London Roads

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Simpseatles

Traffic circles should be implemented more here, but the Hale-Trafalgar overpass is a huge step forward.

Somehow they add a more progressive and pleasant feel to a city, especially out in the suburbs.

Waterloo Region now has 13 roundabouts, and plans to more than double that number in the coming years.

There are some locations in London where roundabouts would work really well and wouldn't eat up a lot of land.

The city has already examined putting a roundabout at the Commissioners/Hamilton/Old Victoria Road intersection and prospected the idea of converting the Wonderland/Warncliffe/Exeter triangle into a large rotary/traffic circle.

Roundabouts work best where you have a lot of turning traffic, because there's no oncoming traffic to stop these movements.
-If one or two of the gas stations were removed, the Wonderland/Oxford intersection would make a great roundabout because there's a ton of traffic turning here.
-Of course there are dozens of other locations in the city where they can work...

A vision of mine would see our city's busiest intersection: Wellington at Commissioners, turned into a roundabout.
-Wellington itself would have to curve a bit to the east, taking up some of the hospital lands of Victoria and Packwood in order to get a proper roundabout to fit. A huge 3 or 4 lane junction could then be added, easing traffic congestion considerably. All those traffic cues on Commissioners and the long red lights on Wellington could be eliminated.

Here's a really rough vision of what it could look like:


For optimal flow, some of the lanes in the roundabout would end, not continue the whole way in the circle. Example:



(just add more lanes to that. )

[go_leafs_go02]

Baby steps. Baby steps.

Turning the busiest intersection into a 3 lane roundabout would be a disaster.

Motorists have NO clue how to use them. Start on low collectors, and then move up to 2 lanes over time. Plopping one down with little or no driver experience would be a nightmare for accidents and congestion. You just need a few drivers to freak out, and they'll just park there waiting, and waiting, and waiting.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Baby steps. Baby steps.

Turning the busiest intersection into a 3 lane roundabout would be a disaster.

Motorists have NO clue how to use them. Start on low collectors, and then move up to 2 lanes over time. Plopping one down with little or no driver experience would be a nightmare for accidents and congestion. You just need a few drivers to freak out, and they'll just park there waiting, and waiting, and waiting.

lol

Of course, of course. Just showing what could be with time. Roundabouts actually work best with a 1 lane circle anyway, because they're easy to use, have no lane switching and thus no weaving.

Once day though maybe we'll take after the example Waterloo Region has set, not to mention all the other cities around the world that already have them in place.

[Simpseatles]

Wow! There are 13 traffic Circles in the Waterloo Region. I knew there were some, but I wasn't gonna bring it up because then I would just get on a rant about how much they are beating London in almost every aspect!

Looks like an ambitious plan! But I like to see these creative ideas.

[bolognium]

Cambridge replaced an intersection with a roundabout close to my old apartment in Preston. It was there when I first visited the area 4 years ago, but still doesn't show up on Google Maps.



It's actually a fairly nice roundabout too. It has a very nice circular garden in the centre and pedestrian crossings on all sides to service the nearby trails. The intersection is relatively busy and handles a lot of turning vehicles like haljackey mentioned. Fountain Street heads East to downtown Preston while Blair Road heads South to downtown Galt; both major centres in Cambridge.

I've biked, bused and been driven through this roundabout hundreds of times and I've never seen any traffic hiccups. I've never experienced a major arterial roundabout, but I love how smoothly these smaller roundabouts can flow.

Roundabouts are definitely another leaf London could take out of KW's book.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by bolognium

It's actually a fairly nice roundabout too. It has a very nice circular garden in the centre and pedestrian crossings on all sides to service the nearby trails.

After doing a quick search, I found a picture of that roundabout:

(From the Region of Waterloo)

Pictures of the 13 roundabouts in Waterloo Region can be found here: http://www.region.waterloo.on.ca/web/region.nsf/roundabouts_waterloo2.html

Imagine what could be in the L-dot...

