The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Originally Posted by FrAnKs

What did happen with Rob Ford again? so we're all warned

Between the de-conversion of Jarvis St., flip-flopping with the relief line, nearly shutting down the TTC’s streetcars, and smoking crack during his term (then excusing it by saying he was drunk ) to name but a few, Rob Ford did a whole lot in office. I don’t even live in Toronto, and I still remember when he was all over the news.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I’m the kind of guy who’d prefer to ride a bus that comes every 5 minutes rather than a tramway that comes every 15, but a lot of people will not ride the bus at all, and few developers of condos would advertise that their project is on a frequent bus line.

This sort of speaks to how bad transit culture is in Canada. People fan over modes in lieu of frequency and speed.

I was guilty of some of this too until I lived off the Transitway in Ottawa. Now I don't care what I ride as long as it is frequent and stuck in traffic as little as possible. A 10 km bus lane where the bus comes every 5 mins outside my front door, beats a slow bus to a fast train.

This mode fixation also results in learning all the wrong lessons from other jurisdictions. Yeah, trains are nice in Europe. But that's not what makes their cities great. It's the walkability, transit priority and the massive investment in transit coverage and frequency that make their cities pleasant to travel in.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This sort of speaks to how bad transit culture is in Canada. People fan over modes in lieu of frequency and speed.

This mode fixation also results in learning all the wrong lessons from other jurisdictions. Yeah, trains are nice in Europe. But that's not what makes their cities great. It's the walkability, transit priority and the massive investment in transit coverage and frequency that make their cities pleasant to travel in.

It really varies from city to city. Waterloo region was just not big enough where most choice riders would take the bus because it's a bus, but in Toronto or Montreal they absolutely do. At the same time, I think a lot of European cities/countries are just as guilty of hopping on the gadgetbahn train (no pun intended) and favouring rail over a decent bus that can do the job.

Frankly, one of the best applications of "a frequent bus can do the job better than almost any train" is over here: the Hamilton-Toronto express GO bus that runs every 15 minutes from morning until night is pretty much the best bus service I've ever used over that distance anywhere.

Admittedly, I haven't taken surface transit as much in Europe as I do here, and I'm usually on vacation or something that's not too time sensitive (and, frankly, nowadays I don't have the time to indulge in transit geekery in a foreign city while on vacation), but back when I did such things, I didn't find their surface transit to be that much better than here, pound for pound. I've waited 20 minutes for trams to show up in Dutch cities, too. The fact that Canadian cities that are built for the car have transit mode shares in line with dense, medieval-era cities in places like Italy or the UK means that it isn't all that bad here, and all that great over there.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

It really varies from city to city. Waterloo region was just not big enough where most choice riders would take the bus because it's a bus, but in Toronto or Montreal they absolutely do. At the same time, I think a lot of European cities/countries are just as guilty of hopping on the gadgetbahn train (no pun intended) and favouring rail over a decent bus that can do the job.

To be fair to them, they do tend to have the density, funding, etc. that makes their gadgetbahning a bit less destructive. On the other hand, I find in so many Canadian cities the daydreaming about higher order transit is almost a fixation while they still have so many routes on half hour frequencies. Doesn't get that extreme in Europe.

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Admittedly, I haven't taken surface transit as much in Europe as I do here, and I'm usually on vacation or something that's not too time sensitive (and, frankly, nowadays I don't have the time to indulge in transit geekery in a foreign city while on vacation), but back when I did such things, I didn't find their surface transit to be that much better than here, pound for pound. I've waited 20 minutes for trams to show up in Dutch cities, too.

In my travels, I have often found places that trade off. So frequency is high but transit priority isn't as strong. Or frequency is lower, but transit priority is a bit better. Did the Dutch tram you waited 20 mins for get stuck in traffic?

Originally Posted by hipster duck

The fact that Canadian cities that are built for the car have transit mode shares in line with dense, medieval-era cities in places like Italy or the UK means that it isn't all that bad here, and all that great over there.

The big difference between us and Europe isn't so much transit mode share as car mode share and walkability. There's just so much more you can do on your own two feet over there. The car ownership and mileage rates for their countries and ours kina speaks for itself.

[jamincan]

Waterloo went with LRT because the projected demand would exceed what they could provide with BRT within 20 years. I linked to the report that looked at BRT vs. LRT in this very thread not that long ago. If you have an alternative version of history, I'd love to see the facts to back it up.

[Mr. Blue]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

It really varies from city to city. Waterloo region was just not big enough where most choice riders would take the bus because it's a bus, but in Toronto or Montreal they absolutely do. At the same time, I think a lot of European cities/countries are just as guilty of hopping on the gadgetbahn train (no pun intended) and favouring rail over a decent bus that can do the job.

