Atlantic Highways Thread

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by ColSJ

There is no question NB has infrastructure for a population much larger than it actually has. With plenty of experience driving on the TCH, Route 1, and Highway 7 the driving standards on Highway 7 stick out like a sore thumb to me and I blame that entirely on the design of the road. Passing lanes won’t fix it because they are already there and are usually the source of these dangerous incidents.

So then do a better job of training drivers and enforce rules more strictly? The 401 is like forty lanes wide - it doesn't mean all drivers know the rules of the road. Expanding highways because drivers don't know how to drive seems like bad policy to me.

[Taeolas]

People aren't clamoring for 40 lane highways or even 3 lane highways.

But I suspect for many people, the minimal "safe" standard for proper highways have become controlled access divided 2 lane highways. Especially when other concerns like weather are brought into consideration. I haven't driven to SJ often, but I have driven back to Freddy during a winter snowstorm, and the difference between driving on separated highways and combined highways is huge; on divided highways you generally don't have to worry about oncoming traffic and that's a major stress factor you don't have to think of.

And until we get self driving cars, "Train better drivers" isn't a solution. It's like saying to solve our health problems we need everyone to have better diets. We know that's true, but it isn't a reasonable goal.

Anyways, I've long said that twinning SJ to Freddy is overdue for safety reasons and just to properly complete our southern highway network.

Twinning up to Bathurst is a secondary major goal to be working towards IMO, mainly for safety reasons and to better connect the north.

At that point, the only missing links would be a northern highway between Bathurst and Edmundston (or St Leonard), and/or twinning Route 8 for Freddy to Miramichi, and even I'm not saying those are needed. Not until we're well over 1M pop in any case.

[Dengler Avenue]

A divided freeway between Edmundston and Campbellton/Matapédia is an interesting one. I’ll be curious whether the completion of A85 in Québec will change the ways that people go to Gaspésie. (@Acajack says no though.)

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

People aren't clamoring for 40 lane highways or even 3 lane highways.

But I suspect for many people, the minimal "safe" standard for proper highways have become controlled access divided 2 lane highways. Especially when other concerns like weather are brought into consideration. I haven't driven to SJ often, but I have driven back to Freddy during a winter snowstorm, and the difference between driving on separated highways and combined highways is huge; on divided highways you generally don't have to worry about oncoming traffic and that's a major stress factor you don't have to think of.

And until we get self driving cars, "Train better drivers" isn't a solution. It's like saying to solve our health problems we need everyone to have better diets. We know that's true, but it isn't a reasonable goal.

Anyways, I've long said that twinning SJ to Freddy is overdue for safety reasons and just to properly complete our southern highway network.

Twinning up to Bathurst is a secondary major goal to be working towards IMO, mainly for safety reasons and to better connect the north.

At that point, the only missing links would be a northern highway between Bathurst and Edmundston (or St Leonard), and/or twinning Route 8 for Freddy to Miramichi, and even I'm not saying those are needed. Not until we're well over 1M pop in any case.

In parts of Highway 7 it feels a lot more like a backroad especially around the King/Queens county border. Not something you’d think is connecting the 2nd and 3rd largest cities in the province.

[adamuptownsj]

There's a gigantic difference between converting a two lane road to a controlled access four lane separated freeway, and adding a 13th and 14th lane to some godforsaken interstate nightmare. If you think it's reasonable to explore twinning 11 to Richibucto, I don't know why 18km or less of 7 is beyond the pale. The second and third largest cities having to traverse a moose-riddled two lane road through a military base is annoying enough, at least the outer limits of the SJ commuter area should have freeway access.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Oh yea, I’m curious:
Why were the 4 lanes of N.B.-7 around Welshford built with a median barrier instead of a wide median? It’s just seemed odd to me. Was the earth/rock fill too significant for a wide median to make economical sense?

Topography. Follows a super steep slope. Would have been much more expensive for fill.

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

There's a gigantic difference between converting a two lane road to a controlled access four lane separated freeway, and adding a 13th and 14th lane to some godforsaken interstate nightmare. If you think it's reasonable to explore twinning 11 to Richibucto, I don't know why 18km or less of 7 is beyond the pale. The second and third largest cities having to traverse a moose-riddled two lane road through a military base is annoying enough, at least the outer limits of the SJ commuter area should have freeway access.

Another point is the wind factor. The highway is a wind tunnel between Saint John to at least exit 80. On windy days the wind will push your vehicle over the lines. I have seen many 18 wheelers purposely drive on the shoulder on the highway to try and avoid being swayed into oncoming traffic.

[josh_cat_eyes]

I think before anything gets twinned anywhere else in the province, route 15 from Shediac to exit 46 in Robichaud needs to be twinned. It’s always backed up, especially during the summer with cars going to PEI.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by josh_cat_eyes

I think before anything gets twinned anywhere else in the province, route 15 from Shediac to exit 46 in Robichaud needs to be twinned. It’s always backed up, especially during the summer with cars going to PEI.

Lol I agree. I was driving from Charlottetown to Moncton and we were going below the speed limit upon entering the commuting shed of Moncton.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Topography. Follows a super steep slope. Would have been much more expensive for fill.