[Pimpmasterdac]

A good feature that London is finally doing is having a countdown signal underneath pedestrian signals.

I've seen them in Toronto and there good for both pedestrians and drivers. I don't mind having to wait at a red light, as it allows us to know whether we can make the light or not.

There at Wharncliffe & Commissioners, and Oxford & Wonderland so far, hopefully there put at more intersections ASAP!

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

A good feature that London is finally doing is having a countdown signal underneath pedestrian signals.

There at Wharncliffe & Commissioners, and Oxford & Wonderland so far, hopefully there put at more intersections ASAP!

It won't be ASAP I can guarantee you that, but as intersections are fixed up I'd assume more of these would be added.

[Simpseatles]

Originally Posted by bolognium

Cambridge replaced an intersection with a roundabout close to my old apartment in Preston. It was there when I first visited the area 4 years ago, but still doesn't show up on Google Maps.



It's actually a fairly nice roundabout too. It has a very nice circular garden in the centre and pedestrian crossings on all sides to service the nearby trails. The intersection is relatively busy and handles a lot of turning vehicles like haljackey mentioned. Fountain Street heads East to downtown Preston while Blair Road heads South to downtown Galt; both major centres in Cambridge.

I've biked, bused and been driven through this roundabout hundreds of times and I've never seen any traffic hiccups. I've never experienced a major arterial roundabout, but I love how smoothly these smaller roundabouts can flow.

Roundabouts are definitely another leaf London could take out of KW's book.

^I'm assuming that, since this shot is old, that area is now built up with subdivisions, and when traffic increased, they built a roundabout rather than upgrade it with a traffic light.

This could potentially be utilized in some of London's crumbling, urban/rural fringe intersections like Hamilton and Commisioners, Col. Talbot and Southdale, and many intersections along Sunningdale.

[haljackey]

Here's an interesting article from the London Free Press on Saturday. You might enjoy the read:

City roads lack planning

I have a question for our city mothers and fathers and our “best of the best” city managers.

Why is it that most cities where I have travelled build major roads with two lanes in each direction, right and left turn lanes at intersections, and cutouts for bus stops? They also make sure sewers are installed and curbs, gutters and street lights are properly placed.

Then they allow subdivisions to be built.

In comparison, London allows subdivisions to be built and then decides to widen the roads. They have to tear up all the sewers, curbs, gutters and streetlights and then re-do everything. This has to cost far more in the long run than doing things properly in the first place.

A good example of this is currently on Southdale Rd. between Wharncliffe and Colonel Talbot roads.

We seem to plan for the present and build for the past.

Barry Brownlee

London


I like his example of Southdale Road. Counciler Paul Van Meerbergen calls that road a "cow path" and I have to agree with him. At least widen that road between Warncliffe and Wonderland for the time being... then focus on the Colonel Talbot section afterward.

Then again Barry (the author) is pretty much describing your average arterial in suburbia, not really the most original concept... But it beats what we currently have lol!

[MolsonExport]

Epitomizes what is ass-backwards. I know that developers contribute greatly to city coffers. But it must be far more expensive to upgrade roads (not to mention, more time consuming) when the traffic volume is double/triple etc. There doesn't seem to be any consideration of LTC busses effects on piling up traffic. Those things curb every 100 metres, effectively blocking a lane for minutes at a time.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Then again Barry (the author) is pretty much describing your average arterial in suburbia, not really the most original concept... But it beats what we currently have lol!

I know for a fact former Councillor Sandy Levin was a proponent of building roads and waiting to widen them until they were at or beyond capacity. That's how we ended up with a two-lane Oxford West extension; back in the mid-90s the City had intentions of a six-lane extension.

The development of Wonderland Road South is an interesting case study on this practice in London. Around 1970 the City widened Wonderland to four lanes from Commissioners to what became Viscount Road, and built a two-lane diversion south to Southdale, then at the southern limits of the city, to meet up with what was then (Lambeth) Airport Road. Around 1982 Middlesex County widened their part of Wonderland Road to four lanes from Southdale to Highway 135. London left Wonderland with a short two-lane section until about 1988 between Viscount and Southdale - almost 20 years after Westmount first developed.

