High Speed Rail Forum!

[Dupcheck]

Originally Posted by jammer139

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-1...ossing/8792328

Video isn't even a real HSR train. ie: 200Kmh plus

Real HSR track beds that support 200, 250, 300+ Kmh trains cannot risk level crossings from safety perspective. You can't afford a accident at this speed.

It's way different then a freight train rail bed that maxes out at 120Kmh.

How many level crossings are so torn up by vehicles (ie: trucks) that you wouldn't be able to run the train at its rated speed.

Spending $30B to run trains at 150Kmh is a show stopper. Just like spending $500M plus on BRT that only saves 1-3 mins on a bus trip in London.

I agree 100%. Safety is #1 here folks.

[PeteM]

-deleted-

[Djeffery]

I think it's the roadways at the crossings that are beat up from traffic, not the rails.

I don't get the point with that video from Poland. It was an idiot driver that went through the barricade. Therefore there should never be a level crossing anywhere? That video wasw also at night, and the road curved to the tracks. And a group of people get out of the car, so was the driver distracted by conversation? Maybe alcohol involved? I don't see the speed of the train being the problem here. Maybe there should be better signage and barriers as well.

Also, if we use manny's idea that they follow the power lines right of way, then in addition to the 20 some odd north/south roads that crosses from east of London to Woodstock, there are also a dozen or so east/west roads as well, assuming the line ties in to the CN line east of VMP to come to downtown London. As well as crossing the CP line just north of 2/73 intersection. I don't think it's fair to the residents in the county to suggest they are only going to be able to cross the HSR at every 4th or 5th road. And I'm still doubtful of seeing any kind of high frequency on this. Maybe early morning and evening rush hour, you might see them every half hour until 9am or so, but from 9 to about 4, I'd be surprised at hourly and shocked at more than that.

And again, what about all the level crossings in east London? They aren't going to maintain this ambitious schedule to Toronto if you have to keep down to a safe speed all the way out of the city. And then slow down, stop, unload, load and accelerate again at Kitchener, Guelph and Pearson?

[HillStreetBlues]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I think it's the roadways at the crossings that are beat up from traffic, not the rails.

I don't get the point with that video from Poland. It was an idiot driver that went through the barricade. Therefore there should never be a level crossing anywhere? That video wasw also at night, and the road curved to the tracks. And a group of people get out of the car, so was the driver distracted by conversation? Maybe alcohol involved? I don't see the speed of the train being the problem here. Maybe there should be better signage and barriers as well.

Did you see the headline of that article?

Level crossing collisions do happen. With a high-speed train, the engineer has less reaction time if a vehicle is on the tracks, and so less time to slow down.

The risk is obviously greater to the road traffic, but there can be a significant risk of derailment. This has happened, and that is the reason countries who are good at real high-speed rail generally avoid level crossings.

If the train had impacted the car directly, rather than clipping the back of it, or if it had been a larger vehicle, the outcome might have been a lot different in that Polish case.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by HillStreetBlues

Did you see the headline of that article?

Level crossing collisions do happen. With a high-speed train, the engineer has less reaction time if a vehicle is on the tracks, and so less time to slow down.

The risk is obviously greater to the road traffic, but there can be a significant risk of derailment. This has happened, and that is the reason countries who are good at real high-speed rail generally avoid level crossings.

If the train had impacted the car directly, rather than clipping the back of it, or if it had been a larger vehicle, the outcome might have been a lot different in that Polish case.

Yeah, I don't get what you are saying to dispel what I said. The driver drove through the down gates. This isn't about how fast the train was going, it's that the idiot car driver didn't stop at the crossing. How often does a car get hit there? I'm guessing not very often.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Also, if we use manny's idea that they follow the power lines right of way, then in addition to the 20 some odd north/south roads that crosses from east of London to Woodstock, there are also a dozen or so east/west roads as well, assuming the line ties in to the CN line east of VMP to come to downtown London. As well as crossing the CP line just north of 2/73 intersection. I don't think it's fair to the residents in the county to suggest they are only going to be able to cross the HSR at every 4th or 5th road. And I'm still doubtful of seeing any kind of high frequency on this. Maybe early morning and evening rush hour, you might see them every half hour until 9am or so, but from 9 to about 4, I'd be surprised at hourly and shocked at more than that.

