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  #1521  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2022, 10:47 PM
originalmuffins originalmuffins is offline
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Also seems like the younger generation is more accepting of not just seeing themselves as Quebecers but accepting their Canadian-ness and culture. I really hope they can finally move past it, because Quebec's history is very important to Canada as a whole. The whole secession movements in Alberta and Quebec (or modern attempts to) don't sit well with me, we all work better together than not.
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  #1522  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2022, 1:43 AM
YOWetal YOWetal is online now
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
We saw what happened during the last period of great uncertainty. During that time, Montreal really faded as a city. Since the issue has calmed down, Montreal is booming.
Personally a lot of what makes Montreal great is because of the financial and corporate flight of early eighties not despite this exodus. The affordable housing, focus on arts and French character are all helped by this. Yes Montreal would have a more vibrant multicultural community and more jobs especially for university grads but overall I think it's a net plus. For sure the modern architecture in Toronto dwarfs Montreal but who knows how many more old neighbourhoods would have been razed.
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  #1523  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2022, 3:04 AM
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Personally a lot of what makes Montreal great is because of the financial and corporate flight of early eighties not despite this exodus. The affordable housing, focus on arts and French character are all helped by this. Yes Montreal would have a more vibrant multicultural community and more jobs especially for university grads but overall I think it's a net plus. For sure the modern architecture in Toronto dwarfs Montreal but who knows how many more old neighbourhoods would have been razed.
That is a take that I have never heard before. I don’t really see how a massive flight of population and wealth can be a net positive. Sure affordability was good, but I think that is the result of lots of factors. As someone who lived in Montreal in the 90s, I can say without a doubt that the resurgence of the last 20 years has made for a far more liveable and dynamic city. And it was made possible by political stability.
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  #1524  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2022, 3:34 PM
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Any ideas on where the Gatineau Tram plan sits with a CAQ win? Quebec Solidaire was keen on expanding electric tram plans, but I don't recall where the CAQ stands.
CAQ have already pledged 50%. That was done years ago. Who knows if that was 50% of the initial $2 Billion or so estimate (probably $3B-$4.5B now), or 50% full stop. Doubt they would fund any of the Ottawa portion of the project.

That said, it now rests on the Feds to decide how it will cross to Ottawa, if it will include the loop and what they are willing to fund.

Questions like what happens to Wellington Street and the Alexandra Bridge are also part of the conversation (one would hope).
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  #1525  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2022, 12:07 PM
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Oops...

Sounds like funding issues with the governments might force Gatineau to go another route... Wonder if it's just scaremongering to get the feds and province to work it out or if it's really going to be scrapped.

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Le projet de tramway de Gatineau tel que présenté à la population pourrait être abandonné dès cet automne, a appris Le Droit.

Ce scénario qui était jusqu’à tout récemment non envisageable est plus sérieusement évoqué à la Ville de Gatineau depuis quelques semaines. «Il faut se repositionner», déclare la mairesse France Bélisle. L’incapacité du fédéral et du provincial à s’entendre sur le financement et la gestion du projet de transport interprovincial, identifié comme étant le plus compliqué du genre au Canada, force la Ville de Gatineau à une difficile remise en question du projet.

Changements au tracé, abandon du lien interprovincial ou encore révision du choix de la technologie; des questions qui ne se posaient pas il y a tout juste quelques mois commencent à se faire entendre dans les couloirs de la Maison du citoyen. La capacité de la Ville de Gatineau à planifier et réaliser les travaux d’envergure sur les infrastructures municipales qu’un projet sur rails commande demeure pour l’instant un point d’interrogation. Une présentation aux élus à cet effet, plus tard en octobre, serait d’ailleurs dans les cartons de la haute direction de la Ville.

Dans l’attente du financement fédéral pour les études d’avant-projet du tramway, estimées à 150 millions de dollars, les signes d’impatience de la part de la Ville et de la Société de transport de l’Outaouais (STO) se sont multipliés au cours des derniers mois. La nécessité de pouvoir rapidement passer à l’étape suivante sera de nouveau soulignée à grand trait, cette semaine, par la Ville de Gatineau.