(I researched this previously using City of London documents and aerial photos at the UWO Map Library)

[haljackey]

I was driving on Wonderland this morning and noticed a new intersection being built between Southdale and Warncliffe. I thought it was just going to be another unnamed road that provides access to the crapload of big boxes there but it actually had a street name... Bradley Avenue.

It's just a tad to the south of where the Angelo's Bakery was.. and it looks like its going to be built to the side of the new Toys R Us. Perhaps the missing links will get filled soon?

[Simpseatles]

Originally Posted by haljackey

I was driving on Wonderland this morning and noticed a new intersection being built between Southdale and Warncliffe. I thought it was just going to be another unnamed road that provides access to the crapload of big boxes there but it actually had a street name... Bradley Avenue.

It's just a tad to the south of where the Angelo's Bakery was.. and it looks like its going to be built to the side of the new Toys R Us. Perhaps the missing links will get filled soon?

^My understanding is that the new subdivision being built behind the Power Centre, is building it's section of the road to link up with Wharncliffe. According to the cities map, it goes from Wharncliffe then goes west intersecting with a road into the subdivision, but ends before Wonderland. I goues it is going link up with Wonderland,but it still won't link up with where it ends in the east.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Bradley built in sections, with the extension from White Oak Road being built simmilarily by the subdivision.

It's gonna be great when it's done though, and with all the industrial development in the East, the residential in the West, I can see it becoming an important road, hopefully easing some traffic off of Southdale.

Speaking of that new power centre by Southdale/Wonderland, I heard that a couple more stores(ToysRus, HomeSense) moved out there, that used to be located between White Oaks Mall and the Wellington 8. It kinda grinds my gears, since now there's 2 huge stores that are gonna be vacant on our main gateway off the 401. Their location there made much more sense since they were by the mall and close to the highway. I guess since the buildings weren't brand new, or monstrously large, they decided to move?

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Simpseatles

I wouldn't be surprised to see Bradley built in sections, with the extension from White Oak Road being built simmilarily by the subdivision.

It's gonna be great when it's done though, and with all the industrial development in the East, the residential in the West, I can see it becoming an important road, hopefully easing some traffic off of Southdale.

The problem with Bradley, or roads in general, being built in sections is that their true potential is not utilized until the route is complete. In Bradley's case, this means people who use the stub near Warncliffe have to get onto other roads before getting back to Bradley. This puts pressure on the other roads and seriously impacts the efficiency of the network. While having it built in section is better than nothing, but take a look at the Free Press article posted above, our city seems to do too little too late. This is considerably frustrating in areas of the city that can grow but don't because the roads are already too congested.

Southwest London is going to grow like a weed once land in the north is consumed, and it has to be ready. By building/widening roads after growth has come, you'll create far more headaches at a far greater expense than if you were plan and anticipate that growth beforehand. The Southwest Area Plan has some good ideas, but I fear the completion of these projects will come much later than originally thought, and not all of them will be done.

For the short term this is what I think should be done.
-Southdale widened to 4 lanes between Warncliffe and Wonderland
-Bradley built between White Oak and Wonderland
-Wonderland Road / Highway 401 interchange

Mid term:
-Southdale widened to 4 lanes between Wonderland and Colonel Talbot
-Bradley built between Wonderland and Colonel Talbot
-Bradley widened to 4 lanes between Jalna and Wonderland
-Wonderland widened to 4 lanes between Exeter and Highway 402
-Wonderland Road / Highway 402 interchange expanded from Parclo A2 to A4.

