Is Ottawa the City that Fun Forgot?

[Urbanarchit]

Don't quite get this sentiment. It sounds a lot like the old "the place is so crowded, no one goes anymore". The Market is crowded exactly because it is interesting and pleasant to walk through.

Are you sure about that? Are you sure that it's full of locals or perhaps mostly by tourists? I find that off-seasons the ByWard Market is sparsely populated. On Tuesday last week I went with a friend to a restaurant on Dalhousie and at around 15h30 we were walking from Rideau to York through the Market on a day that was sunny and not too cold, and there were few people there (a nice day and no one was there).

If it's interesting and pleasant to walk through, I'd expect more locals would be out and about there, but sadly off-season the Market is quite empty save for a few people walking around.

I don't disagree with your idea for more pedestrianization, but it's not like the whole place needs to be drastically changed. The proof is in its popularity. On one hand we are complaining about the lack of energy and buzz in the city, and in the next breath we are saying an area that clearly has energy and buzz is too crowded.

Who says the Market is too crowded? I find that any buzz there is because of the tourists.

No and no. There is pretty much as a big concentration of good restaurants as you will find anywhere, as well as a tonne of great patios, great sports bars etc. Locals make up the vast majority of people visiting.

I disagree. Many of those restaurants are owned by the same people have offer crap that duped tourists eat because they don't know any better. There are still some good restaurants, but there are few that are actually worthwhile. If someone were to ask me about restaurants to go to in Ottawa, I don't point them to the ByWard Market.

Vendor stalls remind you of developing countries? They remind me of farmers' markets.

What markets do you know of that stay open later than that? You have to be a bit realistic about the hours people are likely to shop at markets. And in any event, the Market is working on changing that.

I'm not talking just about the vendor stalls, nor was I talking about them not staying open late. The stores beside the malls closed at around 6 on a weekday during the summer, and the garage doors and not-well maintained buildings coupled with the dirty stalls and cars parked willy-nilly along them looked right out of a slum. A closed Parkdale Market looked much more pleasant than what I saw.

A bit drastic I would say. I've never heard this sentiment expressed, either by locals or visitors that I'm showing around town. On the other hand, I've heard countless positive comments on that area of the city.

Before demanding drastic change, I think we have to take an honest look at the positives we have to work with.

I don't see too many positives in the market, to be honest. All that it is is car-filled, full of some old buildings and either ugly/ tacky others or vacant lots where buildings were torn down, tourist trap with few attractive things to do and many trucks, aggressive homeless people, drunk or high people.

The market only has a few gems, but most of it requires a lot of work that should happen.

[Acajack]

Am I allowed to see the Byward Market as BOTH

a vibrant, attractive and interesting urban neighbourhood that not every city in Canada and the US can boast about having

AND

an area that is greatly overrated by many Ottawans

????

[bikegypsy]

People can piss and shit on it as much as they want... I love it. This is where I got my first job and went on to work with great chefs; I got to meet rock stars as well as famous actors and authors there; I sold t-shirts there, developed my business skills and made a ton of money. To me, it is one of the great districts of the world.

[phil235]

[QUOTE=defishel;6512180]

Are you sure about that? Are you sure that it's full of locals or perhaps mostly by tourists?

You seem to be very reliant on impressions, rather than objective sources of information. Do you have any basis for saying most visitors to the area are tourists?

This report isn't perfect, but it details the contacts with "ambassadors" during the day during the peak summer months. Though this type of contact would clearly lean heavily towards tourists, only 41% of contacts were tourists. That number would obviously be much lower the rest of the year. I think that it's safe to say that a large majority of visitors to the Market are locals:

http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/cit.../item5atta.pdf

If it's interesting and pleasant to walk through, I'd expect more locals would be out and about there, but sadly off-season the Market is quite empty save for a few people walking around.

Given that the area supports nearly 100 restaurants year round, I can pretty confidently say that a fairly significant number of local people are visiting at all times of the year.

I disagree. Many of those restaurants are owned by the same people have offer crap that duped tourists eat because they don't know any better. There are still some good restaurants, but there are few that are actually worthwhile. If someone were to ask me about restaurants to go to in Ottawa, I don't point them to the ByWard Market.

