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  #15961  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 3:59 AM
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Originally Posted by felixg View Post
Between this, the point, trying to move pro sports teams etc, I can’t help but wonder why the state always seems to be pulling this shit? Is it entirely politically motivated or does a bulk of the legislature actually have something to gain from other area’s growth? Also, to others that have lived elsewhere; is this kind of behavior prevalent in other states? I can’t think of another capital city that so consistently gets screwed by its own state. Not trying to be cynical, just wondering if there are more concrete reasons apart from trying to own the libs?
Two thoughts:

I wouldn't put anything past the idea of owning the libs. Salt Lake is the more prominent city in the state and it's dominated by Democrats.

But more importantly, and the real answer I think is this:

Salt Lake is a very small dot in the state. Utah has a population of 3.3 million people. Salt Lake City only has a population of 200,478 (or so). Salt Lake City's population is roughly six-percent of the state's the population.

Denver is double that compared to Colorado's overall population.

Las Vegas' population is 21% of Nevada's population.

That means they have a significant representation in the legislative branch.

Salt Lake City (itself) doesn't

I think there's like three or so state senators who actually live within Salt Lake.

A majority of the Utah senate is represented by people outside Salt Lake County and have no intention of caring about the core city. They don't take pride in downtown and certainly don't care if the Jazz play there or not. Which is remarkable because you'd think they would as it's the literal home to the LDS Church and most these legislators are Mormon.

It also doesn't help the governor has very limited connection to the actual city.

Spencer Cox was the mayor of Fairview, and then the Sanpete County Commission before being elected to the Utah House in a district dominated by Utah County.

Before Cox was Herbert, who was a Utah County man.

So, they have no history of investment in the city. It's a big reason I am kind of skeptical of Ryan Smith. He's never lived in Salt Lake City. He didn't grow up in Salt Lake City. He grew up in Oregon, I believe, and then went to BYU and has lived in Utah County all this time.

At least Larry Miller grew up on the city's west side and went to West High. Maybe that's why Gail is invested in building the MLB stadium in that area (probably not but still).

Regardless, it's clear the state sees an economic opportunity at the Point, which I can understand since it's prime real estate - but it shouldn't come at the expense of an already established core that, like it or not, will always be the focal point of the metro.
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  #15962  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 12:28 PM
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Great breakdown, Makid. I have to point out that it's "Silicon Slopes" not "Silicone Slopes". The latter is actually unintentionally hilarious and rather apt for the Provo MSA, if you know what I mean.
Atlas, good catch. This has been something that I have joked with a few members of the Silicon Slopes team and I didn't even realize that I typed it that way until your post
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  #15963  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 1:14 PM
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Comrade, you’re not convincing me to want to stay in Utah long term
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  #15964  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 3:20 PM
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I don't see the same degree of malice that some on here seem to perceive. I feel like Comrad points out the main reason the State acts the way it does: Salt Lake City is really only about 7% of the State's population. Most of the State Legislature does not represent Salt Lake City. Instead, they represent Sandy, Draper, South Jordan, Bountiful, Provo, St. George, Ogden, etc.

They represent what they perceive to be the interests of those communities, not Downtown Salt Lake, which is a fraction of even Salt Lake's population.

They are mostly representing what they think to be suburban interests rather than urban interests and their actions show this friction.

I don't think, for the most part, the Utah Legislature is acting against the interests of Downtown Salt Lake to 'own the libs' or because they hate democrats. Heck, several opponents of development projects in Utah are democrats.

Do I think legislators are wrong to incentivize projects like stadiums in the far-flung suburbs and not downtown? Yes, of course! But I understand they are trying to promote their own communities and what they think would help them.

I think we should be doing is pointing out the fact that a strong, growing, and successful urban core is CRTICAL to the continued strength and success of it's surrounding and dependent suburbs. This is especially true now in the 21st century as opposed to the urban flight of last century, as cities are more and more defined by their urban centers and are in a tough national and global competition of business, brains, and workers.

I actually think the majority of Utah's legislators understand this. Are there a few bad eggs? Sure. But I would contend they are not remotely the majority. However, most represent suburban and rural voters that do not understand planning principals, the importance of the urban core, the importance of increased density, why we have a housing shortage and how to solve it, etc. So many legislators, even if they understand, are answerable to constituents that don't. This dynamic does have an overall impact on decisions by the State. It is also a dynamic that virtually every other US State is grappling with at the moment, not just Utah. Is this a legit excuse for them opposing smart growth? Not at all. But I do understand it.

So I don't think the actions of the legislature is overall malicious, they are just doing what they think they need to do to get reelected and to represent their specific districts.

