Dead Malls of Canada

[Gresto]

The white leather chair with the shart spatter on it is a nice touch.

[MolsonExport]

when you sell a lot of shit, you need a receptacle for it when it inevitably comes back. yes, at any given point in time, there are perhaps thousands of people camping out in Walmart's parking lots across North America. i think they like the view.

[urbandreamer]

I've slept in a few Walmart parking lots. Many French and Indo Canadians like doing this too, especially in their minivans, Teslas and RVs. I do like their consistently clean bathrooms and anonymous self checkouts. I wish they'd have a better fresh fruit and vegetable selection. I even bought a decent sleeping bag at Walmart in Sudbury for $45.

Today I went to Upper Canada mall in Newmarket for the first time: the busiest Hudson's Bay location I've been in. I also explored King City - beautiful new library and seniors centre, and they're building hideous mcmansions and new condos everywhere wow.

Probably the worst mall I went in this year was Cambridge Centre.

[O-tacular]

Now you can tour the GTA’s dead malls:

https://www.blogto.com/city/2024/01/...ead-mall-tour/

[J.OT13]

Anyone else miss indoor malls? I was at Ottawa's trainyards yesterday, a late 2000s monstrosity of a "Smart" Centre, a giant parking lot with single storey retail building plopped all over. You have to drive to each store. Such a depressing experience and a waste of space.



VIA Rail and Tremblay O-Train are at the top left of the image. Not accessible to the "Smart" Centre or the office buildings across the tracks.

Indoor malls were much more enjoyable. You parked your car, OR, get this, TOOK TRANSIT, walked in and did all your shopping indoors in one shot. You could make a day of it, hang out with family and friends. "Smart" Centres feel more like a chore while malls were a fun outing.

[Djeffery]

I like the power centre if I'm going to one place. I do still like going to the mall every once in a while and wandering around with no specific shopping in mind though. Not the same fun experience as when I was a teenager. I remember spending hours at White Oaks Mall in London in the early 80's and only part of that being at the arcade. Always knew someone at the food court. Walk around the sports section of Woolco, go to the several record shops. Always something cool at the It Store or Den For Men lol.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Anyone else miss indoor malls? I was at Ottawa's trainyards yesterday, a late 2000s monstrosity of a "Smart" Centre, a giant parking lot with single storey retail building plopped all over. You have to drive to each store. Such a depressing experience and a waste of space.

....

Indoor malls were much more enjoyable. You parked your car, OR, get this, TOOK TRANSIT, walked in and did all your shopping indoors in one shot. You could make a day of it, hang out with family and friends. "Smart" Centres feel more like a chore while malls were a fun outing.

Your fun comes at a massive cost to tenants of the mall. There's a reason they are dying out. The cost really isn't worth the revenue they bring in.

Smart Centres may not be what you like. But it's absolutely what we deserve. It's the ultimate (and logical) conclusion of car-centric design meeting big box stores. How else do you provide that much parking for cheap in front of every single store?

In places that prioritize walkability, they'll have large pedestrianized districts or arcades (with covered alleys) for shopping. But if you need to make sure that every store has massive amounts of parking right at their front door and that parking has to be cheap, there's only one solution.

[MolsonExport]

^I get that. Completely. The Smart Centres are an outcome of our car-centric culture, not an antecedent to it. That having been said, I also miss the malls of my eighties youth. I can't believe I am saying it, for having derided malls as dull mausoleums of materialism, but as others have pointed out, it was a place to go, park once, and hit a bunch of stores, engage in comparative shopping, hang out in the food court, walk around, see people and be seen....Dumbcentres offer none of these benefits. They are exceedingly hideous in their banality. Basically, every store nowadays has the charm and layout of a Canadian Tire. Which is to say, zero charm and awful canyon-like, confusing layout. 100K SKUs but you still can't find what you are looking for.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Always knew someone at the food court. Walk around the sports section of Woolco, go to the several record shops. Always something cool at the It Store or Den For Men lol.

