Third Harbour Crossing

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by reddog794

However, the billion+ that would be earmarked for a third crossing, could easily be divvied up to replace the MacDonald, with a 6 lane bridge, and at least two more ferries, and expanded, all day service for both Dartmouth and Woodside.

Expanding the capacity of the MacDonald is one possibility but wouldn't it be cheaper just to build a second bridge next to it that has 3 - 4 lanes (build a twin bridge). Then the old MacDonald could be shut done and completely refurbished whenever necessary. This has been done in various cities including the QEW Skyway in Hamilton, Ontario http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burlington_Bay_James_N._Allan_Skyway.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by spaustin

I agree, about the LRT, but we should be keeping it in mind as we're not far from having the mass to start considering it. Our geography is such that it could probably work here earlier than in many other places. Many mid-sized European cities have extensive public transit systems. What we really should be focussing on here is adding ferry routes, building a bus system that is quick and maybe bringing back streetcars in some urban areas. The Metro Link system has performed really well and it's not even a full BRT. If you build it so that it's cost effective and quick, many people will ditch their cars. It's really sad though that despite the success and relatively cheap cost of Metro Link, years later we still don't have routes to Spryfield or Clayton Park. How much do you think we spent on road expansion during that time? We haven't even begun to seriously consider transportation options that don't involve a single driver in every car.

Streetcars aren't really any faster than buses (maybe even slower). An LRT or even BRT with Right of Way (ROW) would be a much better option. If there is an efficient rapid transit option then I am sure many people would ditch their cars in favour of rapid transit. However, it would have to be rapid transit and therefore streetcars are not the way to go (unless they are armour-plated and are allowed to ram through cars and intersections). There is a good reason why so many cities including Halifax have gotten rid of streetcars. Just having train tracks on streets doesn't translate into rapid transit.

If you ask people in the Toronto area what they think of the streetcar routes, I don't think that you will get a very positive response.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Expanding the capacity of the MacDonald is one possibility but wouldn't it be cheaper just to build a second bridge next to it that has 3 - 4 lanes (build a twin bridge). Then the old MacDonald could be shut done and completely refurbished whenever necessary.

Seems pointless unless you are somehow able to do something with North St.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by spaustin

Public transit deals with the 3 hour a day problem much more efficiently and cost-effectively.

If the capital cost is about the same as has been suggested I fail to see how it is any more cost effective. Plus you are forced to deal with the likes of Metro Transit and militant public sector unions to operate it, which they can only do poorly. Not everyone arrives at an office at 9AM and is chained to a desk all day. People need to move around to do their jobs. Our current traffic situation makes that very difficult.

We could also target commercial vehicles by building an inland terminal so that trucks don't have to come in and out of the Peninsula anymore.

CN has no interest in that so you are talking about establishing a company do convey those boxes by rail and the capital investment that would require. Good luck.

Your point? It's not like if a 3rd crossing were built we would suddenely be free of construction and other delays.

My point is simply that our existing network is obsolete and overloaded. The city has grown substantially since the MacKay was opened in 1970. The roads have not changed in that time. Something needs to be done to address that.

Now if we had a ferry terminal at Wrights Cove and others on the basin or at Purcells Cove with good transit connections and large park and ride facilities, those cross-town commuters could skip over the whole mess.

And if ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a helluva Christmas. How are you going to have good connections to take people to where they need to go in sprawly areas like those and others? You cannot.

These problems definitely aren't solvable though by increasing road capacity. We've tried that, it hasn't worked, it's not suddenly going to.

Pure socialist planning theory nonsense. If that were true there would be no roads anywhere except for buses. Even the communist Chinese have determined that a robust road network is essential for economic growth. Gives that old eastern European planning theory a real kick in the head.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Seems pointless unless you are somehow able to do something with North St.

True, that is why I think a second MacKay bridge would be the way to go with at least one LRT track (it would only take a train about 1-2 minutes to cross).

Rapid transit is an important way to increase capacity. It could be completely automated if work stoppages are a concern. Most large cities have LRT and heavy rail systems. Having an LRT system crossing the harbour would free up vehicle capacity on the bridges.

[spaustin]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

If the capital cost is about the same as has been suggested I fail to see how it is any more cost effective. Plus you are forced to deal with the likes of Metro Transit and militant public sector unions to operate it, which they can only do poorly. Not everyone arrives at an office at 9AM and is chained to a desk all day. People need to move around to do their jobs. Our current traffic situation makes that very difficult..

But the capital costs aren't the same. For a billion + you get one bridge with 4-6 lanes. If memory serves, the Bedford ferry, terminal and all, is pegged at $50 million. Again, if memory serves, setting up the Metro Link system cost somewhere between $10-20 million. So, for the same cost of building a bridge, we could have quite an extensive network of ferries and buses. True you have to pay employees to run it, but who do you think resurfaces the roadways? Pixies? When I said think what a billion could do for transit, I wasn't suggesting that you have to spend a billion regardless and therefore the options are equal. I was simply illustrating that there are more effective ways to use that amount of money.