I support the project at The Point, not because I want there to be less development downtown, but because I think we need better examples of dense, smart growth development in the suburbs. If the project succeeds, it could help change perceptions of what density and lower level urbanism can mean for Utah. It would also put more legislative districts in more urbanized areas and could help change perceptions of the legislature in the future. I feel the same about the planned development of a downtown Daybreak. Just as the success and health of a city's core lifts all boats, the urbanizing and improvement of a core's existing suburban neighborhoods can help lift the core up as well.

That said, I do think things like a major league stadium or any other professional level stadium should be located in Downtown Salt Lake City or close by like The Power District, as projects like that genuinely benefit and feed off of the proximity of a downtown as opposed to being in the suburbs. I don't think Salt Lake needs these stadiums to succeed, but I do think it could be made even better by them.

Anyway, I'm rambling. This is just how I perceive it at least.

Last edited by Blah_Amazing; Jun 30, 2023 at 3:30 PM.
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  #15965  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 4:19 PM
locolife locolife is offline
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Originally Posted by TheGeographer View Post
Comrade, you’re not convincing me to want to stay in Utah long term
I left about 20 years ago, as a native I cheer for SLC and want it to do well but I’ve spent more of my life in PHX at this point and consider it home now. SLC and Utah have been hoping for a lot of things posted on this forum for most of my life, it could happen soon or it could be another lifetime before a lot comes to fruition. I didn’t leave because of urban development per se but overall didn’t feel like I fit the culture.

PHX has its own problems but generally I’m happy with being a bigger city market, although we still usually get lumped in as a small city sports market (I guess you need 10M in your metro to be big city). Yeah, the Yotes could end up leaving but the sheer fact that they’re now hard at work on 12 additional potential stadium/entertainment district sites says it all, despite nearly endless setbacks it’s hard to leave this market.

I think SLC can get there but I do see where downtown doesn’t get a ton of love from those in power, and that’s unfortunate. If you’ll be happy boils down to what you can be happy with, if you’re hoping for an Austinish level development, SLC probably won’t get you there. If 3-5 high-rises a decade works for you then you can probably be content.
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  #15966  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 4:26 PM
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Austin is an interesting case because most of the Texas legislature doesn't like urban things or Democrats either. However, I think it benefits from being the capital of a huge state with 3 other giant cities nearby, as well as being a college town and well-located on the river in Texas hill country.

SLC is a lot like Austin (university, state capital, red state) but without the 3 other big cities nearby.

But hey, our scenery is way better.
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  #15967  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 4:58 PM
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I think the fact that Salt Lake City is the capital and largest city in the state allows people to create a David vs Goliath narrative in their heads where they treat SLC like it's NYC. Politicians can say they are fighting for their constituents by pushing back against the evil Salt Lake City.
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  #15968  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 7:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Makid View Post
Atlas, good catch. This has been something that I have joked with a few members of the Silicon Slopes team and I didn't even realize that I typed it that way until your post
Man, this conversation is going down a very slippery slope.
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  #15969  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 8:36 PM
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I can’t reveal any names.. but as a freelance videographer I’m often contracted with a notable video studio in Ogden. We work with a LOT of politicians across the wasatch front, all of them (R)’s. Mainly senators, and just one in particular every election cycle. Trust me, they absolutely despise SLC and want to do nothing more than see the city lose more and more political and economic power. And yes, they want to “own the libs”. Goal number 1 though, always.. high personal financial gain for themselves and their real estate pals at the expense of everyone else.

Also an unfortunate reality.. as usual our electorate don’t care about solving any real pressing issues and would rather stop “wokeness”.
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  #15970  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 9:27 PM
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Reeder113 Reeder113 is offline
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Can we please talk about buildings and stuff, por favor? Twitter is always available if anyone wants to enter the sludge pit of political discourse.

Here are some buildings!



...courtesy of u/hudsonspayer420 on reddit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Development...h_astra_63023/
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  #15971  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 9:32 PM
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Oh yeah, that’s right. SLC threads are supposed to be dead. Let’s go back to talking about all the 2 buildings going up.

That’s a nice photo, though.
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  #15972  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Rileybo View Post
Oh yeah, that’s right. SLC threads are supposed to be dead. Let’s go back to talking about all the 2 buildings going up.

That’s a nice photo, though.
To be fair, if fun and interesting topics like professional sports and related development are banished to a different thread, so should boring politics discussion.
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  #15973  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 10:23 PM
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I say we keep as much talk as possible on one thread.
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  #15974  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Blah_Amazing View Post
I don't see the same degree of malice that some on here seem to perceive. I feel like Comrad points out the main reason the State acts the way it does: Salt Lake City is really only about 7% of the State's population. Most of the State Legislature does not represent Salt Lake City. Instead, they represent Sandy, Draper, South Jordan, Bountiful, Provo, St. George, Ogden, etc.