And again, what about all the level crossings in east London? They aren't going to maintain this ambitious schedule to Toronto if you have to keep down to a safe speed all the way out of the city. And then slow down, stop, unload, load and accelerate again at Kitchener, Guelph and Pearson?

One could argue that some of those rural township roads have extremely low traffic volumes that may not justify a grade-separated crossing of the HSR. That said I think a reasonable compromise would be having an overpass at every second concession road. This exact same issue would come up if the province also decided to build a freeway from K-W to London via Stratford.

As for East London, I had thought the preliminary plan released in 2014 was to build HSR on an elevated track from downtown to past Egerton Street.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Why is that? It's not like we are talking about something running at Toronto Subway frequency. They haven't said yet how many trains a day, but I can't imagine it being any more than one an hour during the day. No reason that there can't be level crossings at many of those lesser roads that aren't busy enough to justify an overpass, but also geographically are important enough to not completely block off either. Also, where does the train stop at London then? Surely they aren't going to build an overpass at every road on the way downtown, and nobody is going to accept saying that any of the roads with level crossings now are going to be blocked off.

I believe the base case was for at least 2-4 trains per hour.

As for why no crossings? Transport Canada will probably not allow it. If the line is certified for >= 250 kph, they'll insist on full grade separation. At least if we're following American rules (which we are):

https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/hsip/xin...7010/sec05.cfm

They might be more forgiving if the line is under 200 kph. But at that point too, they'll have to model out how many crashes they expect per year and what the costs and service impacts will be.

Generally speaking, you don't do high speed rail without a substantial amount of grade separation.....usually total grade separation. 1 train or 10 trains per hour is irrelevant.

[Dupcheck]

The car going throw the gates is only one scenario that level crossings with HSR are bad. There are lots of other ones that are not considered here such as: Stalled farm tractor, stuck vehicle from snow drifts, fallen debris from vehicles, etc...

[PeteM]

Originally Posted by jammer139

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-1...ossing/8792328

Video isn't even a real HSR train. ie: 200Kmh plus

Real HSR track beds that support 200, 250, 300+ Kmh trains cannot risk level crossings from safety perspective. You can't afford a accident at this speed.

It's way different then a freight train rail bed that maxes out at 120Kmh.

How many level crossings are so torn up by vehicles (ie: trucks) that you wouldn't be able to run the train at its rated speed.

Spending $30B to run trains at 150Kmh is a show stopper. Just like spending $500M plus on BRT that only saves 1-3 mins on a bus trip in London.

Lol, all the passengers of the car are like "give us our stuff, we'll walk". My grandfather worked for CN for 45 years and retired as a Roadmaster. Each time he heard mention of HSR way back then he said that would cut so many roads off because they won't be able to safely build/manage level crossings.

[jammer139]

It's commitments and promises like these that the weak minded and gullible amongst us believe.

http://lfpress.com/news/local-news/k...doug-ford-wins

Just like the fantasy budget from last week which is worth less then a roll of Cottenelle.

[K85]

her whole at risk is bullshit... as is the high speed plan. I want it so badly..... but even I as gullible a nut as I am know this is only for votes...

I have a friend who will have the rail go right through his barn apparently, and I still think it's worth getting.

[MolsonExport]

Who the hell would vote for a carpetbagging former Hash Dealer and brother (and enabler) of the most embarrassing and inept politician in Canadian history?

I mean, give your head a fucking shake if you plan on voting for the charlatan part deux.

[kaiserLDN]

I like high speed rail and would reallyyyy love a bullet train. It would be really cool. But we all know this isn't going to happen for a long time with Wynne and it takes one recession with this debt load to put this on the back burner. We will be like Greece and no one will be thinking of this project. I would rather see dedicated passenger rail lines built beside the existing corridor then wait 20-30 years for a high speed rail line. London is always waiting and waiting for things. One more study after another. Lets be realistic especially when you have someone that should be in jail for stealing and playing with tax payers money that is running the province. By the time the liberals build this and if they do the rest of the world will be building hyper loops, everyone will have driverless cars and we will have someone on mars. Liberals have been in for 15 years and they decided to put this in there budget 2 months before an election...hmmmmmm

Can't wait to see conservative's in and take the Liberals out. We need something done now. These studies have been going on for to long.

