The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[Ottawa]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Why isn't it? This isn't the Shire. It's between an industrial park and Coleson Cove. Where should large-scale industry happen, Moncton?

Why do people who buy a postage stamp lot feel like they can dictate to everybody else what happens within visual range of their postage stamp lot?
I bought a house on the outskirts of a city 25 years ago. There were no neighbours in our back yard. There were easily accessible green spaces close by. That little piece of nirvana became filled up with people and houses and services and stores and... If that wasn't the experience in Lorneville, it doesn't mean they have any more right to dictate how the surrounding land gets used to satisfy other's needs.

If you want to dictate how a neighbourhood develops, you're going to have to go live in a place where nobody else wants to be.

i think that study was exceptional in it's thoroughness and sensitivities to the local community. It has done everything except supply the names of the companies and people who want to set up operations there. That is likely because all the pieces have to be in place to make that happen.

[DyAm00394]

"Traffic Advisory: Main Street

The City of Saint John would like to advise the public of the following traffic interruption that will begin on Monday, May 5 on Main Street. This closure and detour are necessary for the continuation of the Main Street Active Transportation Improvements Project. The work will include the installation of protected active transportation facilities, reconfiguration of intersections, installation of new traffic signals, and accessibility improvements for pedestrians along Main Street between Union Street and Chesley Drive.

Traffic detours will be in place for motorists, and sidewalks will remain available for pedestrians.

Businesses will remain open while the work is being completed.

Street: Main Street

Date: May 5, 2025

Duration: 16 weeks

Time: 24 hours a day

Direction: In both directions

Action: Traffic reduced to one lane

Specific area: Between Union Street and Chesley Drive/Lansdowne Avenue

Description of work: Infrastructure installation/upgrades

Road signage and sidewalk directional signage will be in place. Motorists are asked to drive with caution and be aware of pedestrians and workers".

https://saintjohn.ca/en/news-and-notices/traffic-advisory-main-street

[DyAm00394]

A new CBC article on the planned industrial park expansion: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-bruns...cal-business-need-green-energy-1.7521718

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

A new CBC article on the planned industrial park expansion: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-bruns...cal-business-need-green-energy-1.7521718

I wonder if residents around Lorneville, where there is already some light industrial just expected things to stay the exact same? Unless there was a significant population increase, you could see suburban single family home areas or cul-de-sacs with a grocery store out there etc. But it's prime industrial land, away from most residents, out of the city, easily accessible via a highway overpass.

Sure they might here some more noise, or more trucks, and yes there is the wildlife aspect but feels very nimby for a small population of people.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

I wonder if residents around Lorneville, where there is already some light industrial just expected things to stay the exact same? Unless there was a significant population increase, you could see suburban single family home areas or cul-de-sacs with a grocery store out there etc. But it's prime industrial land, away from most residents, out of the city, easily accessible via a highway overpass.

Sure they might here some more noise, or more trucks, and yes there is the wildlife aspect but feels very nimby for a small population of people.

Looking at that picture from the article, I looked up where these guys reside, and it's not Saint John:


Like is it not a bit rich that both these guys in charge don't live in the city, let alone anywhere near the property in question? If a similar expansion was proposed for their communities, I think there'd be a lot more pushback than what we've already seen from the "Save Lorneville" people. The outlying communities would freak out about this sort of proposal in their communities too...

It's not as if Lorneville is the only place in the Saint John Region where heavy industry could expand. As you say, Lorneville could also be good for suburban development. If suburbs popped up beside what is literally the largest oil refinery in Canada, they could also pop up in Lorneville, along with industrial expansion.



Like is this seaside portion absolutely necessary? Seems like a pretty poor use of oceanfront land not even 15 minutes from the core of the city...

This isn't binary, there should be room for commercial and industrial enterprises that create jobs, but also room for residential development.

It seems so many people in the Saint John Region want to build up our suburbs as far away from the ocean as possible, whereas elsewhere, being closer to the ocean is considered more desirable and valuable.



This is like 15 minutes from the city centre of Saint John, closer than Quispamsis to the city... I think Lorneville could be a great location to build some multi storey apartments or condos with views of the Bay of Fundy... or just some run of the mill suburbs with single family homes. Far enough away to enjoy being surrounding by nature, but still close enough to the city that it's a very easy commute.