They represent what they perceive to be the interests of those communities, not Downtown Salt Lake, which is a fraction of even Salt Lake's population.

They are mostly representing what they think to be suburban interests rather than urban interests and their actions show this friction.

I don't think, for the most part, the Utah Legislature is acting against the interests of Downtown Salt Lake to 'own the libs' or because they hate democrats. Heck, several opponents of development projects in Utah are democrats.

Do I think legislators are wrong to incentivize projects like stadiums in the far-flung suburbs and not downtown? Yes, of course! But I understand they are trying to promote their own communities and what they think would help them.

I think we should be doing is pointing out the fact that a strong, growing, and successful urban core is CRTICAL to the continued strength and success of it's surrounding and dependent suburbs. This is especially true now in the 21st century as opposed to the urban flight of last century, as cities are more and more defined by their urban centers and are in a tough national and global competition of business, brains, and workers.

I actually think the majority of Utah's legislators understand this. Are there a few bad eggs? Sure. But I would contend they are not remotely the majority. However, most represent suburban and rural voters that do not understand planning principals, the importance of the urban core, the importance of increased density, why we have a housing shortage and how to solve it, etc. So many legislators, even if they understand, are answerable to constituents that don't. This dynamic does have an overall impact on decisions by the State. It is also a dynamic that virtually every other US State is grappling with at the moment, not just Utah. Is this a legit excuse for them opposing smart growth? Not at all. But I do understand it.

So I don't think the actions of the legislature is overall malicious, they are just doing what they think they need to do to get reelected and to represent their specific districts.

I support the project at The Point, not because I want there to be less development downtown, but because I think we need better examples of dense, smart growth development in the suburbs. If the project succeeds, it could help change perceptions of what density and lower level urbanism can mean for Utah. It would also put more legislative districts in more urbanized areas and could help change perceptions of the legislature in the future. I feel the same about the planned development of a downtown Daybreak. Just as the success and health of a city's core lifts all boats, the urbanizing and improvement of a core's existing suburban neighborhoods can help lift the core up as well.

That said, I do think things like a major league stadium or any other professional level stadium should be located in Downtown Salt Lake City or close by like The Power District, as projects like that genuinely benefit and feed off of the proximity of a downtown as opposed to being in the suburbs. I don't think Salt Lake needs these stadiums to succeed, but I do think it could be made even better by them.

Anyway, I'm rambling. This is just how I perceive it at least.
See I disagree somewhat.

Absolutely, legislators are going to do the bidding of their constituents and look at what's best for their districts. But that isn't the discussion here. We can talk about how little influence Salt Lake has due to being only 7% of the state's population, but a city like Draper has even less influence.

But I think there's a good chance the legislature views the Point as a more attractive area to invest into than downtown Salt Lake. I don't think the legislature cares about downtown to be honest. I think they'd be perfectly okay with it dying and everything moving to the suburbs even if they don't represent those suburbs.

Just look at what happened with RSL and the stadium. Does Sandy have more clout than Salt Lake? No - but the senate sure did everything in their power to cut SLC off at the knees when it came to developing the new stadium downtown.

It was Sen. Curt Bramble, who represents Utah County, who stepped up and pushed through a bill in 2005 that blocked RDA funding on sports complexes. It was widely known at the time that Rocky Anderson and Salt Lake City were going to utilize RDA funds to support a stadium on Main Street. Once the RDA funds were stripped from the equation, they didn't have the financial resources.

That's when Dave Checketts opted to go out to Sandy.

Except he ran into the same financial issues he saw in Salt Lake! So, Checketts started floating the idea of relocating the team to another city out of state. What did Bramble do? He did a 180 and reversed the RDA funding rule, which allowed for Sandy to build the stadium using those same funds Salt Lake was barred from using.

Stuff like that absolutely isn't just legislators working for their constituents. His district is the Provo area, in Utah County, not Sandy. He didn't do it to benefit any of his constituents.

Now, do I know for a fact Bramble purposely was motivated by his hate of Salt Lake? No. But it raises a lot of questions that he never really was pressed to answer.

Regardless, whether it's apathy toward downtown's success from these officials, or malice, it all has the same result.
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  #15975  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2023, 11:12 PM
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There's definitely an anti-SLC bent in some legislators. We've talked about it in this thread a few times before.

My read on it is that it's a complicated mixture of rural vs. urban and red vs. blue attitudes, with a little bit of LDS vs. gentile undertones only found in Utah. It all adds up to a desire to keep SLC from being too large and influential on the state level and the desire to spread the prosperity between communities.