Long term:
-Southdale widened to 6 lanes from Wonderland eastward
-Bradley built between Colonel Talbot and Westdel or proposed western expressway
-Bradley widened from Wonderland westward as needed
-Wonderland widened to 4 lanes from Highway 402 to Highway 401
-Wonderland widened to 6 lanes from Exeter northward
-Reconfigured intersections between Wonderland, Warncliffe and Exeter, potentially to a large rotary or traffic circle.
-White Oak and Digman widened as needed
-Potential partial interchanges on White Oak with the 401 and 402 would help relieve traffic on the Wellington and Wonderland junctions.

...Not to mention all the other road/infrastructure projects that also need to get completed like a new pumping station to serve the south end.



Now to get a bit off topic regarding big boxes on Wonderland:

Originally Posted by Simpseatles

Speaking of that new power centre by Southdale/Wonderland, I heard that a couple more stores(ToysRus, HomeSense) moved out there, that used to be located between White Oaks Mall and the Wellington 8. It kinda grinds my gears, since now there's 2 huge stores that are gonna be vacant on our main gateway off the 401. Their location there made much more sense since they were by the mall and close to the highway. I guess since the buildings weren't brand new, or monstrously large, they decided to move?

From my understanding the Toys R Us on Wellington will stay and the one on Wonderland has opened. HomeSense is open on Wonderland but will not return to Wellington.

It's really sad what you see on Wonderland compared to what's happened to Hyde Park and Fanshawe. Most of the stores here already had a home in Westmount Mall but decided to move out. This includes the LCBO and The Beer Store! What a huge waste of space! So much for being companies parading themselves on green and conservative... score one for car culture. Now not only do we have to drive from store to store, we've left Westmount a ghost town. At least in other locations like Hyde Park new stores have been built, they haven't simply moved a kilometer or two down the street.

[Simpseatles]

^Excellent Points!

Of coarse I would like to see the Bradley extension to Wonderland built at one time but that's wishful thinking. I mean how many new main roads has London actually ever completely built and not just widened or done the odd improvement. The only ones I can think of are Wonderland South, Highbury South, and VMP. Now I don't mean new routes going through the urban areas, but in the suburbs, some completely new arterial roads would have, and in the case of Bradly still can help curb suburban sprawl, encourage more commercial areas, and even public transit within walking distance of suburban homes.

It seems to me that when London builds new subdivisions, they don't think past the next 5 years. Maybe that has to do with the fact that the growth rate isn't GTA style, but many of these subdivisions I've seen start out as one little road with a sign on a country road, but then mushroom into a huge development, eventually taking up a large area from one former country road to another with no room left to build another main road through it, and instead just have some loopy secondary road.

Whereas in KW, it seems to me that the main roads are less spread apart and there are more that go through the suburban areas. That might just be because that's the way the country roads around it were planned, but in London, if you look at a map from 60 years ago, and look at it today I'm pretty sure all the same roads around the city would be there, that are now full of sprawl.


As for the Wonderland/Southdale development, it is just bad, in all senses of the word. I'll list the reasons why I despise it over any other big box development in London:

1.The stores on the west side, are located on what used to be a favourite place to go in the summer, Wally World! (I't aint the same at East Park!)
2.It helped in the downfall of Westmount. It was the nicest mall in London, no doubt (Underground parking, plenty of light, grand hallways).
3.The parking lots all face the road and it looks disgusting!
4.They currently don't have a Futureshop, Best Buy , or any kind of HMV type of store (That's the only reason I go shopping).

I don't think I will ever understand the reasoning behind these sprawling commercial disasters. In a time when suburban planning is being challenged more and more, I don't see why anyone would like these things over malls, especially in winter!

[Snark]

Originally Posted by haljackey

It's really sad what you see on Wonderland compared to what's happened to Hyde Park and Fanshawe. Most of the stores here already had a home in Westmount Mall but decided to move out. This includes the LCBO and The Beer Store! What a huge waste of space! So much for being companies parading themselves on green and conservative... score one for car culture. Now not only do we have to drive from store to store, we've left Westmount a ghost town. At least in other locations like Hyde Park new stores have been built, they haven't simply moved a kilometer or two down the street.