I remember those days fondly.

I loved the It Store.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

^I get that. Completely. The Smart Centres are an outcome of our car-centric culture, not an antecedent to it. That having been said, I also miss the malls of my eighties youth. I can't believe I am saying it, for having derided malls as dull mausoleums of materialism, but as others have pointed out, it was a place to go, park once, and hit a bunch of stores, engage in comparative shopping, hang out in the food court, walk around, see people and be seen....Dumbcentres offer none of these benefits. They are exceedingly hideous in their banality. Basically, every store nowadays has the charm and layout of a Canadian Tire. Which is to say, zero charm and awful canyon-like, confusing layout. 100K SKUs but you still can't find what you are looking for.

What we need as properly pedestrianized or at least pedestrian friendly shopping streets. They can achieve most of what a mall offered, for cheaper. But a ton of suburbanites keep fighting this stuff. Even in downtown areas where they don't live.

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

^I get that. Completely. The Smart Centres are an outcome of our car-centric culture, not an antecedent to it. That having been said, I also miss the malls of my eighties youth. I can't believe I am saying it, for having derided malls as dull mausoleums of materialism, but as others have pointed out, it was a place to go, park once, and hit a bunch of stores, engage in comparative shopping, hang out in the food court, walk around, see people and be seen....Dumbcentres offer none of these benefits. They are exceedingly hideous in their banality. Basically, every store nowadays has the charm and layout of a Canadian Tire. Which is to say, zero charm and awful canyon-like, confusing layout. 100K SKUs but you still can't find what you are looking for.

I think you need a visit to Bari. I hear that they are on the edge of a retail precipice.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Your fun comes at a massive cost to tenants of the mall. There's a reason they are dying out. The cost really isn't worth the revenue they bring in.

Smart Centres may not be what you like. But it's absolutely what we deserve. It's the ultimate (and logical) conclusion of car-centric design meeting big box stores. How else do you provide that much parking for cheap in front of every single store?

In places that prioritize walkability, they'll have large pedestrianized districts or arcades (with covered alleys) for shopping. But if you need to make sure that every store has massive amounts of parking right at their front door and that parking has to be cheap, there's only one solution.

That’s changing. My brother in law is a GM at Indigo and recently told me they are moving away from the massive power centre locations as they are too expensive. He said other retailers are starting to reexamine smaller locations in indoor malls. Mentioned Marks Work Warehouse doing that with some locations recently. I’ve also noticed some power centers being harder to fill these days.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

^I get that. Completely. The Smart Centres are an outcome of our car-centric culture, not an antecedent to it. That having been said, I also miss the malls of my eighties youth. I can't believe I am saying it, for having derided malls as dull mausoleums of materialism, but as others have pointed out, it was a place to go, park once, and hit a bunch of stores, engage in comparative shopping, hang out in the food court, walk around, see people and be seen....Dumbcentres offer none of these benefits. They are exceedingly hideous in their banality. Basically, every store nowadays has the charm and layout of a Canadian Tire. Which is to say, zero charm and awful canyon-like, confusing layout. 100K SKUs but you still can't find what you are looking for.

Since having young kids we’ve rediscovered the joy of shopping malls. Especially in winter time. It’s funny because the demographics skew heavily to young families, retirees and teenagers. During weekdays especially moms with kids and the elderly. It’s actually kind of sweet how people always smile and come to see the babies and say nice things. A special perk of this oftentimes difficult phase.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Since having young kids we’ve rediscovered the joy of shopping malls. Especially in winter time. It’s funny because the demographics skew heavily to young families, retirees and teenagers. During weekdays especially moms with kids and the elderly. It’s actually kind of sweet how people always smile and come to see the babies and say nice things. A special perk of this oftentimes difficult phase.