I think the city and our regional leaders should look to make a compromise here... one that allots enough space for industrial and commercial enterprises to expand, but also allots enough space for future residential growth. Seaside suburban developments and industrial expansion should both be possible.

[sailor734]

People build away from the ocean here because the KV isn't nearly as cold and foggy in the summer. I'm in Millidgeville for the same reason.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

https://saintjohn.ca/en/news-and-notices/traffic-advisory-main-street

"Active Transportation"........another multi million dollar infrastructure project to be used by a tiny handful of people......but hey, it's green and it's in and it looks good.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

People build away from the ocean here because the KV isn't nearly as cold and foggy in the summer. I'm in Millidgeville for the same reason.

I've heard... but I think it's a lot more than just fog and milder weather. The milder weather also goes the other way in the winter time.

I think a lot of people completely blow the "fog issue" out of proportion. There's been multiple decades demographic flight to suburbs outside the city of Saint John, a process which has finally shown some signs of reversal, only thanks to people moving to Saint John from elsewhere.

I don't think fog is the reason Lorneville never saw substantial suburban development... I think it has far more to do with decades of provincial and municipal policies and strategies that prioritized development eastwards... especially the Saint John Throughway and MacKay highway projects.

There's still a good opportunity for suburban development in Lorneville.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

"Active Transportation"........another multi million dollar infrastructure project to be used by a tiny handful of people......but hey, it's green and it's in and it looks good.

Would you really not want to ride your bike instead of driving if Saint John had more bike paths? I don't get the disdain you, Adam, and a few others on here have for active transportation and cycling in general... Saint John is wayyyy too car-centric and it doesn't need to be.

I still think the biggest thing we are lacking is some sort of city bike rental system. This type of service along the harbour passage would be incredible for promoting people being more active, and get at one of the main reasons people don't want to use their bikes as a form of transportation in Saint John— bike theft.

Saint John has a disproportionate amount of people selling their bikes, because they either don't feel safe riding them, or there's a big risk of them being stolen.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by sailor734

"Active Transportation"........another multi million dollar infrastructure project to be used by a tiny handful of people......but hey, it's green and it's in and it looks good.

I am a big supporter of active transportation, but I admit that this bike lane will be of little use in the short term.

However, the other road improvements and a general rethink of Main Street are positive changes. The current three-lane highway monstrosity is just silly. Hopefully, this will encourage development in this area along with other upcoming changes.

If you look at some of the drawings in the link below (from page 25 onwards), you can get a better idea of what it will look like.

https://pub-saintjohn.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=21117

The Main Street Active Transportation Improvements project achieves a more livable environment along the Main Street corridor and provides an important active transportation connection between the Old North End and the Central Peninsula. A few noteworthy improvements include:

 Protected Active Transportation Lanes – Installation of a combination of protected bike lanes and multi-use pathways along the corridor. These lanes will be separated from vehicle traffic by a buffer space as well as concrete barriers in order to create a physical separation for active transportation users from motor vehicles.
 Enhanced Traffic Control Features on the Viaduct – Enhanced traffic control features at the ramps along the Viaduct will be installed to reduce speeds and create safer environments for pedestrians and cyclists. These features include the realignment of these ramps so that their curves are more abrupt and meet Main Street/the Viaduct at a sharper angle, the installation of a Rectangular Rapid Flash Beacon crosswalk at the Highway 1 westbound ramp, and the installation of a set of traffic signals at the Highway 1 eastbound ramp to minimize conflicts between pedestrians/cyclists and vehicles.
 Improved Pedestrian Areas – The existing pedestrian infrastructure on both sides of Main Street will be improved in some areas, including widening of sidewalks and walking surfaces and the installation of Tactile Warning Surface Indicators at pedestrian crossings. All crosswalks along the corridor will be shortened to reduce the exposure of pedestrians to motor vehicles.
Traffic Signal Upgrade – Installation of new traffic signal equipment at the intersection of Main Street and Metcalf Street. These traffic signals will include vehicle detection, audible pedestrian signals, tactile warning surface indicators, bike signals, and bike boxes to improve safety and level of service for all users at the intersection.
 Enhanced Green Spaces – Removal of some of the existing asphalt along the corridor to include more greenspace. Greenspaces will be added at three of the six Viaduct ramps, along the center median near Portland
Street, as well as between the on-street parking areas along the section from Chesley Drive and Metcalf Street.
 Transit Stop Enhancements – Enhancements to transit stops along the corridor, which will involve the addition of transit lay-bys at several of the existing transit stops on Main Street, including next to the Mercantile building and on either side of Main Street near Portland Street.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

I wonder if residents around Lorneville, where there is already some light industrial just expected things to stay the exact same? Unless there was a significant population increase, you could see suburban single family home areas or cul-de-sacs with a grocery store out there etc. But it's prime industrial land, away from most residents, out of the city, easily accessible via a highway overpass.

