Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[harls]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Should I prepare for a trip to la belle province by watching episodes of "Bonjour Hi"?

Remember when SNL was funny? I don't.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by harls

Remember when SNL was funny? I don't.

Sure, last week!

[Acajack]

According to La Presse Canadienne, we are now up to 13 of 27 sitting PLQ members who either have announced they won't be running again, or are set to announce they are leaving the good ship Libéral in the coming days or weeks.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by harls

Remember when SNL was funny? I don't.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

According to La Presse Canadienne, we are now up to 13 of 27 sitting PLQ members who either have announced they won't be running again, or are set to announce they are leaving the good ship Libéral in the coming days or weeks.

The CAQ is turning into the Natural Governing Party...

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by lio45

The CAQ is turning into the Natural Governing Party...

Let's wait another decade to declare them the Natural Governing Party of Quebec.

The federal Liberals ruled for 70 years during the 20th century.

The CAQ is strong, yes. Quebec is fickle, though. At one point, the PLQ could have been Quebec's Natural Governing Party, holding power from 2003 through 2018, aside from a break in 2012-2014.

I don't think anyone in the establishment should get too comfy.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by lio45

The CAQ is turning into the Natural Governing Party...

They're still in their first term. I'd say wait until 2026 to see if that will be the case.

[Acajack]

Ironically, PLQ leader Dominique Anglade was not that long ag quite involved with the CAQ, even serving as the president of the party.

She left the CAQ and then joined the Liberals in 2015.

I don't know what her reasons were for making that move but I guess it looked like a good idea at the time.

Not so much in 2022.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

The federal Liberals ruled for 70 years during the 20th century.

More years than the Communist Party of the Soviet Union I believe - and they were the only party allowed in their country for most of the century!

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Ironically, PLQ leader Dominique Anglade was not that long ag quite involved with the CAQ, even serving as the president of the party.

The way things are going for the Quebec provincial Liberal Party, she should change her name to Dominique Anglais, since this will be the only voting constituency the party will have left in the province.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The way things are going for the Quebec provincial Liberal Party, she should change her name to Dominique Anglais, since this will be the only voting constituency the party will have left in the province.

Haha.

Maybe she needs to shore up the "base", given that not one but two anglo rights parties are coming up on her flank!

[big T]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Haha.

Maybe she needs to shore up the "base", given that not one but two anglo rights parties are coming up on her flank!

It’s a shame for Anglade though, she seems like a moderately competent leader who just happened to pick the wrong lane as traffic was backing up.

Parties like the PLQ tend to get in trouble as soon as they lose power. I mean, running on keeping the good times rolling by making the other guys look scary/incompetent/racist/whatever is one thing they do fairly well, but when you’re no longer the incumbent all you have to sell is ideas. At least in North America we rarely have time to go beyond the crass caricature, and when it comes down to it you need a clear brand. QS is brainy communism, CAQ is ethno identity and blue collar values, PQ is admittedly in trouble but can still hold onto the nation building thing, but the Libs… what is it they stand for again? Beyond “not independence” and “corruption”, I mean. What’s the big projet de société?

So, back to this Anglade as a competent leader idea. Admittedly she hasn’t done well with the libs but the challenges were considerable, and COVID ensured the governing party took up all the oxygen for two full years. If she had any grand plans to establish a much needed brand, she never got a chance to execute. I still hope we get to see how she does in less turbulent times (with the libs or other).

[Acajack]

I definitely find her competent and likeable. If I were a PLQ member, I definitely wouldn't blame her as she basically inherited a sinking ship.

Way worse leaders have had a way easier time of it. So bad timing, really.

Things wouldn't have been any different with any other person leading things, I'd wager.

What really sucks for the PLQ is they looked like they had a pretty good chance of becoming Quebec's natural governing party, at least for a while.

I still haven't figured out all of the true reasons for this slide.

I mean, Anglade tried to steer the PLQ in a more nationalist direction last year in a bid to appeal to francophones, but now they're already backtracking on that.

I am wondering if the party brass and grassroots haven't rapped her on the knuckles and brought her back into line.

The thing is that when the PLQ got 30-35% of the francophone vote as it often has in the past, that meant that even though it's always been kinda seen as "the party of anglos (and allophones who align with anglos)", most PLQ voters were still francophones.

With the PLQ in the 10% range among francophones, that means that the PLQ voter base tips a lot more heavily towards anglos and "anglo-allos".

[MolsonExport]

The PLQ under Robert Bourassa was highly nationalist, and this made them very successful (while propagating the English language protest movements, e.g., the Equality Party, and later, Howard Galganov).

• Video Link

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

The PLQ under Robert Bourassa was highly nationalist, and this made them very successful (while propagating the English language protest movements, e.g., the Equality Party, and later, Howard Galganov).

Yeah, I tend to see that as a bit of a "golden age" for them, though I suppose certain people like Clifford Lincoln might not agree.

Meech really built them in the butt though, though they did very impressively rebuild in the first part of the 2000s.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I definitely find her competent and likeable. If I were a PLQ member, I definitely wouldn't blame her as she basically inherited a sinking ship.

Way worse leaders have had a way easier time of it. So bad timing, really.

Things wouldn't have been any different with any other person leading things, I'd wager.