« Le premier ministre du Québec m’a assuré de ses intentions de nous suivre dans nos besoins de transport. Le fédéral a également confirmé son intérêt. Tous les partis appuient une solution structurante, mais peut-être pas dans le modèle actuellement sur la table. » — France Bélisle, mairesse de Gatnau

Le «comité exécutif» du tramway de Gatineau, qui réunit le ministère des Transports du Québec (MTQ), Services publics et approvisionnement Canada (SPAC), la Ville de Gatineau, la Commission de la capitale nationale et la Ville d’Ottawa, doit se rencontrer vendredi. «On se donne encore le droit de rêver, mais la situation doit évoluer», affirme une source au cabinet de la mairesse. «Nous avons la responsabilité d’avoir une vision à long terme, mais nous avons des enjeux maintenant, a ajouté la mairesse. Il faut rapidement définir nos options. Ça fait huit ans qu’on parle d’un tramway qui prendra au bas mot plus de dix ans à se concrétiser. L’attente a assez duré.»

Les hauts fonctionnaires de la Ville de Gatineau douteraient fortement de la possibilité de voir un jour le gouvernement fédéral financer un projet interprovincial entièrement mené par un organisme gouvernemental québécois. Les écueils engendrés par les critères des programmes de financement fédéraux sur lesquels s’est entendu le gouvernement du Québec en 2017 ajouteraient à la complexité du dossier. Malgré les engagements politiques de trouver une voie de passage, le dossier fait du surplace depuis des mois.

«Il faut se repositionner»

La question a été abordée avec le premier ministre du Québec, François Legault, lors de sa dernière visite à Gatineau. Québec serait prêt à envisager, avec la Ville de Gatineau, un changement de projet. Le fédéral n’attendrait pour sa part qu’une proposition moins complexe pour investir des centaines de millions de dollars dans le transport en commun de Gatineau.

France Bélisle note que le projet de tramway actuellement proposé présente d’«immenses» enjeux de gouvernance qui fragilise sa réalisation. «Il faut se repositionner et proposer des phases dans le temps, avec des solutions à court, moyen et long terme, dit-elle. Ceci dit, le premier ministre du Québec m’a assuré de ses intentions de nous suivre dans nos besoins de transport. Le fédéral a également confirmé son intérêt. Tous les partis appuient une solution structurante, mais peut-être pas dans le modèle actuellement sur la table.»

La Ville prendrait le contrôle du projet
Depuis le début, le projet de tramway est sous la responsabilité de la STO, contrairement à la Ville de Québec qui elle est aux commandes de son projet de tramway. Le transporteur public des Gatinois agit donc comme maître d’œuvre et est le principal interlocuteur auprès des partenaires gouvernementaux. L’arrivée de l’administration Bélisle et de Simon Rousseau dans le poste de directeur général de la Ville de Gatineau viendrait changer la donne.

La création par M. Rousseau du nouveau service de la mobilité à la Ville de Gatineau qui sera dirigé par Catherine Marchand serait loin d’être étranger à la volonté de la Ville d’avoir un meilleur contrôle sur le projet structurant de l’ouest. Le président de la STO, Jocelyn Blondin, a été mis au courant des changements à venir, confirme le cabinet de Mme Bélisle.

«L’expérience de notre visite à Québec, et leurs moyens de faire avancer leur projet de transport structurant a été très éclairante, explique Mme Bélisle. La nouvelle structure proposée par le directeur général de la Ville, et la création du service de mobilité est une piste de solution concrète. Nous aurons aussi des discussions avec les équipes à l’interne. Nous ne les avons jamais entendues. Elles nous présenteront enfin leurs perspectives cet automne.»

La capacité de la Ville à réaliser les travaux d’infrastructures inhérents à ce projet demeurerait un point d’interrogation pour l’instant. Les gouvernements fédéral et provincial auraient des doutes à cet effet. Cet élément du dossier ferait partie de la présentation prévue à la fin du mois.

Interventions à court terme
La possibilité de voir le fédéral et le provincial s’entendre sur le financement du projet de tramway tel que présenter demeure dans le domaine du possible et n’est pas encore officiellement écartée, mais la Ville de Gatineau ne s’empêcherait plus d’élaborer des scénarios de remplacement qui pourraient faire l’objet d’un financement plus rapide de la part de gouvernement provincial et fédéral. Bien que les études jusqu’ici réalisées et publiées par la STO convergent toutes vers le tramway comme modèle à privilégier et que le projet bénéficie d’un appui politique clair de la part du conseil municipal de Gatineau, des scénarios de rechange seraient en préparation.