You may hold this opinion, but it is pretty easy to discredit on an objective basis. Off the top of my head, here is a list of restaurants that clearly fall into the "good" local category:

Domus, Murray Street, Eighteen, Side Door, Play, Courtyard, Social, Beer Brothers, Mezza Notte, Black Thorn, Das Lokal, Mangia, Fatboys Smokehouse, Khao Thai, Luxe, Navarra, Steak, Stella Osteria, The Smoque Shack, Vittoria Trattoria

Exactly how many do you want? If you can't find a good, interesting restaurant in the Market, you just aren't looking hard enough.

The stores beside the malls closed at around 6 on a weekday during the summer, and the garage doors and not-well maintained buildings coupled with the dirty stalls and cars parked willy-nilly along them looked right out of a slum.

I agree that the stores could stay open later. But I find your description to contain a fair bit of hyperbole.

I don't see too many positives in the market, to be honest. All that it is is car-filled, full of some old buildings and either ugly/ tacky others or vacant lots where buildings were torn down, tourist trap with few attractive things to do and many trucks, aggressive homeless people, drunk or high people.

It may not be your scene, but a whole lot of people seem to find it very worth visiting. And according the report I linked, a big majority come away with a positive impression.

I'm not saying that there is no room for improvement. I just have no time for this Ottawa disease of failing to see the huge positives that anyone coming from outside the city sees.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

To me, it is one of the great districts of the world.

Yep. I've travelled quite a bit, and agree wholeheartedly.

[OTSkyline]

I love the market. It has a special "scene" or "atmosphere" that can't be found everywhere else. It's UNIQUE. We complain about Ottawa having the ugliest most boring CBD and the rest of Ottawa just being suburbs and suburbs of the same swirvy roads with a shoppers at everycorner yet we have the Byward market!

I think the market does attract a lot of people, from its peak (in a nice summer weekend night) where the entire neighbourhood is packed, you have trouble walking on the sidewalk and EVERY restaurant and terrace are full with a 1h+ waiting list. Even last weekend, went there on a mid-day Sunday and there were still a lot of people wandering around, enjoying the place and the stalls... It's a great place even though it could use some improvements.

But hey, even Time Square could use some improvements. And that place also has its "dead" time.. Ive been there one day/morning last year and was shocked of how dead it was (might've had less than 100 people.

[Acajack]

[QUOTE=bikegypsy;6512398]People can piss and shit on it as much as they want... I love it. This is where I got my first job and went on to work with great chefs; I got to meet rock stars as well as famous actors and authors there; I sold t-shirts there, developed my business skills and made a ton of money. To me, it is one of the great districts of the world.[/QUOTE]

I like it too but one of the greatest in the world is a bit of stretch.

I looked it up in the Michelin green travel guide which I like to use as a reference of what is really worth seeing in the world. (Not talking about the red guide (hotels and restaurants) - I don't have that much money.

Three stars is a must, two stars is a near-must and one star is definitely worth it.

The Byward Market ranks as one star. Quincy Market in Boston gets two stars. Pikes Place Market in Seattle gets three stars. Most of the great squares in Europe like Grand'Place in Brussels or Piazza San Marco in Venice get three stars. Vieux-Montréal and Vieux-Québec also get three stars.

Ottawa as a destination gets three stars, and the individual attractions in the area that get three stars are the National Gallery, the Aviation Museum and the Museum of History/Civilization in Gatineau. Parliament gets two stars.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by ue

I hadn't realized it was that large, but I know one of the main reasons it was chosen as a capital was because it was equal distance between Toronto and Quebec City, the larger or more influential ends of the Canadas. Being right on the border between the two also helped. It was a neutral territory, so to speak.



Hmm...interesting. Thanks.



Well, it did have a history going back over a century as an important fur trading post, but I agree, it was still a dinky town in 1905.

Although I would say the initial booms of Edmonton were related to it being crowned the capital (and the university going directly across the river in the then-independent Strathcona), it hasn't been the case since the 1930s. The 1907-1914 boom is the only one I can think of that really only had to do with the increased attention it was getting as being the capital of a new province. By the 1930s, Edmonton was already being chosen as a major military centre, and then by 1947, oil was discovered in Leduc County.

So this idea that Edmonton wouldn't have amounted to much if it weren't the capital I don't buy, because it was significantly influenced by other factors both before and after it was crowned capital. One only needs to look 300km to the south, to Calgary, to see that you could still be big here without being the capital. And Calgary is even younger than Edmonton, being founded in 1884!

sorry about getting off topic...but just to clarify...

Edmonton wouldn't have amounted to much if it wasn't the capital... Ok fine. But Calgary wouldn't have amounted to anything if it wasn't for the political influence of choosing a southern route for the CPR to prevent American expansion north despite it being a much more difficult route.

