PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread II

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

So trying to build a city where we don't burden our citizens with $500+ a month in bills just to pay for transportation is some sort of white liberal thing. Gotcha. If we don't build bike infrastructure, people won't ride bikes. We can induce more car demand by building more car infrastructure or we can build a city that prioritizes people. It's not holier-than-thou to point out the fact that car infrastructure is fundamentally unsustainable. Old school Philadelphians rode street cars, not drove cars.

I don't think anyone is saying that. People are saying it's not a top issue for most, particularly in the current environment. For me, the top issues are crime, cleanliness of the city, taxes, schools, efficiency of services (i.e currently at zero). Bike infrastructure is relevant to me but literally no where in my reasons for voting for the Chief Executive of the 5th biggest city in America for god's sake. TBH I care more about the airport, SEPTA, and even the port than I care about bikes.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

I don't think anyone is saying that. People are saying it's not a top issue for most, particularly in the current environment. For me, the top issues are crime, cleanliness of the city, taxes, schools, efficiency of services (i.e currently at zero). Bike infrastructure is relevant to me but literally no where in my reasons for voting for the Chief Executive of the 5th biggest city in America for god's sake. TBH I care more about the airport, SEPTA, and even the port than I care about bikes.

Increasing the safety of the pedestrian experience in one of the most dense and populated urban areas in North America is a priority for me, shocking I know. We can do more than one thing at the same time.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

Increasing the safety of the pedestrian experience in one of the most dense and populated urban areas in North America is a priority for me, shocking I know. We can do more than one thing at the same time.

You're right. And there's nothing to say about Rhynhart that would leave you to believe she doesn't care about pedestrians or bikers. I just happen to think she wins across the board for every other top issue.

If Gym wins she'll have fiscal policies that aren't much different from those of Frank Rizzo from 2 generations ago. We're still digging out from that mess.

She can say everything she wants (even though she hasn't really said that much at all tbh), but if her solution for implementing it is that she's going to raise taxes and or halt the incremental cuts to the business taxes we've had over the past two decades, then its quite simply a non-starter.

That in reality is her plan. She won't admit to it and her followers have their heads in the ground. And for some reason she hasn't been held to account.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

You're right. And there's nothing to say about Rhynhart that would leave you to believe she doesn't care about pedestrians or bikers. I just happen to think she wins across the board for every other top issue.

If Gym wins she'll have fiscal policies that aren't much different from those of Frank Rizzo from 2 generations ago. We're still digging out from that mess.

She can say everything she wants (even though she hasn't really said that much at all tbh), but if her solution for implementing it is that she's going to raise taxes and or halt the incremental cuts to the business taxes we've had over the past two decades, then its quite simply a non-starter.

That in reality is her plan. She won't admit to it and her followers have their heads in the ground. And for some reason she hasn't been held to account.

See this is why I can talk politics here. We all disagree sometimes but we’re civil about it. I’m a Rhynhart supporter, so I agree with you generally. Hopefully we have an answer tonight.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

It's about having opinions not to drive. No one is saying ban cars or you can use a bike for your business. We are saying give use options so that we don't have to depend on a car. What happens if you(anyone) can't drive anymore, how are you suppose to get around? We don't need more car lanes. Car users will be just fine with the current traffic levels. Not every job requires you to drive to a job site.

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

I always want to ask this when someone responds to a request for more bike infrastructure like this. How do you think they do landscaping in the Netherlands? Do you think they just carry all of their tools around in backpacks? Building better bike infrastructure makes it easier and more pleasant to drive, not worse. Inducing bike demand reduces car demand which makes your (and everyone else that hates sitting in traffic) lives easier because we're removing vehicles from the road. There is no other long-term option to accommodate population growth except reducing car dependence unless you want Houston-style 20 lane freeways. We already did enough damage to thriving minority communities with that mindset post-WW2.

You’re missing the point. Black neighborhoods do not ride bikes like the white progressive neighborhoods.

