama. It is similar in size to Boise (though I do believe a tad smaller) and their road infrastructure was amazing to me. I could only think....Why Boise? Why!?