For better or worse, Edmonton/Strathcona being home to most of Alberta's early political leaders and naming it the capital and home of the UofA and the picking the southern route are arguable the two biggest factors that laid the foundation for this province to have two large centers.

[phil235]

[QUOTE=Acajack;6512527]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

People can piss and shit on it as much as they want... I love it. This is where I got my first job and went on to work with great chefs; I got to meet rock stars as well as famous actors and authors there; I sold t-shirts there, developed my business skills and made a ton of money. To me, it is one of the great districts of the world.[/QUOTE]

I like it too but one of the greatest in the world is a bit of stretch.

I looked it up in the Michelin green travel guide which I like to use as a reference of what is really worth seeing in the world. (Not talking about the red guide (hotels and restaurants) - I don't have that much money.

Three stars is a must, two stars is a near-must and one star is definitely worth it.

The Byward Market ranks as one star. Quincy Market in Boston gets two stars. Pikes Place Market in Seattle gets three stars. Most of the great squares in Europe like Grand'Place in Brussels or Piazza San Marco in Venice get three stars. Vieux-Montréal and Vieux-Québec also get three stars.

Ottawa as a destination gets three stars, and the individual attractions in the area that get three stars are the National Gallery, the Aviation Museum and the Museum of History/Civilization in Gatineau. Parliament gets two stars.

I'm not sure I'd disagree with those area rankings, although I generally prefer the food and entertainment options in the Market to those in Old Montreal (with the exception of a number of Montreal's super-high end restaurants that we can't match). Vieux-Quebec being ranked higher is a no-brainer.

Not sure about the U.S. markets. Personally I found Quincy Market to be quite limited, but I expect that it gets its ranking partly due to its history and partly due to the Aquarium that is there.

And in that vein, I was actually going to say that I would consider the National Gallery to be a Market attraction. Certainly a lot of people visit the two in tandem. And it beats the hell out of the NE Aquarium. (My wife drags me to every aquarium she can find, so I have a well-developed hate on for aquariums.)

Also, what other entertainment area has a Mint? Beat that Piazza San Marco.

[teej1984]

Originally Posted by bartlebooth

While there are many nights that are still pretty dead and streets quiet, things are getting better. I went to a great live music event on a Monday night last November when it was -20. It was part of the 'I Can't Believe It's Not...' music series - if you haven't heard of it, look it up. Super fun and an amazing night out. All-star casts of Ottawa musicians covering classic albums from start to finish. The night I went they did The Strokes album 'Is This It'. The venue was packed and full of energy. I remember thinking how different it felt for Ottawa. Obviously it is just one example, but these nights and events are happening and with increasing frequency. I'm finding there are more and more nights where multiple events are happening that I really want to go to. Probably laughable to most people from big, culturally diverse cities but it is an improvement for Ottawa and new in my experience of this city.

Wednesday night is one of the best nights to go out in Ottawa!!! Mercury Lounge Hump Night is simply FAAAABULOUS

[McC]

The Aviation Museum is a 3-star, eh? I haven't been in years, but would not have ranked it higher than Parliament or the War Museum...! Although given that you have to drive there, maybe it makes sense that a tire maker would appreciate it more?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by McC

The Aviation Museum is a 3-star, eh? I haven't been in years, but would not have ranked it higher than Parliament or the War Museum...! Although given that you have to drive there, maybe it makes sense that a tire maker would appreciate it more?

I agree about Parliament but to non-Canadian visitors I would think there are more things of interest to see than our country's legislature.

I mean, I would guess most wouldn't be moved by visiting the place where Pierre Elliot Trudeau uttered his famous "fuddle duddle"!

[gjhall]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I agree about Parliament but to non-Canadian visitors I would think there are more things of interest to see than our country's legislature.

I mean, I would guess most wouldn't be moved by visiting the place where Pierre Elliot Trudeau uttered his famous "fuddle duddle"!