Its just a different reality in those neighborhoods where cars are needed to get around & transport family & items. It is not feasible for majority of families to ride bikes & that goes for all races in all parts of the city as well.

Bike lanes can cause more harm then good in some areas due to taking away already limited street parking or being a nuance due to loading & cyclist bitching if you even park in one for 5 minutes just to load or unload im front of your house.

A single female/male with no kids or anything can easily hop on a bike & go to trader joes or to work, but for majority of people thats not realistic & it never will be.

There’s also 600,000+ Cars registered to people in the city while there are only 10,000+ Cyclists, the numbers do not make sense for putting bike lanes over vehicles.

Now if we are talking about pedestrian & sidewalk improvements thats 100% an issue & it needs to be addressed

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

You’re missing the point. Black neighborhoods do not ride bikes like the white progressive neighborhoods.

Its just a different reality in those neighborhoods where cars are needed to get around & transport family & items. It is not feasible for majority of families to ride bikes & that goes for all races in all parts of the city as well.

Bike lanes can cause more harm then good in some areas due to taking away already limited street parking or being a nuance due to loading & cyclist bitching if you even park in one for 5 minutes just to load or unload im front of your house.

A single female/male with no kids or anything can easily hop on a bike & go to trader joes or to work, but for majority of people thats not realistic & it never will be.

There’s also 600,000+ Cars registered to people in the city while there are only 10,000+ Cyclists, the numbers do not make sense for putting bike lanes over vehicles.

Now if we are talking about pedestrian & sidewalk improvements thats 100% an issue & it needs to be addressed

Just because black residents don't currently commute by bike as much as whites do, and I don't have any data to support that contention, how does that change any of what I said? You induce bike demand by building safe biking infrastructure. You encourage people to drive by expanding car infrastructure. Maybe black residents don't bike as much (again, can you point to any data on this?) because we don't invest in the infrastructure in those neighborhoods? They're adding lots of bike lanes in neighborhoods in West Philly so we'll see what happens to biking numbers. Throwing up our hands and inducing more car demand because "the culture is different here" just seems like the wrong approach to me.

Edit: also, not to take us off topic, because I think this a good debate, but returns are starting to come in. Gym is in 4th at the moment with 24% in. Parker leading Rhynhart by 64 votes. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...hia-mayor.html

[3rd&Brown]

Looks like Parker is going to win and by quite a large margin. Can't say I'm totally surprised given the dynamics of the race and the electorate. I'd rather her than Gym tbh but it just feels like a missed opportunity.

She'll certainly care more than Kenney, so that's a good portion of the battle.

The NW Coalition played this right by getting Green and Sanchez to drop out of the race some time ago.

[DeltaNerd]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

You’re missing the point. Black neighborhoods do not ride bikes like the white progressive neighborhoods.

Its just a different reality in those neighborhoods where cars are needed to get around & transport family & items. It is not feasible for majority of families to ride bikes & that goes for all races in all parts of the city as well.

Bike lanes can cause more harm then good in some areas due to taking away already limited street parking or being a nuance due to loading & cyclist bitching if you even park in one for 5 minutes just to load or unload im front of your house.

A single female/male with no kids or anything can easily hop on a bike & go to trader joes or to work, but for majority of people thats not realistic & it never will be.

There’s also 600,000+ Cars registered to people in the city while there are only 10,000+ Cyclists, the numbers do not make sense for putting bike lanes over vehicles.

Now if we are talking about pedestrian & sidewalk improvements thats 100% an issue & it needs to be addressed

What are you talking about, black people in poor neighborhoods absolutely rides bikes. Every time you invest in bike infrastructure you have more bike riders. Plus more traffic calming. Do you not see the speeding and sidewalk parking going on? Don't you think that's a problem? Black people will ride bikes, along with Latinos and Asians if bike infrastructure is there.
More car lanes will add to the speeding problem that we already have.

