WPG to become an NHL city again?

[Boreal]

I would support a new NHL franchise in Winnipeg to the ends of West Portage and North Main, but I don't think Winnipeg is a feasible market at all, in a league with a steadily rising cap, that plain and simple, we just can't compete with. I believe Calgary and Edmonton needed playoff runs just to stay out of the red.

In a perfect world, Winnipeg is doable. Yes, the southern markets suck, and expansion would only be done, because the proceeds would go directly to line the pockets of the existing owners (majority of which are American). The NHL doesn't need relocation or expansion. It needs to downsize. The NHL is not a major sport any more. In Canada, sure, it is #1, but in the USA it is an embarassment to mention hockey on the same level as basketball, baseball and football.

The talent level in the NHL is very poor, or at least, spread thin over 30 teams. Contract to 24 and watch your fortunes improve.

No matter which way I spin my equation, Winnipeg is never a part of it. I hope I am wrong, but right now, I would suggest Winnipegers throw more of their support behind the Blue Bombers, because for the forseeable, and possibly lengthy future, that is the only real "professional" team we will have.

[Sammy]

Originally Posted by Mikemike

The fact that US cities who really don't give a rats ass about hockey but want a pro team (ANY pro team) are seen as more viable than winnipeg or hamilton for NHL is retarded.

You have a point - however, one example that I will draw a paralell from deals with the CFL. Once the Colts left Balitmore for Indianapolis, the city desperately wanted a pro football franchise - even the CFL. You know the story -
Baltimore had a CFL team for one year, won the Grey Cup and then got rid of the team the next year because support for the CFL in the Grey Cup winning town of Baltimore measured somewhere near the bottom of the ocean. There were about 5,000 diehard fans but even those who lustily cheered thier team on, were no match for hard numbers and prestige that the Ravens could bring to the table, years later. If memory serves me well there was Las Vegas and another city that were also involved. The fact is pro sports - is a large market world wide. ESPN 1,2,3 and 4 is full of them. Its entertainment and the NHL has some cache, even in the US.

Will the NHL compete with the main sports in the states, such as Nascar and the NFL? No. Do some American cities still covet a NHL franchise? Yes. Just like some in Toronto would love to have an NFL team.

Winnipeg and Hamilton are not on the radar except in Winnipeg and Hamilton for certain things. And that statement isn't meant to offend its just a reality of the market size and economic viability of the markets. Calgary's boom economy, for instance, and its 1.2 Million CEA population ($$ to spend) was recently noticed by international investors, in teh last couple of years, in areas that traditionaly went to Toronto or Vancouver. $$$ and population base play a huge role. To get noticed you typically need to have a million people in the immediate area and a significant number of people who have $$$.

Rabid and enthusiastic fans are one thing - $$$ is another. I do appreciate your vigor and enthusiam and know that it would be a huge blow to Calgary if the Flames left town, so I do understand the emotion that may be involved.

[BlackRedGold]

Originally Posted by Sammy

You have a point - however, one example that I will draw a paralell from deals with the CFL. Once the Colts left Balitmore for Indianapolis, the city desperately wanted a pro football franchise - even the CFL. You know the story -
Baltimore had a CFL team for one year, won the Grey Cup and then got rid of the team the next year because support for the CFL in the Grey Cup winning town of Baltimore measured somewhere near the bottom of the ocean. There were about 5,000 diehard fans but even those who lustily cheered thier team on, were no match for hard numbers and prestige that the Ravens could bring to the table, years later.

Actually Baltimore left the CFL because they knew the NFL was returning and they didn't like their chances. Baltimore was either first or second in CFL attendance during their two years in the league.

[SHOFEAR]

whoaaaaaaa........ Hold on a second

Overall, Baltimore had strong dedicated ownership, experienced CFL personnel and players, which made it the most successful American team in the CFL, especially when they became the 1995 Grey Cup champions. Unlike the rest of the American teams in the CFL, the Baltimore Stallions had a strong fan base and had strong attendance numbers averaging 37,347 in 1994-which ranked first in the CFL and 30,112 in 1995-which ranked second in the CFL.

from wiki

Not only do you not know how many years Baltimore was in the CFL, your theory on their attendance was grossly wrong.

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by SteveP

I think you've just help support their arguments. Personally, I believe Winnipeg could support an NHL team today in the current circumstances.

In the case of Edmonton and Calgary struggling a few ago, you have to consider that if those cities with almost double the population and more potential for corporate money barley hung on, then what would happen to Winnipeg in the same situation.

Winnipeg would be greatly support a team for a while regardless of whether the team did well or not. The tough part would be down the raod a few years and the team wasn't playing well, or if the dollar dropped, or if the salary cap went up.

May I remind you Winnipeg has a much larger corporate community than Edmonton and Ottawa. Its not the number of large corporations which is holding a Winnipeg back from the NHL.