What really sucks for the PLQ is they looked like they had a pretty good chance of becoming Quebec's natural governing party, at least for a while.

I still haven't figured out all of the true reasons for this slide.

I mean, Anglade tried to steer the PLQ in a more nationalist direction last year in a bid to appeal to francophones, but now they're already backtracking on that.

I am wondering if the party brass and grassroots haven't rapped her on the knuckles and brought her back into line.

The thing is that when the PLQ got 30-35% of the francophone vote as it often has in the past, that meant that even though it's always been kinda seen as "the party of anglos (and allophones who align with anglos)", most PLQ voters were still francophones.

With the PLQ in the 10% range among francophones, that means that the PLQ voter base tips a lot more heavily towards anglos and "anglo-allos".

While I don’t think the whole allo/anglo thing will ever go away in Quebec politics, is there another factor at play perhaps?

The urban-rural split. With the suburbs are the swing areas. Where go the suburbs, go the province.

Looking at Ontario’s political history and seeing the parallels between the two provinces is interesting. The Ontario Liberal Party ruled the province from 2003-18, cruising to power on the back of the GTA. The PCs floundered, until Doug connected with suburban Toronto voters. Same with the PLQ mostly, until Legault’s CAQ upended that.

The elites of McGuinty/Charest/Wynne/Couillard got out of touch, too confident of victory, too secure in their city stronghold, until Ford/Legault upended the game.

Just spitballing.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

While I don’t think the whole allo/anglo thing will ever go away in Quebec politics, is there another factor at play perhaps?

The urban-rural split. With the suburbs are the swing areas. Where go the suburbs, go the province.

Looking at Ontario’s political history and seeing the parallels between the two provinces is interesting. The Ontario Liberal Party ruled the province from 2003-18, cruising to power on the back of the GTA. The PCs floundered, until Doug connected with suburban Toronto voters. Same with the PLQ mostly, until Legault’s CAQ upended that.

The elites of McGuinty/Charest/Wynne/Couillard got out of touch, too confident of victory, too secure in their city stronghold, until Ford/Legault upended the game.

Just spitballing.

Yes, to a point.

But increasingly the urbanite element in the equation is not embodied by the PLQ but by Québec solidaire. That is who the hipster francophones, allophones and even to some degree anglophones vote for.

The PLQ are really at risk of becoming a rump enclave party.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Ironically, PLQ leader Dominique Anglade was not that long ag quite involved with the CAQ, even serving as the president of the party.

She left the CAQ and then joined the Liberals in 2015.

I don't know what her reasons were for making that move but I guess it looked like a good idea at the time.

Not so much in 2022.

She left because of immigration and religious symbols policies at the CAQ. The fact that by joining the Liberals she would become a minister and be part of a government in a good economic position (therefore more likely to be reelected) probably did play a part in her decision...

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by big T

It’s a shame for Anglade though, she seems like a moderately competent leader who just happened to pick the wrong lane as traffic was backing up.

Parties like the PLQ tend to get in trouble as soon as they lose power. I mean, running on keeping the good times rolling by making the other guys look scary/incompetent/racist/whatever is one thing they do fairly well, but when you’re no longer the incumbent all you have to sell is ideas. At least in North America we rarely have time to go beyond the crass caricature, and when it comes down to it you need a clear brand. QS is brainy communism, CAQ is ethno identity and blue collar values, PQ is admittedly in trouble but can still hold onto the nation building thing, but the Libs… what is it they stand for again? Beyond “not independence” and “corruption”, I mean. What’s the big projet de société?

So, back to this Anglade as a competent leader idea. Admittedly she hasn’t done well with the libs but the challenges were considerable, and COVID ensured the governing party took up all the oxygen for two full years. If she had any grand plans to establish a much needed brand, she never got a chance to execute. I still hope we get to see how she does in less turbulent times (with the libs or other).

The PLQ has a problem, it is a superhero but to exist it needs a supervillain. The PQ and the referedum played that part for about 40 years. Without the threat of a referendum, the PLQ lost its main battle cry (no wonder they recently tried to pretend that Legault was about to have another referendum).

Even in fhe wanted more provincial autonimy, francophones who didn't want a referendum had no real choice but to vote for the PLQ, even if the PLQ became sometime aplaventriste* in front of the federal government.
Now, they can vote for a party that has a similar outlook at economic policies as the PLQ but not as submissive in front of Ottawa, even whitout threatening to hold a referendum.

*I think the closest translation for aplaventriste would be servile

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

The PLQ has a problem, it is a superhero but to exist it needs a supervillain. The PQ and the referedum played that part for about 40 years. Without the threat of a referendum, the PLQ lost its main battle cry (no wonder they recently tried to pretend that Legault was about to have another referendum).

Even in fhe wanted more provincial autonimy, francophones who didn't want a referendum had no real choice but to vote for the PLQ, even if the PLQ became sometime aplaventriste* in front of the federal government.
Now, they can vote for a party that has a similar outlook at economic policies as the PLQ but not as submissive in front of Ottawa, even whitout threatening to hold a referendum.

*I think the closest translation for aplaventriste would be servile

This is very true. And the PQ is also facing a similar existential crisis (and decline) as the PLQ, largely for the same reason.