[DeltaNerd]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Looks like Parker is going to win and by quite a large margin. Can't say I'm totally surprised given the dynamics of the race and the electorate. I'd rather her than Gym tbh but it just feels like a missed opportunity.

She'll certainly care more than Kenney, so that's a good portion of the battle.

The NW Coalition played this right by getting Green and Sanchez to drop out of the race some time ago.

I'm surprised she is most likely going to win by like 35% or something, insane. Gym and RR split the "progressive" vote. Jeff Brown should have dropped out a long time ago.

[Mtphilly]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Looks like Parker is going to win and by quite a large margin. Can't say I'm totally surprised given the dynamics of the race and the electorate. I'd rather her than Gym tbh but it just feels like a missed opportunity.

She'll certainly care more than Kenney, so that's a good portion of the battle.

The NW Coalition played this right by getting Green and Sanchez to drop out of the race some time ago.

Yeah this is one of those situations where I simultaneously feel happy that Gym didn’t win but feel like this was a missed opportunity because Parker is so establishment. However, like you said she is going to care a lot more than Kenney which is what the city needs. I’m certainly willing to give her a chance.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

I'm surprised she is most likely going to win by like 35% or something, insane. Gym and RR split the "progressive" vote. Jeff Brown should have dropped out a long time ago.

She consolidated the black vote. Looking at the precinct by precinct returns that are in thus far, it definitely looks like the electorate is less racially polarized than in the past which is good news, but at the end of the day she is the only black candidate in a city that's 38% black.

TBH, at the precinct level, Brown came in 2nd most often in the black neighborhoods, which makes sense. If he were to have dropped out, I think those votes would have gone to Parker.

I'd say Rhynhart's totals would have improved most if Domb dropped out of the race. Everywhere in the NE that Domb carried Rhynhart came in #2. I couldn't see those voters pulling for Gym if he weren't in the race, but I could see them pulling for Rhynhart. He also came in 2nd to Rhynhart in many Center City precincts.

But that was never going to happen. There were 3 megalomaniacs (Domb, Brown, Gym) in this race and 2 of them were self funded. None of them was going to drop out.

My take is Rhynhart and Domb split the good government technocrat vote and Gym was in her own lane on the left flank of the party running as an idealog.

[mcgrath618]

So much for the Gym sweep we were told about…
Not the worst outcome of this election.

[3rd&Brown]

So it's official. Parker wins. I'm sanguine about it but not riddled with anxiety the way I would have been had Gym won.

I will say this. Someday young idealistic progressives will realize that there is strategy in politics and perfect can't be the enemy of good. I'm sure nearly every Gym supporter would have rather Rhynhart win than Parker but here we are. I can't say the opposite is true (ie. Rhynhart supporters going for Gym).

In any case, I 100% believe there is a place for the most progressive wing of the Democratic party in legislative bodies. In fact, I demand it. In those bodies they nudge the overall party left and play a necessary role as agitators and good government types. But it's very difficult for the most progressive flank of the party to win at the executive level (Governor, Mayor, even Senator). And frankly, by virtue of their stances of purity, I think it would be difficult for most of them to even function or govern successfully in executive government roles. You can't build consensus as an ideolog. Period.

Anyways...what played out here is exactly what played out in the NYC mayoral race. The most conservative candidate (Adams) won because of progressive idealogical tests. The outcome is the same here today.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

What are you talking about, black people in poor neighborhoods absolutely rides bikes. Every time you invest in bike infrastructure you have more bike riders. Plus more traffic calming. Do you not see the speeding and sidewalk parking going on? Don't you think that's a problem? Black people will ride bikes, along with Latinos and Asians if bike infrastructure is there.
More car lanes will add to the speeding problem that we already have.

Sure thats why there's all those bike lanes in SW & North right?

Majority of black just do not ride bikes, and it's just like that, putting bike lanes in black neighborhoods is not gonna make people ride bikes, it's been like that for a long time, and it's going to continue to be like that.