What we end up with are baffling outcomes like RSL in Sandy and the new prison in SLC. It ends up screwing over smaller cities too. I actually think it's ridiculous that the state is going to spend a billion dollars on transit expansions to The Point before an established city like Riverton gets a single UTA bus stop.
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  #15976  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2023, 8:42 AM
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I don't think we can ignore political discussions in this thread. Politics affects development, especially since the Utah legislature has a very clear and obvious anti-SLC bias, and many of our state legislators have strong ties to developers. How else do you explain the prison and inland port moves?
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  #15977  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2023, 3:56 PM
Blah_Amazing Blah_Amazing is offline
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I noticed the converted Red Lion hotel has been advertising their apartments on the side of the tower. It's currently now leasing for move-ins, so I guess the conversion is complete???

https://www.common.com/salt-lake-cit...strict/lattice

The project appears to be named: Lattice by Common.

Here is the description from the website, "Welcome to Lattice by Common, a unique residential building and community in the heart of Salt Lake City’s Granary District. A former hotel, your new home features expertly designed studios that provide plenty of space for what you love and need — without sacrificing your budget or style. Come home to floor to ceiling windows with mountain views, a brand new kitchenette, and easy access to awesome amenities right outside your door. Furnished units make getting settled easy, with a bed-frame, couch, credenza, Floyd storage systems, and your choice of a kitchen island with stools or a desk and chair perfect for remote work. Need more space? You got it. Lattice by Common’s amenities stretch across the 13th floor and feature a shared lounge with meeting rooms, cozy seating areas, and a kitchenette, a dining room, and fitness center."

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  #15978  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2023, 7:51 PM
TheGeographer TheGeographer is offline
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Originally Posted by Rileybo View Post
I say we keep as much talk as possible on one thread.
I agree, people can filter through what they don’t want to read. Pretty easy to scroll through to topics and images of interest. I find what Comrade and others are saying regarding politics and how it directly and indirectly affects downtown SLC quite interesting and eye opening personally.
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  #15979  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2023, 8:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
Two thoughts:

I wouldn't put anything past the idea of owning the libs. Salt Lake is the more prominent city in the state and it's dominated by Democrats.

But more importantly, and the real answer I think is this:

Salt Lake is a very small dot in the state. Utah has a population of 3.3 million people. Salt Lake City only has a population of 200,478 (or so). Salt Lake City's population is roughly six-percent of the state's the population.

Denver is double that compared to Colorado's overall population.

Las Vegas' population is 21% of Nevada's population.

That means they have a significant representation in the legislative branch.

Salt Lake City (itself) doesn't

I think there's like three or so state senators who actually live within Salt Lake.

A majority of the Utah senate is represented by people outside Salt Lake County and have no intention of caring about the core city. They don't take pride in downtown and certainly don't care if the Jazz play there or not. Which is remarkable because you'd think they would as it's the literal home to the LDS Church and most these legislators are Mormon.

It also doesn't help the governor has very limited connection to the actual city.

Spencer Cox was the mayor of Fairview, and then the Sanpete County Commission before being elected to the Utah House in a district dominated by Utah County.

Before Cox was Herbert, who was a Utah County man.

So, they have no history of investment in the city. It's a big reason I am kind of skeptical of Ryan Smith. He's never lived in Salt Lake City. He didn't grow up in Salt Lake City. He grew up in Oregon, I believe, and then went to BYU and has lived in Utah County all this time.

At least Larry Miller grew up on the city's west side and went to West High. Maybe that's why Gail is invested in building the MLB stadium in that area (probably not but still).

Regardless, it's clear the state sees an economic opportunity at the Point, which I can understand since it's prime real estate - but it shouldn't come at the expense of an already established core that, like it or not, will always be the focal point of the metro.
I agree with most of what you're saying, but I think some more comparison is needed. Denver is large in geographic area, roughly 154 square miles. Salt Lake City proper is only about 110 square miles, in order to adequately compare the two, you would need to include SSL and WVC to get close at 153 square miles.

Once you do that, you're populations even out. The City of denver ends up being 12% of the total population, if you take into account the same geographic areas the combined, SLC, SSL, WVC you get 11% of the total population.

It has always been weird to me how much smaller our capital city is in comparison to others (look at Chicago!). It doesn't help that you have separate cities (who are also pursuing their own economic development goals) and watering down Salt Lake's voice further. If SLC had that geographic representation of WVC and SSL, they would have more clout.

I've wanted to see a coalition of cities work together to make a regional economic development plan for years, each city is constantly trying to out do themselves and complete for the all coveted sales tax dollars. Anyway, I don't have much more to add, just thought I'd share.
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  #15980  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2023, 11:09 PM
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But Denver International Airport is 52 square miles: one-third of the city's land area. Subtract the airport, and Denver is about 102 square miles.

Since there is 0 population within the airport boundaries, and with an estimated city population of about 710,000, Denver's effective population density is about 7,000 people per square mile.
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