Originally Posted by Keith P.

CN has no interest in that so you are talking about establishing a company do convey those boxes by rail and the capital investment that would require. Good luck..

True. CN has no interest and maybe right now the idea isn't feasible as a result. Doesn't hurt to think about the possibilities though. Things change.
Trying to get trucks in and out of Downtown Halifax is a problem and rail would be the most efficient way to deal with it.

Originally Posted by Keith P.

My point is simply that our existing network is obsolete and overloaded. The city has grown substantially since the MacKay was opened in 1970. The roads have not changed in that time. Something needs to be done to address that..

The same could be said for Metro Transit. The Woodside ferry was added in 1985, more than 20 years ago. Our bus network probably hasn't grown all that much either.

Originally Posted by Keith P.

And if ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a helluva Christmas. How are you going to have good connections to take people to where they need to go in sprawly areas like those and others? You cannot..

We're talking about hypotheticals here. We don't have a third bridge right now either last time I checked. The Bridge Commission has plans, but so does Metro Transit. It wouldn't be that hard to hook terminals up to the existing road network. New ferry terminals would capture vehicle traffic before it hit the chokepoints. Purcells Cove and Eastern Passage would be perfect for that. The Bedford Highway is of course problematic, but getting into a terminal along there would still save people time since they wouldn't have to get across on the MacKay or try and get down Magazine Hill. Even better would be a bus rapid transit route into the terminal so that commuters who caught a bus near their home could skip pass the congestion.

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Pure socialist planning theory nonsense. If that were true there would be no roads anywhere except for buses. Even the communist Chinese have determined that a robust road network is essential for economic growth. Gives that old eastern European planning theory a real kick in the head.

A robust road/rail network is key to economic growth. Goods need to move around. Roads, however, are also very inefficient when they get filled up by vehicles that are carrying 1 person each. It's well established that as you expand the road network, areas that weren't developable become attractive. Adding capacity without thinking it through just creates sprawl, wiping out any short-term traffic improvement. Public transit moves so many more people than a car. If done right, it can't be beat for efficiency and cost-effectiveness. If we weren't facilitating growth out in the burbs by all the road spending, perhaps the vacant space on the Peninsula and in old Dartmouth would have been filled in long ago, creating a more vibrant city that is also cheaper to operate.

[hfxtradesman]

How about we just build more family highrises downtown and stop urban sprawl. Don't we want to reclaime our downtown?

[MonctonRad]

The geography of the metro Halifax region makes any solution to the traffic congestion problem very challenging and I think whatever plan that develops will have to use a multifactorial approach.

Everyone who has posted recently has valid points. We need to provide alternatives for the automobile while at the same time recognizing that there are valid reasons why people sometimes have to use their car. A good quality highway system therefore remains a must.

Tolling vehicular access to the peninsula is not an option. It would discourage casual visitors and would be a disincentive for business. Psychology is important. Here in Moncton there is a major debate going on about cars being booted in private downtown parking lots. There is lots of public on-street parking but the booting issue is frightening people away and is hurting downtown business. Tolls in Halifax would do the same thing.

I have always thought that the concept of a third bridge extending across the harbour from the southern end of the Circumferential Highway was attractive. The main issue of course is "what do you do with the traffic when it hits the peninsula". The deep southenders would be none too pleased to see their leafy streets suddenly clogged with traffic thus requiring a diversion of traffic flow directly to the waterfront area. The streets there unfortunately are very narrow and would be unable to accomodate much increase in volume. Sadly therefore I conclude that the third bridge is not a viable option.

You do need to get truck traffic off of the downtown streets. I therefore remain a proponent of relocating Halterm. It has no business being on the peninsula. As Spaustin has pointed out, perhaps it could be relocated to the Dartmouth shore somewhere or maybe into the basin.

Relocating Halterm would free up oodles of prime land for future development. It would also allow the CN line to be used for LRT or commuter rail service (or a combination) to the downtown.

This is where I see the answer to Halifax's transit dilemma. You need to get commuters off the road so that the highways can be used by tourists, shoppers and delivery vehicles. The rail cut provides for (more or less) direct access to the downtown core. There could be several lines converging on the rail cut from the commuter watershed. One line for example could start in Sackville (with a park 'n ride), with stops in Bedford, at Chinatown, Fairview, Mumford, South Street (for the universites) and then at the VIA station. If we are talking purely about LRT, the line could be extended further along the waterfront to historic properties or even all the way to DND, the shipyard and around the peninsula. There are many possibilities......

Bus service needs to be enhanced as well. There are many places on the peninsula that would be inaccessible to an LRT but bus routes could be focussed on delivering passengers to LRT stations. Express bus routes to the downtown could be enhanced.

Peter Kelly likes fast ferries and while I am not opposed to the idea, I find it difficult to believe that they would be able to deliver large quantities of commuters to the downtown core. This would be better accomplished with rail.