Manitoba capital region is near 800,000 people, so I don't see where you could possibly get double the population out of a two Alberta cities which have just barely reached the million mark.

As far as Alberta's strong economy.. well its very strong today, but as everyone knows Alberta is a boom bust economy. What you see today will be gone tommorow. Its an extremely unstable economy, but if you want to hand your arguement on the price of oil.. go ahead.

The bottom line.. Winnipeg is definately among the top hockey markets in the world. The world juniors held in Grand Forks were sold out, due purely to the massive wave of Manitoban hockey fans... on the top of the IIHF's list of city's which have proven it cn handle large ticket hockey events... with a top of the line venue.

The only... and I do mean only reason Winnipeg may not get a team is the MTS centre was not built with future demand in mind. It is an amazing arena.. full of excellent amenities... but 2500 seats too small.

If it could be expanded by that many it would almost be a shoe-in, but as I have been told it isn't possible, due to its tight location.

[fortroad]

Originally Posted by sky_Winnipegger

Well, it isn't always fun to watch other cities stuggle with its issues... sports or non sports issues... but it's not very classy to complain about it.

I can find/list a lot of things about NY city that I don't like. You want to talk about painful to watch...???

So please don't try to step on Winnipeg b/c we are showing some civic pride.

Note
(this is my first post on this web-site... I have been reading this forum for at least of couple of years now... I enjoy the commentary very much... I never planned on ever posting... but I think it is time more Winnipeggers stand up for Winnipeg. The reality is that Winnipeg is a better place to call home then many other cities. So when I saw the above comment, I just had to push back...)

thanks

I love reading things like this, Winnipeg is one of the best cities in North America. The city has a great feeling and a unique character.

[viperred88]

without reading everyones post here but will later

the truth is if and when we get an NHL franchise we can add an additional 12 private/luxury suites and more room for the broadcast section

[Jay in Cowtown]

Can anyone in Winnipeg please explain to the rest of us why you built a top notch arena, in hopes of one day luring in another NHL club... with only 15 000 seats? it really doesn't make sense, and I hope to hell it don't screw you out of a future team.

[Jay in Cowtown]

Originally Posted by BlackRedGold

You've got a lot of things mixed up there. Maybe more people in the US watch bowling on TV then they do hockey on NATIONAL TV but overall viewship of hockey in the US, as a whole, is much higher then bowling. In the US, hockey is a regional sport and regional broadcasts in many markets have very respectable numbers. Unfortunately all you ever hear about is the national numbers which is misleading since, in many markets, Americans will watch hockey but it has to have the home team playing.

Very good point... I'm an avid Flames fan, and make sure I catch every game all season long on T.V., but besides the odd Oil or Canucks game... I couldn't give a shit if I see any other games... especially that Leaf fest every Saturday night on that channel my taxes pay for!

[Boreal]

I've made it clear that I stand in the official opposition camp of the NHL's triumphant return to Winnipeg, but an additional 12 boxes to those already in existence, less the 2,500 seats isn't monumental. As I believe TV has already pointed it, assuming all those 2,500 tickets were sold every night, it would only be an additional $2-3 million, due to them being 300 level seats only. $2-3 million is substantial, no question, but is that the make or break figure, I'm not so sure. A small arena generates demand, and for Tuesday nights against San Jose, 17,515 (current MTS Centre plus 2,500 seats) may not even be attainable in the post-honeymoon period.

Not trying to flip sides on my arguement, but simply posing the question - are the or lackethereof an additional 2,500 seats a key deterrent from the NHL in Winnipeg. Wtih that ...I know 2,500 is impossible, but how about 500? Or is 1 not even an option?

Anyways, again, I would love to see the NHL return, but I don't expect it in my lifetime.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown

Can anyone in Winnipeg please explain to the rest of us why you built a top notch arena, in hopes of one day luring in another NHL club... with only 15 000 seats? it really doesn't make sense, and I hope to hell it don't screw you out of a future team.

Some days I wonder if it was intentional. It's somewhat understood that an AHL franchise is basically an easy way to mint money, and an NHL franchise is a very easy way to lose money.

The paranoid cynic in me wonders if Chipman didn't build MTS Centre "just a bit small" on purpose, to ensure his personal goldmine doesn't ever leave. As I understand it, he either owns or has direct control over the arena, so he pretty much has the final say in an NHL franchise. What a great way to ensure the "success" of your AHL franchise, by having the ability to say "whoops, sorry, we'd love an NHL franchise, but the place is just a bit too small".