Sure they might here some more noise, or more trucks, and yes there is the wildlife aspect but feels very nimby for a small population of people.

For the record, I support the rezoning changes, but there are a few factors at play in Lorneville that are worth pointing out.

While it has been decades, many in the community are still bitter about the expropriation for the power plant and the landfill situation. While planning and environmental regulation have improved significantly since then, they are still distrustful.

Several very vocal community members are well known in the outdoors community and sports, such as running and cycling. These individuals have helped to build and maintain the trail systems at Split Rock/Black Beach and elsewhere in the city and are very protective of them, even if they aren't official trails. They are also just generally 'green' people who value nature and the environment, and clear-cutting for industrial development is against their values.

Lastly, many of the families that live in Lorneville have lived there for generations, more so than in other parts of the city. They would like to maintain the quiet, picturesque fishing village vibe while still being a stone's throw from the city amenities and jobs.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by bingun

I am a big supporter of active transportation, but I admit that this bike lane will be of little use in the short term.

However, the other road improvements and a general rethink of Main Street are positive changes. The current three-lane highway monstrosity is just silly. Hopefully, this will encourage development in this area along with other upcoming changes.

If you look at some of the drawings in the link below (from page 25 onwards), you can get a better idea of what it will look like.

https://pub-saintjohn.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=21117

It looks promising, but hopefully we see some substantial residential developments occur on main street.


I really think the city should explore city bike rental stations... no I don't expect hundreds of stations like much bigger cities have, but a dozen or so stations along the harbour passage system would do a lot more for active transportation in Saint John than these proposed bike lanes will. However, the province would probably have to amend the bicycle helmet law to make bike rental stations viable.



Stations like these would be a game changer for active transportation in Saint John.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

It's not as if Lorneville is the only place in the Saint John Region where heavy industry could expand. As you say, Lorneville could also be good for suburban development. If suburbs popped up beside what is literally the largest oil refinery in Canada, they could also pop up in Lorneville, along with industrial expansion.

This is the same argument that Lorneville residents make about there being 'somewhere else' to rezone.

The section from the report addresses this, but I would love for someone to actually present a realistic alternative that is suitable for what is desired, because I don't think there is one without spending a fortune on new infrastructure.

LAND AVAILABILITY
There were questions from the Lorneville Community about why the Industrial Park cannot be built elsewhere in the City. The Committee reviewed the City’s current surplus lands inventory and reviewed privately controlled lands that are zoned for industrial use as well as lands zoned for industrial use that are controlled by the City - See Appendix II
The City, via Saint John Industrial Parks, owns less than 52 Hectares of land in the Spruce Lake industrial Park. The lands are spread out across the park with an average lot size of 5 hectares. Saint John Industrial Parks owns less than 19 Hectares of land in the McAllister Industrial Park, and it is spread out across the park with an average lot size of 2 hectares. Due to the spread-out nature of existing City controlled land, it presents minimum opportunity for any significant land assembly to attract larger development opportunities. There are several projects that would require lot sizes of 15 to 55 hectares each and the City has no capacity to welcome such development opportunities in Saint John with the existing inventory of Industrial Zones lands as they currently stand.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Would you really not want to ride your bike instead of driving if Saint John had more bike paths? NO I don't get the disdain you, Adam, and a few others on here have for active transportation and cycling in general... Saint John is wayyyy too car-centric and it doesn't need to be.

The distain is the city spending a bunch money to install and maintain these lanes, constricting travel lanes and serving a tiny, tiny percentage of road users.
I still think the biggest thing we are lacking is some sort of city bike rental system. This type of service along the harbour passage would be incredible for promoting people being more active, and get at one of the main reasons people don't want to use their bikes as a form of transportation in Saint John— bike theft.