[MolsonExport]

You'd vote for the Lizard? The incredibly corrupt and morally bankrupt Doug Ford?

jesus h christ.

I can't believe people would vote for this bozo.

[Dupcheck]

Kathleen just lost the election by saying this: London-to-Toronto high-speed rail 'at risk' if Doug Ford wins!

If she wanted to win, she should have said: No matter who wins the election, high speed rail should be build at any cost. We care for you and we are going to fight so the HSR gets built.

She is a phony.

Why should such important items such as the HSR be campaign games? This is vital to the province and its economy. This type of project mostly helps everyone, why do we have to give it a political color to it? We should expect who ever comes to power should still build this. It is a need not a want.
Who ever plays games and blames others not going to build it if elected is also wrong. Premier Wynne should have started to build it long time ago, not just start to heat up the subject right before the election to suck up to the voters. Conservatives should step up and say they need to complete the HSR no matter what. If you build it they will come.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Dupcheck

Kathleen just lost the election by saying this: London-to-Toronto high-speed rail 'at risk' if Doug Ford wins!

If she wanted to win, she should have said: No matter who wins the election, high speed rail should be build at any cost. We care for you and we are going to fight so the HSR gets built.

She is a phony.

Why should such important items such as the HSR be campaign games? This is vital to the province and its economy. This type of project mostly helps everyone, why do we have to give it a political color to it? We should expect who ever comes to power should still build this. It is a need not a want.
Who ever plays games and blames others not going to build it if elected is also wrong. Premier Wynne should have started to build it long time ago, not just start to heat up the subject right before the election to suck up to the voters. Conservatives should step up and say they need to complete the HSR no matter what. If you build it they will come.

I am concerned about Doug Ford cancelling such a project because of the PC's track record on public transit, and the attitude of conservatives towards public transit in general. Mike Harris's government cancelled a new subway along Eglinton Ave in Toronto shortly after his election in 1995. Federally, it was the Conservatives who always made cuts to VIA Rail, especially in the mid-80s and in 1990.

The Ford brothers were also often obsessed with the "war on the car" in Toronto, and Rob himself cancelled Toronto's Transit City project shortly after his election in 2010.

[Dupcheck]

This issue is bigger than any politician. It involves multiple cities, almost half the province as a population. We should have this on the ballot no matter who wins, if the people want it, why can't we build it?

[Djeffery]

I don't see why Ford throwing support behind HSR is something that would get him votes. He already has the rural areas of the southwest and those areas are against HSR. I don't know why all the support for HSR without any details being put out anyway. Like, how many trains a day, and how much for fares. VIA is mostly $50-75 each way to Toronto, other than the few really cheap seats and the pricier business class. What's HSR going to cost? $100 each way? Are people really going to spend a grand a week to go work in downtown Toronto just so they can live in London?

After they do Kitchener to Toronto, that will be the end of it, if they even do that line. Just doesn't make economic sense to go as far as London, let alone to Windsor. It is definitely a want, not a need, down this way. Now, if Ford wants to buy some votes with HSR, he will promise Toronto to Montreal. That actually makes sense and will gain him lots of votes in the GTA.

[MrSlippery519]

Further to the HSR talk and if Ford would scrap it, I think it is absolute BS that the government is allowed to spend billions of dollars on environmental studies and plans for things that are not agreed by ALL parties (at least as a majority). This HSR concept should be a directive for Ontario as a whole rather than wasting more tax dollars for something that may get shot down if conservatives get in.

[kaiserLDN]

Ford said he is for all types infrastructure but for the people that don't think ford will build anything we will have to wait and see for his plans. He kept chirping the 401 how busy it was. He is for subways and the list goes on.I have seen some of his recent speeches he hinted at stuff I like and you guys would like to. You cant compare someone decades ago canceling a subway to Ford. Liberals had 15 years.... 15 years to build stuff like rail lines, highways, subways. Keep that in mind. They put 11 Mil in the budget for HSR 2 months before an election with them labeled as having the worst ratings ever. I have way more trust Ford will build infrastructure then Wynne will. I am really scared if a recession happens with the province having this much debt. HSR will be the last thing on all of yours, mine and the provinces minds when a recession happens with this much debt on the books.