ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[NativeAtlantan]

wow, andrea, you make the most ridiculous statements on this forum....

[plorenc]

Originally Posted by cybele

I wasn't trying to make some big city versus suburban thing out if it. I don't think all that many people who live intown are willing to give up their cars either. A lot of them have to drive to work out in the suburbs or to shopping centers or to take their kids to school.

I do see the point of not messing up the neighborhoods, though. Hopefully the Ox will go slow on this idea.

The hostility to such an idea comes on two fronts:

1. Building a new highway is not going to reduce congestion in the long term. While it may do so in the short term, it will fill up to capacity (and create more sprawl in the process) within just a few years.

2. The areas that it would go through are some of the most pedestrian friendly, compact communities in Atlanta. Destroying these in the name of building more monotonous, car-dependent, unsustainable sprawl would just be wrong.

If we focused our public monies more on public transit and less on roads, the congestion would fall (from less cars that are necessary on the road) and pedestrian and transit oriented growth around transit stations would result. This smarter growth would then increase the demand for transit, which in turn would result in more smart growth. This is assuming the demand exists for such development, which I'm positive does (if executed correctly).

This gradual transformation is assuming a consistently cheap gas prices, which is not reality. As energy prices continue to push upward, the appeal of developments centered around walking or public transit also goes up. And... the appeal of those centered (dependent) around cars goes down. The good news for staunch drivers is that there will be fewer cars on the road, so less congestion. However, this also means much less investment and maintenance of roads from the general public, so there will be fewer roads to choose from.

We have enough highways here in Atlanta for the time being. It is my humble opinion that we won't be using them to their current capacity in the not too distant future. We should not invest in such an unsustainable endeavor, especially when we are destroying the only walkable heritage we have in the process.

[Fiorenza]

I'm no fan of suburban mass transit, and can see the need for some surface road improvements. However, we don't need more limited access highways. Atlanta area growth is no longer on steroids, and people are seeking personal solutions to saving gas and road time, which will likely help reduce overcapacity. What Ox is proposing is a pure political move, designed to help him in two ways. One, it gains him support of the road lobby which is huge. Two, he gets to beat on one of the pet causes of Eastside Atlanta Democrats, ie neighborhood quality. Everybody knows the east connector is dead and will never live again. I don't think pandering to lobbies and anti-Atlanta feelings is good politics. It invites countermeasures.

[sevensixtwo]

Originally Posted by cybele

he will give a fair hearing to all involved.

You mean 'he will execute his agenda right'? Nice euphemism.

[llamaorama]

What's the point though, that area isn't spectacularly dense. Would anyone drive on it?

[sevensixtwo]

Originally Posted by cybele

What's the old saying about you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs? Everybody always screams, "But not in my backyard!" but we would never get anything done without a little temporary inconvenience.

Well, now you are actually making sense. That's the old cybele I remember from last year.

[skapunkskatedude]

Originally Posted by cybele

I wasn't trying to make some big city versus suburban thing out if it. I don't think all that many people who live intown are willing to give up their cars either. A lot of them have to drive to work out in the suburbs or to shopping centers or to take their kids to school.

I do see the point of not messing up the neighborhoods, though. Hopefully the Ox will go slow on this idea.

Not only do i live intown, i live in one of those neighborhoods that would be demolished to create this atrocity... And i for one have given up using my car 90% of the time for MARTA.

Originally Posted by cybele

How many people in Atlanta rely on transit, even where we have it

Approximately half a million people per day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Atlanta_Rapid_Transit_Authority#Heavy_rail). I like to cite all my sources.

Thats up to half a million cars taken off the streets every day. On an insufficient system such as MARTA. Now imagine if someone actually took initiative to go ahead and build out the system. Anyone who refuses to even contemplate building it out need not even bother running for Governor.

[Curious Atlantan]

I think what cybele was trying to get across are the following realities we have to unfortunately live with like it or not:
1. this guy is going to be our next governor
2. the state of Ga really does not like and is not willing to support Atlanta
3. more than 90% of Metro Atlanta population lives in the suburbs
4. an even larger percentage than that lives a suburban lifestyle and is not willing to give up their cars
Faced with these facts, the few progressives in Atlanta that want to change things a bit are facing a really hard uphill battle

[JTLInATL]

IMHO no one should be rewarded for moving to Forsyth County and commuting into the city by car for the big city paycheck. An extensive combination of commuter rail, heavy rail, and light rail should be the preferred method of moving the labor force into the city. Atlanta simply can't support more limited access highways in its city center without ancillary roads that can handle the traffic. And that's impossible, due to Atlanta's topography and layout. I should note: I'm an ex-Atlantan who lives in London now, and I love the congestion charging scheme motorists face who choose to drive into the City. CCTV cameras take pictures of your license plate when you drive in the City of London, Kensington, Chelsea, Westminster, Soho, and other high-congestion areas during the week in the daytime, and you are billed for it. I think it's brilliant. They should implement it in all of the employment centers in Atlanta, including downtown, Midtown, Buckhead, and Dunwoody.

[alleystreetindustry]

i may live five blocks from this development, but i do wish vision comes to life. the city of atlanta isnt meant to be a bedroom community. leave that for cobb & gwinnett.