Ainsi, un service rapide par bus (SRB) entièrement électrique qui pourrait desservir l’ouest de la ville grâce à des voies dédiées et des parties de tracé en site propre, comme le Rapibus, pourrait refaire surface après avoir été mis de côté par l’étude de faisabilité de la STO. Un tel projet aurait l’avantage d’être moins lourd à porter pour la Ville puisqu’il nécessiterait moins de travaux d’envergure sur les infrastructures souterraines. Le tracé pourrait évidemment relier l’ouest au centre-ville de Gatineau, mais pourrait aussi être revu afin de prendre en considération la construction du futur hôpital de 600 lits sur la rue d’Edmonton, ce qui n’est pas le cas actuellement.

Gatineau souhaiterait obtenir l’aide financière de Québec rapidement afin d’améliorer son réseau de voies réservées au transport en commun, notamment sur le boulevard du Plateau. La Ville tenterait aussi d’accentuer la pression sur Québec pour accélérer le projet d’urbanisation du chemin Vanier, artère devenue névralgique dans l’ouest.

L’enjeu de l’arrimage avec le réseau de transport de la Ville d’Ottawa demeurerait toutefois entier. Le fédéral, affirme une source dans l’entourage de la mairesse Bélisle, pourrait être tenté de le régler en finançant un projet entièrement fédéral de boucle ferroviaire qui emprunterait le pont du Portage, la rue Wellington à Ottawa, le futur pont Alexandra et la rue Laurier à Gatineau.
https://www.ledroit.com/2022/10/06/t...179a9428603499
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  #1526  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2022, 1:31 PM
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What's so complicated. Quebec side should be split between the Feds and Province while the Ottawa side (as soon as it crosses the bridge) should be the Feds responsibility. Have the Feds or NCC own the tracks on Portage, Wellington and Alexandra and leased to the STO.

Very frustrating. Seems in 2018 the timeline was 10 years. Here we are in 2022 and we may have to reset. Seems to be the case with many projects in the region, especially Gatineau (new hospital promised within 5 years in 2018, by 2022, only the site was chosen and we're still 10 years to opening).
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  #1527  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2022, 3:15 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is online now
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
What's so complicated. Quebec side should be split between the Feds and Province while the Ottawa side (as soon as it crosses the bridge) should be the Feds responsibility. Have the Feds or NCC own the tracks on Portage, Wellington and Alexandra and leased to the STO.

Very frustrating. Seems in 2018 the timeline was 10 years. Here we are in 2022 and we may have to reset. Seems to be the case with many projects in the region, especially Gatineau (new hospital promised within 5 years in 2018, by 2022, only the site was chosen and we're still 10 years to opening).
That would end up as a very high split for the Feds on overall cost. Even 50% would be unprecedented. Not to be overly cynical but are there even any seats in play for Liberals?
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  #1528  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2022, 3:51 PM
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
Even 50% would be unprecedented.
The federal government saved the dead Hamilton LRT by funding 50%, it's definitely not unprecedented. You could have the province providing a bit more, like 60%, for the route in Gatineau and the feds paying for 100% of the Ottawa portion. That way it could come out to around 50/50 but solve a bit of the ownership issues.
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  #1529  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2022, 4:44 PM
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If this got scrapped, the Plateau would be a complete clusterfuck. The entire neighborhood is being master planned around future rapid transit. It's already far too dense for the road/bus network, with thousands more units under construction/approved.
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  #1530  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2022, 6:10 PM
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If they need to go back to the drawing board on this one, would love to see some out of the box thinking for building better connections across the river. Imagine if we had cable cars running from the end of ch. Vanier in Aylmet across to Lincoln Fields or from the tache/st Raymond intersection over to Westboro station. Would offer a cheap alternative to get residents of Aylmer downtown and integrate directly with the LRT
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  #1531  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2022, 12:46 AM
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Sounds like Bélisle is just going rogue. No one else is saying this. Even independent Councillor and head of the STO Jocelyn Blondin is saying there's no way we're messing with the project.