Companies will brand themselves as anything that they think will draw business. Capitalism in its purest form has no conscience - only an objective. It is a mindless machine that does as constructed.

The retail mobility trend is really a product of a much larger social shift in terms of retail capitalism and predicated on the evolution of technology. When modern, western-style market economies began to emerge half a millennium ago (yes, market economies existed much prior - but what we have more or less emerged out of the renaissance), retail centers were based in the centre of a town or city - equidistant to travel to for most customers. That didn't change much until after the second world war. The advent of mass automotive transportation drove urban sprawl, as people didn't have to live so close to the center of town any more to still be able to get there in a reasonable period of time to do business.

Given time, small, neighborhood convenience-type shopping plazas popped in the suburbs themselves to provide locals with the ability to get more mundane items and not have to travel to the core anymore. A great survivor from that era is at Wharncliffe/Commissioners - complete with the 50's style corrugated roof line. By the time that the late-60's and early 70's started, subdivisions more massive than anything ever done started developing a signifigant distance from the urban core. These were entire planned communities, with allocated schools, professional services, community centres and rec facilities, and the giant REGIONAL SHOPPING MALL at its core. Examples of this includes Oakridge, Westmount, White Oaks, and later Masonville. This acted as a disincentive for residents of the 'burbs to ever travel to the core, and is what destroyed the existing retail cores of most North American cities. In hindsight it was the natural byproduct of the proliferation of cheap personal transportation for the masses.

As the push for greater and greater profit margins grew in the 90's, retailers with enough clout refused the high rent of malls and went big box. The combination of very cheap to build and operate infrastructure (essentially a warehouse) that can be easily abandoned, coupled with the business model of selling huge numbers of the same or little-varied products of mediocre or low quality allowed for individual products to have a low price (thus bringing in the customers) and still allowing for huge profits for the company. This is the Wall-mart model and it has been astoundingly successful. One need only look to the migration of Ontario retailers Shoppers Drug Mart, LCBO. The Beer Store, Canadian Tire to name a few who have all migrated to the same business model in less than a decade. The result of this? The decline of the regional shopping mall, just as those malls had destroyed the downtown retailers 20 years earlier. Even old abandoned malls are being bought up on the cheap and converted to big box outlets (Great Canadian Superstore) to add insult to injury to the once dominant shopping mall.

Now, the online retailers are about to make a new push for a major market share. Will we see the death of big box facilities in 20 years from online retail? Probably not entirely, but they will likely become much less dominant just as some malls and downtown retail still survive and do well - but their numbers are greatly diminished. That said, online retail's profitability is much higher than even big box, with far far less infrastructure required than even the big-box model. Only major distribution nodes need be built and operated for shipping, and of course along with that is a requirement for far fewer staff. The only thing holding online shopping back is mass acceptance by the buying public. Once that happens, it will be all over for brick and mortar retail to be a dominant force in the urban landscape. It will rather become another element among many others.

This is the sort of conundrum that faces urban planners: how can one plan long-term for good urban development when social and technological trends might change the habits of the city's inhabitants in a span of decades? It's getting damn near impossible anymore in some cases. Would any planner of 10 years ago base their city vision on the fact that an ipad will now allow one to purchase an entire house full of furniture whilst sitting on a park bench over the lunch hour? Will retail commercial business as a dominant force in the urban landscape be spent in 50 years? Quite possibly - but hard to really know - even the "experts". It's too fractal.

The ironic thing is that the original victims of this - the downtowns - were forced to reinvent themselves as something not reliant on retail and are now crawling back to some success after 40 years. Perhaps the remainder of the city will have to do the same in another 20 or 30 years.

[Simpseatles]

^Wow! Very Interesting Snark.

Thanks for that brief history of North America's retail industry. The same thing has happened all over North America, and it helps to understand that London is a just another example of this evolution over time.

[haljackey]

I think we're a wee bit off topic here. But its very interesting... Perhaps you can discuss this somewhere else?

[MolsonExport]

Good synopsis, Snark.