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/peachtree-street-nightclub-plan-127367.html

[gttx]

Originally Posted by JTLInATL

IMHO no one should be rewarded for moving to Forsyth County and commuting into the city by car for the big city paycheck. An extensive combination of commuter rail, heavy rail, and light rail should be the preferred method of moving the labor force into the city. Atlanta simply can't support more limited access highways in its city center without ancillary roads that can handle the traffic. And that's impossible, due to Atlanta's topography and layout. I should note: I'm an ex-Atlantan who lives in London now, and I love the congestion charging scheme motorists face who choose to drive into the City. CCTV cameras take pictures of your license plate when you drive in the City of London, Kensington, Chelsea, Westminster, Soho, and other high-congestion areas during the week in the daytime, and you are billed for it. I think it's brilliant. They should implement it in all of the employment centers in Atlanta, including downtown, Midtown, Buckhead, and Dunwoody.

Unfortunately, intown Atlanta is a far cry from London. Implementing that sort of congestion pricing here will do one thing: move residents and businesses to the suburbs.

As an aside, this is the first time I have ever agreed with Fiorenza on politics!

[Newnan_Eric]

Originally Posted by cybele

Are all those CDC buildings going for LEED certification? I would hope so, since its neighbor Emory has made such a huge commitment to going green.

Building 24 is going for LEED-Gold.

Building 23 will not be certified. It's got other priorities that don't necessarily lend themselves to LEED certification. (Vivariums, Insectaries, Laboratories) I'd tell you more, but then I'd have to.... well you know.

[cybele]

Thanks, Eric. And no, I don't want to know that bad!

Curious Atlantan, thanks for encapsulating what I was trying to say, with a lot more eloquence and clarity.

[ajdelo]

Originally Posted by skapunkskatedude

Not only do i live intown, i live in one of those neighborhoods that would be demolished to create this atrocity... And i for one have given up using my car 90% of the time for MARTA.



Approximately half a million people per day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Atlanta_Rapid_Transit_Authority#Heavy_rail). I like to cite all my sources.

Thats up to half a million cars taken off the streets every day. On an insufficient system such as MARTA. Now imagine if someone actually took initiative to go ahead and build out the system. Anyone who refuses to even contemplate building it out need not even bother running for Governor.

I agree 100% and I'll give a real life example:

Saturday evening, 6:00pm, Stone Mountain. I talked a buddy of mine into riding MARTA to a Falcons game - and I'm not talking about driving to a station and then riding the train, I'm talking transit all the way. We were going to pick up the bus at Ponce/Hambrick which goes straight to Avondale and then take the train to the Dome. After waiting at the bus stop for 15 minutes (no exaggeration) with no site of a bus and realizing that we were going to end up being extremely late to the game, we walked back to my house, drove my truck to Avondale, and then took the train to the Dome. The entire drive to Avondale resulted in not passing a bus at all.

What is the moral of this story? Transit has been put on such a back burner in this city and it's suburbs that the buses can only run every 20 minutes on the weekends and the trains can only run every 15. It is an absolute shame and a disgrace to residents such as I, who choose to live in the suburbs but support transit.

And now I read a story from Ox about building more roads instead of looking at alternate transit? Will Atlantans hop on the idea of train immediately and drop their cars? NO. Would Atlantans eventually realize and appreciate the benefits of a really good transit system if executed properly? I believe they would. But the fact that it is the last option that is ever brought up in any conversation regarding traffic congestion is absurd.

[jew4life4948]

Originally Posted by Newnan_Eric

Building 24 is going for LEED-Gold.

Building 23 will not be certified. It's got other priorities that don't necessarily lend themselves to LEED certification. (Vivariums, Insectaries, Laboratories) I'd tell you more, but then I'd have to.... well you know.

Sadly, LEED does not take into account the transport choices of the buildings occupants.

[RobMidtowner]

Originally Posted by cybele

Rob, I am not anti-rail. It's very cool as an adjunct to other means of travel.

But we have to got to be realistic. How many people in Atlanta rely on transit, even where we have it?

And what's the likelihood that people in the suburbs will give up their cars in favor of transit? Atlanta's growth has been fueled by the phenomenal success of its suburbs, and all those millions of people and those big Fortune 500 corporations moved there because they preferred that lifestyle.

Even if we had the many billions of dollars it would take to build a usable rail system in the suburbs, most people would still need to drive to a station, and they'd need a car or something similar when they got to their destination.

And yes, highway construction is a mess, but so is rail. Anybody who lived through the chaos of the MARTA years knows that.

It doesn't necessarily have to be rail. We're already benefiting from a pretty extensive regional bus system. But a realistic solution to traffic congestion needs to be comprehensive and include all modes of transportation, not just one more extremely expensive connection within our interstate network.

[NativeAtlantan]

less than 90% are in the suburbs....look it up.

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by jew4life4948

Sadly, LEED does not take into account the transport choices of the buildings occupants.

But I think they do give some points for having bike racks / showers, and designated carpool and low emissions vehicle spaces. You just can't force people to use them.

[(four 0 four)]

Buckhead skyline from Phipps Plaza

L to R: Mansion On Peachtree, Sovereign, Terminus, Two Alliance Center, One Alliance Center

[sevensixtwo]

Ahhh... so that's what Two Alliance is doing. From 400 I've been noticing some kind of asymmetry that has really been bugging me. Something about how the lines didn't fit the geometry I had in my head. Thanks.