And cmon man you're speaking to a black person who ya know speaks to other black people, has friends who are black, and ya know linage that is black.

I'm not saying no one does, but its not enough to warrant bike lanes, more pedestrian improvements, lighting improvements, tree planting, and housing grants in black neighborhoods is a much more serious need then bike lanes.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by allovertown

I know a lot of people though. Just saying, a lot of people here seem to think Gym winning would be an apocalypse, so perhaps they should prepare for the end times because I think she's gonna run away with this.

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

So much for the Gym sweep we were told about…
Not the worst outcome of this election.

CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM PLAYS.....

• Video Link

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

She consolidated the black vote. Looking at the precinct by precinct returns that are in thus far, it definitely looks like the electorate is less racially polarized than in the past which is good news, but at the end of the day she is the only black candidate in a city that's 38% black.

TBH, at the precinct level, Brown came in 2nd most often in the black neighborhoods, which makes sense. If he were to have dropped out, I think those votes would have gone to Parker.

I'd say Rhynhart's totals would have improved most if Domb dropped out of the race. Everywhere in the NE that Domb carried Rhynhart came in #2. I couldn't see those voters pulling for Gym if he weren't in the race, but I could see them pulling for Rhynhart. He also came in 2nd to Rhynhart in many Center City precincts.

But that was never going to happen. There were 3 megalomaniacs (Domb, Brown, Gym) in this race and 2 of them were self funded. None of them was going to drop out.

My take is Rhynhart and Domb split the good government technocrat vote and Gym was in her own lane on the left flank of the party running as an idealog.

What's interesting to me about the Election Map is the fact that Domb Basically won over Kensington, but not S. Philly.

Parker Absolutely carried the black voting blocs, and it should be remembered that those blocs will always determine the results of ant election, that are the strongest when brought together.

Also Amen Brown, Jeff Brown & James Deleon should have dropped out a long time ago those were all votes that should have went to Dumb or Rhynhart.

In a perfect world the clear battle should have been Just Rhynhart V.s Parker, then we really would have seen who would have won.

And also Great Win Tonight Gym Fans

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

So it's official. Parker wins. I'm sanguine about it but not riddled with anxiety the way I would have been had Gym won.

I will say this. Someday young idealistic progressives will realize that there is strategy in politics and perfect can't be the enemy of good. I'm sure nearly every Gym supporter would have rather Rhynhart win than Parker but here we are. I can't say the opposite is true (ie. Rhynhart supporters going for Gym).

In any case, I 100% believe there is a place for the most progressive wing of the Democratic party in legislative bodies. In fact, I demand it. In those bodies they nudge the overall party left and play a necessary role as agitators and good government types. But it's very difficult for the most progressive flank of the party to win at the executive level (Governor, Mayor, even Senator). And frankly, by virtue of their stances of purity, I think it would be difficult for most of them to even function or govern successfully in executive government roles. You can't build consensus as an ideolog. Period.

Anyways...what played out here is exactly what played out in the NYC mayoral race. The most conservative candidate (Adams) won because of progressive idealogical tests. The outcome is the same here today.

And just like in NYC the centrists blame the left flank for not supporting their guy... as though they're owed our vote instead of vice versa.

It looks like Gym and Rhynhart will finish very closely grouped together in 2nd and 3rd. Gym is not some fringe candidate. She was very much in this just as much as Rhynhart and I'm not sure why you think 20% of Philadelphia should just voluntarily vote for their second choice when their first choice had just as strong of a chance.

Acting like Gym voters are guileless, naïve fools for supporting their preferred candidate, while Rhynhart voters are savvy and strategic for supporting a candidate who is going to end up in the exact same spot as Gym. Lol you're really something.