Bélisle is a weak Mayor. Always very negative about projects, be it City or Provincial (even on the hospital). When she beat Marquis-Bissonnette, I thought it's not the end of the world, but not so sure now.

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle...mway-belizaire
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  #1532  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2022, 1:11 AM
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Marquis-Bissonnette was so close! I may or may not have developed a massive crush on her after seeing her in person at the opening of the new library in the Plateau
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  #1533  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2022, 3:10 AM
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  #1534  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2022, 3:17 AM
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Bring on OG Transpo!!!! (Ottawa-Gatineau Transpo)
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  #1535  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2022, 5:25 PM
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I don't like a plan that focuses on the Bayview transfer, and gives precedence to Gatineau residents over Ottawa residents for access into the downtown tunnel when it was Ottawa residents who paid for it. Also, it is naive to think it will be affordable to build another subway under Rideau Street. How deep would a second subway have to be?
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  #1536  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2022, 6:03 PM
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Originally Posted by silvergate View Post
If they need to go back to the drawing board on this one, would love to see some out of the box thinking for building better connections across the river. Imagine if we had cable cars running from the end of ch. Vanier in Aylmet across to Lincoln Fields or from the tache/st Raymond intersection over to Westboro station. Would offer a cheap alternative to get residents of Aylmer downtown and integrate directly with the LRT
I think this is a bit exaggerated. The vast majority of these new residents will still be driving and 60% or 70% isn't going to break the road network. We certainly have lots of denser less connected developments in Canada.

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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I don't like a plan that focuses on the Bayview transfer, and gives precedence to Gatineau residents over Ottawa residents for access into the downtown tunnel when it was Ottawa residents who paid for it. Also, it is naive to think it will be affordable to build another subway under Rideau Street. How deep would a second subway have to be?
Ottawa will have to stand up for their interests. Something like a transfer into the tunnel charge (for STO or useres) or see STO pitch in say 50 million towards the tunnel. I know neither side would agree and instead we will have a surface route costing hundreds of millions but it's too bad we can't think outside the box a bit.
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  #1537  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2022, 8:18 PM
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
Ottawa will have to stand up for their interests. Something like a transfer into the tunnel charge (for STO or useres) or see STO pitch in say 50 million towards the tunnel. I know neither side would agree and instead we will have a surface route costing hundreds of millions but it's too bad we can't think outside the box a bit.
And any new tunnelling works has to support eventual expansion east and south out of downtown Ottawa.

If it doesn't do that, or worse, actively precludes such future options, then no.
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  #1538  
Old Posted Dec 3, 2022, 3:49 AM
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And any new tunnelling works has to support eventual expansion east and south out of downtown Ottawa.

If it doesn't do that, or worse, actively precludes such future options, then no.
Agreed. I fear another tunnel being underutilized if it only serves Gatineau without balancing traffic coming from another direction. We have already decided to not allow interlining within the existing tunnel, so we need to make the best possible use of a second tunnel.
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  #1539  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2022, 2:07 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I don't like a plan that focuses on the Bayview transfer, and gives precedence to Gatineau residents over Ottawa residents for access into the downtown tunnel when it was Ottawa residents who paid for it.
I would argue that people of Gatineau do pay a large part of the cost already. The Federal Funding was approx 33%, the provincial and municipal funding also has parts of funding that is devolved from indirect Federal transfers as well. So let's not be so narrow minded in our views on this subject

Furthermore, the economic activity from Gatineau residents coming into Ottawa to shop, play or work are huge for the city and province's coffers
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  #1540  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2023, 3:53 PM
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I don't like a plan that focuses on the Bayview transfer, and gives precedence to Gatineau residents over Ottawa residents for access into the downtown tunnel when it was Ottawa residents who paid for it.
I don't think there will ever be a Bayview transfer to get West Gatineau tramway passengers into downtown Ottawa. It just doesn't make sense and I doubt Gatineau or Quebec officials would go for that.

Is this really in any serious plans?

The West Gatineau tramway might include a transfer to get across to Ottawa, but if it happens that transfer point would almost certainly be somewhere in the vicinity of Portage, and intersect with some form of Ottawa-Gatineau downtown loop line, as has been discussed for decades.
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