Any solution to Halifax's traffic woes will have to be multifactorial. Look at Toronto with it's subway, streetcars, busses, commuter rail and proposed LRT to the airport. In Halifax, the existing highway system will have to be maintained and optimized (without access tolls), the bus and existing ferry system enhanced and most importantly, Halterm relocated and the existing rail right of way utilized for LRT and/or commuter rail. A third bridge is (sadly) probably not an option.

[fenwick16]

MonctonRad, you have some good points, however, the southern bridge was only one option. The third bridge could be a twin MacKay bridge in the North End. Another option was a two lane BRT only tunnel - they might as well make this LRT. It might make sense to have this is the southend - then there isn't all the additional road infrastructure to worry about.

PS: It seems like a lot of the focus for LRT and heavy rail has been the Bedford area. It seems like an LRT system would be more suitable in the high density areas of Halifax and Dartmouth.

[Haliguy]

I cross the harbour every day to go to work in Dartmouth and something needs to be done because it is a traffic nightmare . This morning traffic was backed up way passed Burnside Dr going to Halifax..just crazy..thank god I was going the other way....lol

[fenwick16]

I would like to see the federal and provincial governments spend about $2 billion on the Halifax/Dartmouth area for LRT/subway and a twin MacKay Bridge. The NS deficit has been around 12.5 - 13 billion for such a long time, I think the NDP should splurge on major infrastructure expenditures to get the Halifax area up to the 21st century. Look at what the last 2 bridges did for the Halifax area. I think a LRT/subway system plus second MacKay bridge would have a similar effect (although a LRT crossing close to the Halifax and Dartmouth downtown might be better).

They should also go ahead with a northwest arm bridge/ rail cut roadway (even without a southern crossing). These large infrastructure programs can have a huge effect on creating jobs. Most of the population growth in Nova Scotia over the next 20 - 30 years will likely be in the HRM. It would be best to keep these people in Nova Scotia. While they are at it, they should just throw in an outdoor stadium. Although, many will be against spending so much money, this is what many large cities seem to do - spend, spend, spend. As long as their populations keep growing then it can be justified. (a bit like a pyramid scheme - maybe there is an economic term for it).

[something_witty]

It seems like everyone who does not agree with a third crossing lives in Halifax.
I travel everyday from Halifax, to work in Dartmouth, and it is always busy on North St. It's tolerable in the morning, however driving from Dartmouth to Halifax at 4PM can be a nightmare, having 5 lanes merging in to one is just not working.
This has been getting worse and worse over time. I have only worked on this side for 3 years and have noticed it change overtime.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by something_witty

It seems like everyone who does not agree with a third crossing lives in Halifax.
I travel everyday from Halifax, to work in Dartmouth, and it is always busy on North St. It's tolerable in the morning, however driving from Dartmouth to Halifax at 4PM can be a nightmare, having 5 lanes merging in to one is just not working.
This has been getting worse and worse over time. I have only worked on this side for 3 years and have noticed it change overtime.

I have noticed the same thing.

[Wishblade]

Im a rush hour bridge traveller who lives in Dartmouth and works in Halifax. Some days crossing the MacDonald are absolutely terrible. I can't even imagine what it will be like in 10-20 years if no major improvements were made.

[Phalanx]

I don't doubt that it's getting more difficult to cross the bridge during peak hours, but the question is could/would more people use public transit to cross if the system was improved?

I know it's simply not possible for some, but I suspect a lot of people commuting to work by car do so by choice, not by necessity. That may be a perfectly valid choice - public transit can be less than speedy/reliable/comfortable/convenient, but if those issues were addressed, would more people make use of it? And if so, would that relieve pressure on the crossings in any significant way?

[-Harlington-]

i could see halterm moving to eastren passage area or burnside area, ,
and would it be possible just to widen both bridges ?

[Phalanx]

I seem to recall it being said that the MacDonald was at its weight limit after the last additions. No idea bout the MacKay.

[reddog794]

If the bridges were rebuilt, we could rise the height to allow post panamax ships into the basin, and just expand Ceres up along towards Chinatown.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by reddog794

If the bridges were rebuilt, we could rise the height to allow post panamax ships into the basin, and just expand Ceres up along towards Chinatown.

What do you do during the time that they are being rebuilt? It would be a traffic nightmare.

[Keith P.]

One anecdotal note about how traffic has grown. In my first job out of university in 1979 I was located in Burnside while living on the peninsula. It was no problem at all for the commute going to Dartmouth in the AM and going to Halifax in the PM using the MacKay. My memory of that time is that Halifax bound traffic in the AM (which I was going against) was heavy but moving. Coming to Halifax in the evening was a breeze. Contrast that to now where you have Halifax-bound traffic in the evening that is as heavy as morning rush hours. There is no doubt in my mind that something needs to happen soon.

As for transit options, there really is no way that transit can effectively serve places like Burnside. It is not set up for walking which is always required when you are dealing with that type of industrial park setup.