And again, I am speaking as someone who did not view Gym as a perfect candidate and was very willing to consider Rhynhart! Rhynhart initially seemed very appealing but as the race went on she definitely seemed to drift to the right as she tried to find her place in the race to court as many voters as possible. I don't begrudge her that strategy, but it just makes it even more absurd to wonder why Gym voters did not flock to her. It definitely did not seem like Rhynhart was at all trying to court my vote in those last two debates.

In a primary with 5 candidates receiving significant votes though it really is a shame that ranked choice voting isn't used. Assuming Rhynhart was likely the second choice for nearly every Gym voter and many Domb voters as well, seems hard to imagine she wouldn't have won if such a system was in place and many more Philadelphians would be happy right now.

Oh well, it is what it is. At least Jeff Brown or Allan Domb didn't win. Nothing funnier than a rich dummy wasting a bunch of their own money to get their ass kicked in an election and tonight we were blessed with seeing two rich dummies get their asses kicked. Truly a special night.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

Increasing the safety of the pedestrian experience in one of the most dense and populated urban areas in North America is a priority for me, shocking I know. We can do more than one thing at the same time.

It's forever weird to me but people do not weigh all dangers to themselves evenly. Getting killed by a car is just not as scary to people as getting shot for whatever reason. Personally I'm agnostic about how I die, I'd just prefer not to die.

In the past ten years murders have been about 3 to 4 times higher than traffic fatalities, however considering the extreme concentration of murders in Philadelphia in just a few neighborhoods, it seems pretty likely that in many Philadelphia neighborhoods your odds of dying in a traffic accident would be just as high, if not higher, than being murdered. And yet crime is a very serious problem for very serious people and increasing road safety is some idiotic joke that only weirdos who ride bicycles care about.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by allovertown

And just like in NYC the centrists blame the left flank for not supporting their guy... as though they're owed our vote instead of vice versa.

It looks like Gym and Rhynhart will finish very closely grouped together in 2nd and 3rd. Gym is not some fringe candidate. She was very much in this just as much as Rhynhart and I'm not sure why you think 20% of Philadelphia should just voluntarily vote for their second choice when their first choice had just as strong of a chance.

Acting like Gym voters are guileless, naïve fools for supporting their preferred candidate, while Rhynhart voters are savvy and strategic for supporting a candidate who is going to end up in the exact same spot as Gym. Lol you're really something.

And again, I am speaking as someone who did not view Gym as a perfect candidate and was very willing to consider Rhynhart! Rhynhart initially seemed very appealing but as the race went on she definitely seemed to drift to the right as she tried to find her place in the race to court as many voters as possible. I don't begrudge her that strategy, but it just makes it even more absurd to wonder why Gym voters did not flock to her. It definitely did not seem like Rhynhart was at all trying to court my vote in those last two debates.

In a primary with 5 candidates receiving significant votes though it really is a shame that ranked choice voting isn't used. Assuming Rhynhart was likely the second choice for nearly every Gym voter and many Domb voters as well, seems hard to imagine she wouldn't have won if such a system was in place and many more Philadelphians would be happy right now.

Oh well, it is what it is. At least Jeff Brown or Allan Domb didn't win. Nothing funnier than a rich dummy wasting a bunch of their own money to get their ass kicked in an election and tonight we were blessed with seeing two rich dummies get their asses kicked. Truly a special night.

Gym’s support almost exactly mapped the actively gentrifying parts of the city. I thought that was kind of funny.

[KDD]

I voted for Rhynhart and I don't quite get why people are comparing her to Gym. I was never going to vote for Gym. It was between Rhynhart and Parker for me and policies aside, I found Gym to inauthentic at best, an absolute hypocrite at worst.

Fought against charter schools? Then founded one
Wants to fight opioids? Only person on city council to vote against that effort (which may have benefited her household's bottom line)
Attacked others for their non Philly donations? Called on a New Yorker and a Vermonter at the last minute to boost her.

There is a laundry list of things that rubbed me the wrong way. Same way many on the right hate Ted Cruz.

EDIT: Forgot my favorite: Called the Union League racist, then had drinks with them that weekend. LOL