I've seen Winnipeggers comment to this effect and I'm reading between the lines a bit; feel free to correct me as I'll fully admit that I haven't followed the soap opera for a few years now.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown

Can anyone in Winnipeg please explain to the rest of us why you built a top notch arena, in hopes of one day luring in another NHL club... with only 15 000 seats? it really doesn't make sense, and I hope to hell it don't screw you out of a future team.

chipman held the line that he confered with the NHL before construction and that they claimed 15 000 was acceptable...not sure if he did or not, but it sure was a stupid mistake.

i am not sure the AHL is the goldmine people think it is....even for concerts and stuff you would think 16 000 would be better...who builds a 15 000 seat arena?.....its either 17 or 9, not 15.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Some days I wonder if it was intentional. It's somewhat understood that an AHL franchise is basically an easy way to mint money, and an NHL franchise is a very easy way to lose money.

The paranoid cynic in me wonders if Chipman didn't build MTS Centre "just a bit small" on purpose, to ensure his personal goldmine doesn't ever leave. As I understand it, he either owns or has direct control over the arena, so he pretty much has the final say in an NHL franchise. What a great way to ensure the "success" of your AHL franchise, by having the ability to say "whoops, sorry, we'd love an NHL franchise, but the place is just a bit too small".

I've seen Winnipeggers comment to this effect and I'm reading between the lines a bit; feel free to correct me as I'll fully admit that I haven't followed the soap opera for a few years now.

I've said the same things numerous times. He also gets to say he investigated the feasibility but the numbers didn't work out, so in the mean time support the moose (allowing him to make serious coin). If you ask me, the man is a genious.

It's just too much of a coincidence. If he was serious he would have waited a couple years until the CBA was finished to see what kind of landscape it was.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by trueviking

chipman held the line that he confered with the NHL before construction and that they claimed 15 000 was acceptable...not sure if he did or not, but it sure was a stupid mistake.

i am not sure the AHL is the goldmine people think it is....even for concerts and stuff you would think 16 000 would be better...who builds a 15 000 seat arena?.....its either 17 or 9, not 15.

But thats the beauty of it. He can attract the concerts and events that any larger barn can, but too small to be able to hold an NHL team.

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

But thats the beauty of it. He can attract the concerts and events that any larger barn can, but too small to be able to hold an NHL team.

I fear you may be right.

[trueviking]

i wonder how profitable the AHL really is...it would be interesting to know the numbers....they are making whacks of money off concerts thats for sure.

[drew]

Originally Posted by trueviking

i am not sure the AHL is the goldmine people think it is....even for concerts and stuff you would think 16 000 would be better...who builds a 15 000 seat arena?.....its either 17 or 9, not 15.

I am sure if the only thing holding back Winnipeg from the NHL was an extra 2000 seats, any potential owner *could* conceivably remedy that in the MTS Centre.

I know that it has been mentioned that it can't be expanded beyond it's current size - but money talks, and if the cash is put up, I don't doubt that anything is possible.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by trueviking

i wonder how profitable the AHL really is...it would be interesting to know the numbers....they are making whacks of money off concerts thats for sure.

I'd also like to know. The AHL might not be that profitable as a whole, but I have a very stong feeling Winnipeg would be one of the tops in the league.

MTS center was built with all private money right? If Chipman footed that bill (which is pretty unheard of in NA sports) knowing his tenants were going to be AHL and concerts i'd feel pretty comfortable saying he's making a good profit.

[Distill3d]

so hey, for a second lets put money, profits, marketing, all that aside and get back to what actually important about hockey, the game and its fans.

every day i walk down the street and see at least 100 people wearing a Jets T-Shirt, Jersey or Hat. and thats in calgary. I went to Winnipeg for the Grey Cup and i saw Jets swag all over the place. Winnipeggers are passionate about their hockey. in 2004-05, the Moose averaged 8,626 fans during the regular season, and 9,568 during the playoffs.

so, in my opinion, if they can pull that off for a farm team for the *shudders* Vancouver Canucks why couldn't they do that for the NHL?

who gives a damn if Las Vegas, Houston, Mexico City, Kansas City or even Honolulu has more people then Winnipeg? who cares if there isn't that many corporate head offices? who even cares if MTS has 15,000 seats and that maybe too small for NHL standards, Winnipeg Arena was way out of date anyways, and wasn't that part of the reason they left town? who cares if the team won't rake in revenue dollars like the Rangers, Habs, or Leafs?

Originally Posted by newflyer

The way the NHL is falling apart these days the league needs Winnipeg much more then Winnipeg needs the league

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by trueviking

chipman held the line that he confered with the NHL before construction and that they claimed 15 000 was acceptable...not sure if he did or not, but it sure was a stupid mistake.

i am not sure the AHL is the goldmine people think it is....even for concerts and stuff you would think 16 000 would be better...who builds a 15 000 seat arena?.....its either 17 or 9, not 15.

Basically you build a 15,000 seat arena when your economic analysis shows that 12,000 is what would work best but, having planned for that, you're pressured by NHL dreamers into adding just enough to reach the minimum that the NHL might conceivably accept.