Frankly, one of the best applications of "a frequent bus can do the job better than almost any train" is over here: the Hamilton-Toronto express GO bus that runs every 15 minutes from morning until night is pretty much the best bus service I've ever used over that distance anywhere.

GO Buses in Toronto are very underrated. They provide very good, fast and relatively frequent for what it is intercity bus service for suburb-to suburb trips. Imagine Toronto also had fare integration as well...

[Coldrsx]

The future is now!

my own

[Beedok]

I’d just like to quietly grumble about how inconsistent google map’s transit overlay is. It’s missing several Toronto streetcar lines. It doesn’t even touch ION or any bus transit-ways (which are firmly higher order transit than streetcars). Yet, when I poked around California it had commuter rail lines.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Beedok

I’d just like to quietly grumble about how inconsistent google map’s transit overlay is. It’s missing several Toronto streetcar lines. It doesn’t even touch ION or any bus transit-ways (which are firmly higher order transit than streetcars). Yet, when I poked around California it had commuter rail lines.

It also doesn't have Calgary's CTrain, but Edmonton LRT and Ottawa O-Train were added a little less than two years ago. Not sure if Google decides or if transit agencies approach them.

[Innsertnamehere]

Google removed user input abilities a few years ago and it's quality hasn't been the same since. It's also generally not nearly as responsive to changes. It took it almost a year to add the 407 extension, and IIRC almost 2 years to add the spadina subway extension.

[Truenorth00]

Transit app.

[J.OT13]

Preliminary renderings of Ontario Line stations.

Exhibition.





Queen-Spadina.





King-Bathurst.






https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/10003...-oriented-communities-along-ontario-line

More renderings of stations and TOD:

https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/10003...-oriented-communities-along-ontario-line

[Truenorth00]

The second system in the country with climate controlled stations, aside from REM. It's great that we're getting infrastructure in the 2020s that a lot of the rest of the world has had for decades.

Does the Montreal Metro get credit for never going outside at all? That stations are naturally much more comfortable than any other subway/metro system.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The second system in the country with climate controlled stations, aside from REM. It's great that we're getting infrastructure in the 2020s that a lot of the rest of the world has had for decades.

Does the Montreal Metro get credit for never going outside at all? That stations are naturally much more comfortable than any other subway/metro system.

Not sure about winter, but I've heard complaints about scorching summer heat in the metro. Rolling stock can't have a/c because the system is fully underground, otherwise tunnels would get even hotter. The Azure at least was built with a far better ventilation system that includes passive cooling as the trains move.

[Truenorth00]

I guess the UPE should get partial credit since both terminus stations are enclosed.

[Hybrid247]

New high level site plan of Exhibition Station as well:


https://www.metrolinxengage.com/en/content/ontario-line-neighbourhood-updates-west

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Not sure about winter, but I've heard complaints about scorching summer heat in the metro. Rolling stock can't have a/c because the system is fully underground, otherwise tunnels would get even hotter. The Azure at least was built with a far better ventilation system that includes passive cooling as the trains move.

I've never found the metro to be very hot in the summer, but on the other hand it's often too hot in the winter.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I think a lot of European cities/countries are just as guilty of hopping on the gadgetbahn train (no pun intended) and favouring rail over a decent bus that can do the job.

In some areas people highly value quality of life aspects like noise levels and air quality. If a bus is traveling along a busy arterial or highway then it's not such a big deal, but buses are often not so nice for street life on narrow streets.

Maybe electric buses will solve these problems and further reduce the benefits of tram-like systems over buses. Another change is happening with self-driving technology, which everybody knows about and there is tons of noise about but is a real thing too. In the 80's it was possible with very specifically constrained systems but in principle it could expand more and more and eventually cover buses in mixed traffic. So the driver-per-passenger advantage of trains is likely to diminish too. This is a very real consideration over a 30-50 year time frame that is relevant for planning say a new metro line.

[J.OT13]

New STO bus route patterns through Downtown Ottawa, two years in the making. These changes are to better connect with the O-Train and remove buses from Wellington: STO nearly exclusively ran convoys of buses right in front of Parliament on Wellington and down Rideau before turning back on King Edward towards Gatineau.

Albert and Slater use to be the central Transitway. Plans still call for removing the old bus lanes, narrowing the streets from 3-4 lanes to 2-3. STO volumes are nowhere near as high as the old OC volumes, so the streets should be able to handle it.


https://twitter.com/OC_Transpo/status/1404820929071484930

https://www.octranspo.com/en/news/article/sto-service-changing-in-ottawa/

[Innsertnamehere]

Hamilton City Council just approved a motion to enter into a Memorandum of Understanding on the Hamilton LRT with the province 9-6, so support for the project on Council continues.

The LRT is going to actually happen by the sounds of it!