I was a tour guide one summer on Parliament Hill, and I can tell you that anecdotaly, other than a pair of landwhales from the deep south who thought it was odd that they couldn't park their 60' RV on the Hill, most every person from abroad I met had a pretty similar reaction:
1) I can't believe we can just walk right up and touch it, wander the grounds, etc.
2) I can't believe it's free and there are tours everyday, ever 10 minutes on the peakiest of peak days.
3) The neo-gothic architecture is actually very unique, and everyone is highly impressed with it. Check TripAdvisor and look at reviews from people from overseas. It's pretty consistent.
4) Canadian history just isn't boring, sorry to dissapoint. The capital as compromise between two nations, bilingualism, the constitution, the story of the fire, the canal, etc are all very compelling for foreign visitors.
5) People fucking love Changing the Guard. I've never really understood this, but they REALLY love it.
6) Many foreigners were surprised they couldn't bribe me for tickets on full tours. I'd be a richer man if I had taken them.

Teenagers think its boring, but then again, its not a food court or Urban Outfitters store, so it's SOL.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by gjhall

I was a tour guide one summer on Parliament Hill, .

I once did that job too! Great fun and very interesting.

[Aylmer]

.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by McC

The Aviation Museum is a 3-star, eh? I haven't been in years, but would not have ranked it higher than Parliament or the War Museum...! Although given that you have to drive there, maybe it makes sense that a tire maker would appreciate it more?

Maybe the fine folks at Michelin were at YRO on this day:

http://members.rfc.ca/en/stories/DC9_Arrival_YRO

A DC9 jet arriving on a 3300ft runway, and stopping within 2000ft? Now THAT was fun.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I agree about Parliament but to non-Canadian visitors I would think there are more things of interest to see than our country's legislature.

Maybe I'm weird, but while I don't necessarily always tour them, I enjoy checking out these places when travelling to other capitals. Heck, I even took a day trip (first flight in, last flight out) from Sydney to Canberra some years ago in order to check out Australia's capital...just to say "I've been there". Their modern parliament building is interesting (I toured this one), but ours is all sorts of better.

Incidentally, they also have a pretty cool war museum/memorial, complete with a Lancaster. Their tomb of the unknown soldier(s) is also well done, although I don't think anything beats the one at Arlington in D.C.

[ue]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

sorry about getting off topic...but just to clarify...

Edmonton wouldn't have amounted to much if it wasn't the capital... Ok fine. But Calgary wouldn't have amounted to anything if it wasn't for the political influence of choosing a southern route for the CPR to prevent American expansion north despite it being a much more difficult route.

For better or worse, Edmonton/Strathcona being home to most of Alberta's early political leaders and naming it the capital and home of the UofA and the picking the southern route are arguable the two biggest factors that laid the foundation for this province to have two large centers.

I agree that Edmonton becoming capital and then getting the main university where huge boosts to the city. But the idea that Edmonton wouldn't have amounted to much, I'm not sure, that's all. I mean, it was still an important fur trading post for 100 years and in 1905 it had a comparable population to Calgary still. The Leduc oil discovery in 1947 would've still been there, which was ultimately a huger boon for the city and the province than being crowned capital. If it weren't for the discovery of oil, Edmonton and Calgary would be Saskatoon and Regina today.

[Mille Sabords]

[QUOTE=Acajack;6512527]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

I looked it up in the Michelin green travel guide which I like to use as a reference of what is really worth seeing in the world. (Not talking about the red guide (hotels and restaurants) - I don't have that much money.

Three stars is a must, two stars is a near-must and one star is definitely worth it.

The Byward Market ranks as one star. Quincy Market in Boston gets two stars. Pikes Place Market in Seattle gets three stars. Most of the great squares in Europe like Grand'Place in Brussels or Piazza San Marco in Venice get three stars. Vieux-Montréal and Vieux-Québec also get three stars.

Ottawa as a destination gets three stars, and the individual attractions in the area that get three stars are the National Gallery, the Aviation Museum and the Museum of History/Civilization in Gatineau. Parliament gets two stars.

Maybe it's time to update the Michelin Guide then. Being from France, I understand why they would have a bias toward Montréal and Québec City. I love both those places, but one star sounds low, in comparison, for the Market.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Maybe I'm weird, but while I don't necessarily always tour them, I enjoy checking out these places when travelling to other capitals. Heck, I even took a day trip (first flight in, last flight out) from Sydney to Canberra some years ago in order to check out Australia's capital...just to say "I've been there". Their modern parliament building is interesting (I toured this one), but ours is all sorts of better.

Incidentally, they also have a pretty cool war museum/memorial, complete with a Lancaster. Their tomb of the unknown soldier(s) is also well done, although I don't think anything beats the one at Arlington in D.C.

Hey, I am the same. Geez, two things in common now. If this keeps up we are going to end up being friends!

[YOWflier]

Come on now ... there's no need for the F-word.