Saint John has a disproportionate amount of people selling their bikes, because they either don't feel safe riding them, or there's a big risk of them being stolen.

I am still waiting to see any kind of legitimate traffic study to justify any of these changes.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by bingun

This is the same argument that Lorneville residents make about there being 'somewhere else' to rezone.

The section from the report addresses this, but I would love for someone to actually present a realistic alternative that is suitable for what is desired, because I don't think there is one without spending a fortune on new infrastructure.

The portion you quoted only mentions land within the city, not the region as a whole.



You're telling me there's no other suitable industrial sites without highway access?

Again, I'm not saying I'm even opposed to this, but I think there's some valid concerns being raised, and I definitely question the necessity of the ocean front parcel they have listed for proposed heavy industrial uses.


I think the city should come to some sort of compromise here. Not just to placate residents, but for a more balanced development trajectory for Lorneville into the future. I think there's ample room in Lorneville for both industrial and residential developments.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

No.

The distain is the city spending a bunch money to install and maintain these lanes, constricting travel lanes and serving a tiny, tiny percentage of road users.

Not a fan of cycling I guess? Too bad, it's good exercise, saves you money on gas, and is fun!


I think the city definitely spends too much money on bike lanes, when they basically amount to painted lines on the street.

But I asked you if you'd ride a bike more if we had more bike baths... as in separate bike paths, not bike lines shared with motor vehicles.

More bike paths is what Saint John needs, not just more bike lanes.

I think spending money on bike rental stations would have been a far better long term investment in active transportation than the current approach focussed on bike lanes.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

The portion you quoted only mentions land within the city, not the region as a whole.



You're telling me there's no other suitable industrial sites without highway access?

Again, I'm not saying I'm even opposed to this, but I think there's some valid concerns being raised, and I definitely question the necessity of the ocean front parcel they have listed for proposed heavy industrial uses.


I think the city should come to some sort of compromise here. Not just to placate residents, but for a more balanced development trajectory for Lorneville into the future. I think theres's ample room in Lorneville for both industrial and residential developments.

Yes, but why would the city be involved with industrial rezoning outside its limits? Not to mention, it wouldn't benefit from such development.

At the end of the day, the city needs additional tax revenue and stable employment for its citizens, hence its attempt to attract industrial businesses.

Lorneville's location, with highway and port access, 'green' or 'zero emission' power sources nearby, potential for municipal water and other services, and an existing industrial workforce, has attracted interest from several enterprises.

Is there another site within city limits that is as suitable as the Spruce Lake Industrial Park?

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by bingun

Yes, but why would the city be involved with industrial rezoning outside its limits? Not to mention, it wouldn't benefit from such development.

At the end of the day, the city needs additional tax revenue and stable employment for its citizens, hence its attempt to attract industrial businesses.

Lorneville's location, with highway and port access, 'green' or 'zero emission' power sources nearby, potential for municipal water and other services, and an existing industrial workforce, has attracted interest from several enterprises.

Is there another site within city limits that is as suitable as the Spruce Lake Industrial Park?

It's not just the city that's involved in this...

I agree though, at the end of the day, we do need developments like this.

However, I still firmly believe that there's room for both industrial and residential developments out there in Lorneville, and that the proposed oceanside parcel on for heavy industry on that map seems like a poor use of oceanfront real estate.

The city and its regional partners should be looking to come to some sort of compromise here.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I am still waiting to see any kind of legitimate traffic study to justify any of these changes.

No bike lane installed in Saint John has ever had a public review of its usage after creation.

Does Main need to be six lanes? No. Does Saint John have to run bike lanes down Charlotte Street and axe on-street parking in the central business area? Also no.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

No bike lane installed in Saint John has ever had a public review of its usage after creation.

Does Main need to be six lanes? No. Does Saint John have to run bike lanes down Charlotte Street and axe on-street parking in the central business area? Also no.

The new bike lane on King's Square by RBC has been particularly amusing, not just because the buses keep crashing into it. I assume it's best practice to clear bike lanes in winter, but that clearly isn't the plan here, as that new bike lane was unusable until a few weeks ago.

I also find the city's plan to build bike lanes connecting to the new South End school perplexing. We want to encourage elementary school children to bike to school uptown?