In Europe or Asia it is pretty common to have kid friendly facilities in malls as an additional revenue stream and to drive traffic. It is weird how North American malls neglect a pretty obvious source of revenue.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

That’s changing. My brother in law is a GM at Indigo and recently told me they are moving away from the massive power centre locations as they are too expensive. He said other retailers are starting to reexamine smaller locations in indoor malls. Mentioned Marks Work Warehouse doing that with some locations recently. I’ve also noticed some power centers being harder to fill these days.

Retail in general is overbuilt in North America. So I'm sure there's some rebalancing going on. That said, the rate at which malls are being redeveloped doesn't bode well for the format.

Originally Posted by acottawa

In Europe or Asia it is pretty common to have kid friendly facilities in malls as an additional revenue stream and to drive traffic. It is weird how North American malls neglect a pretty obvious source of revenue.

Goes back to cost. Private operators can make the economics work there. Harder here. Fire whatever reason. The only thing I ever see at malls is the play places for pre-schoolers or the buggies dressed up like animals that you have to pay an arm and a leg to ride.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by acottawa

In Europe or Asia it is pretty common to have kid friendly facilities in malls as an additional revenue stream and to drive traffic. It is weird how North American malls neglect a pretty obvious source of revenue.

The main mall we go to has a play area for preschoolers and nursing rooms for moms. There’s also family bathrooms (which have been ruined for me since seeing a group of teens enter one for nefarious reasons).

[J.OT13]

"Smart" Centres could be vastly improved by building the retail along the street edge, with housing on top and surface parking lots at the back. Very simple to make them far more pedestrian and transit friendly.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Retail in general is overbuilt in North America. So I'm sure there's some rebalancing going on. That said, the rate at which malls are being redeveloped doesn't bode well for the format.



Goes back to cost. Private operators can make the economics work there. Harder here. Fire whatever reason. The only thing I ever see at malls is the play places for pre-schoolers or the buggies dressed up like animals that you have to pay an arm and a leg to ride.

I’ve never rented one of those buggies, especially since Covid. Why rent some germ infested cart when you can just use your own stroller or wagon?

As for indoor malls and tenants I agree they are struggling. It is interesting though to see the mix of tenants. I’ve noticed normal big box stuff like Sleep Country and Dollarama starting to set up shop in the malls. Same with Decathlon and Winners and Petland. An old Sears flagship store (where I used to work) now houses those 3 and an Earls. The third floor remains a liminal concrete shell that you only see lit up through the windows at night.

The other anchor tenants include The Bay, Old Navy, H&M, Restoration Hardware and Crate and Barrel. There is also now a flagship Ardene (Molson would approve) that took up like 6 stores. It’s actually nice looking and not like the other depressing locations. Funny enough my mother in law bought some pants from it (so not just for 12 year olds anymore). Then of course there’s Claire’s and other standard fare like Spencer’s, Hot Topic and Sunrise Records. Several coffee places and a couple toy stores. A few I have no idea how they survive like Bath Bomb.

[WhipperSnapper]

The United States is not only grossly overbuilt in retail but, almost ever use including housing. 10% in rental housing vacancy is considered balanced. Canada, the land of oligopolies, is quite different.

The failure in early big box design .. boxes thrown about a sea of parking ... is the traffic chaos within the development that ensues. I don't know about the rest of Canada. New Big box development in the GTA is alot more organized closer in design to an open air mall or high street.

The GTA malls that are endangered have struggled from day one. Often it's the ownership's financial inabilities are at fault. Those that reached their potential and are being updated to remain current with trends are in good shape.

There's just as many grandoise redevelopments for malls as there are for big box. Clearly Smart or Riocan have concerns with their big box assets and are planning in advance in case they need to exit on them.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

That’s changing. My brother in law is a GM at Indigo and recently told me they are moving away from the massive power centre locations as they are too expensive. He said other retailers are starting to reexamine smaller locations in indoor malls. Mentioned Marks Work Warehouse doing that with some locations recently. I’ve also noticed some power centers being harder to fill these days.

The two closest Indigo locations to me are both inside malls - Lougheed Town Centre and Metrotown. The latter is often very busy, particularly around the holidays.