On that note, are slopes on N.B. freeways capped at 5%, or does the province simply not have the habit of signing steep slopes (I.e. 6% or steeper)?
I was going through the design specification but I couldn’t find the information among the 795 pages of it. (It’s there that MTO is mentioned by the way.)

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

If you think it's reasonable to explore twinning 11 to Richibucto, I don't know why 18km or less of 7 is beyond the pale.

Because traffic counts likely warrant it to Richibucto and generally don't on Route 7.

I agree that Route 7 could receive better upgrades as a super-2 but I tire of people resorting to the goal of everything should be twinned just because. This line of thinking is not exclusive to NB but twinning something isn't a solution to all problems.

Originally Posted by Taeolas

People aren't clamoring for 40 lane highways or even 3 lane highways.

Despite already having too many overbuilt highways it sounds like the people still want more.

Originally Posted by Taeolas

And until we get self driving cars, "Train better drivers" isn't a solution. It's like saying to solve our health problems we need everyone to have better diets. We know that's true, but it isn't a reasonable goal.

Self-driving cars won't be solving any of the inherent driving issues that plague us today. Merely replacing one problem for another whilst continuing to prop up the problems of a car-oriented lifestyle.

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Twinning up to Bathurst is a secondary major goal to be working towards IMO, mainly for safety reasons and to better connect the north.

At that point, the only missing links would be a northern highway between Bathurst and Edmundston (or St Leonard), and/or twinning Route 8 for Freddy to Miramichi, and even I'm not saying those are needed. Not until we're well over 1M pop in any case.

I think there should be more to transportation policy issues aside from being happy that a network is connected on a map. Twinning things for the sake of twinning them to be pleased with ourselves is not good policy. Our focus should be on better intercity transit, better urban public transit, and rail.

All of this is moot anyway because transportation policy provincially is dictated by Irving. That's ultimately why Route 1 is the way it is and why Route 7 is the way it is.

[Mattyyy]

Why is it that whenever people discuss twinning highway 11 to Miramichi or North there is a group (likely from Saint John ) the discussion automatically goes to "Route 7 deserves it because it links NB's 2nd and 3rd largest cities"). The answer to why it doesn't make sense is simple - traffic counts. Route 7 does not meet the criteria. And they may be NB's 2nd and 3rd largest, but remember they are biggest in a very small sea - 105,000 and 125,000?? I am not trying to offend by this, simply stating facts, but it is very tiresome to keep hearing the same argument over highway 7.

Route 11 to Richibucto does meet the criteria and should be twinned. The communities in these areas are also growing and feeding the Moncton area. The original plan outside of Miramichi was to twin 10km (where traffic counts did meet criteria) and realign the highway coming into the university avenue overpass. The reason for this was safety as there is a lot of traffic turning onto and off the highway into local businesses. The goal was to build a controlled-access highway.

[stephan.richard]

For me my personal opinion when it comes to twinning a highway and one thing that I would specify is if I were Higgs this would be my proposition.
- Lower the gas tax.
- implement tolls on 2-5cents per kilometre on all twinned highways in the province for non residents.
- implement tolls on 1-2 cents per kilometre on all twinned highways in the province for residents.
- Use the Ezpass transponder as collection method and that would tie in with the EZpass network in the United States.
- form a quasi independent authority that will manage all the funds collected by the tolls to go back into the highway infrastructure and administration. These funds will NOT go into the general revenues of the province.
- The money’s collected by the gas tax will be re-invested into doing much necessary upgrades to the secondary road network.

For those people who hate the idea of tolling should take time to drive on some of the tolled highways in the US to see how nice they are built and maintained. Like I said if we use ezpass we can tie into the US system and make it seamless travel.

[adamuptownsj]

Tolls are awesome. They should put tolls back on Harbour Bridge.

And to address the poster above, no one on here is demanding a fully twinned 7. People are specifically discussing the stretch from Crane Mountain to the Nerepis. 'Counts' aside, the province twinned Route 1 to the border (and Route 95 from the TCH to I-95) for business and safety reasons. Transport trucks leaving Saint John have a slog through the woods on a poorly maintained two lane road if they want to get to the Trans Canada. Anyway, I didn't say twinning to Richibucto was a bad idea, just a longer and dramatically more expensive one.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

There's a gigantic difference between converting a two lane road to a controlled access four lane separated freeway, and adding a 13th and 14th lane to some godforsaken interstate nightmare. If you think it's reasonable to explore twinning 11 to Richibucto, I don't know why 18km or less of 7 is beyond the pale. The second and third largest cities having to traverse a moose-riddled two lane road through a military base is annoying enough, at least the outer limits of the SJ commuter area should have freeway access.

I'd rather we invest in more moose fencing than adding lanes.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Tolls are awesome. They should put tolls back on Harbour Bridge.

They really shouldn't.

[Taeolas]

I'd have no problem tolling the highways to help offset costs. Probably the trickiest issue with that is that we have 2 companies maintaining the TCH in the province, so divvying up the tolls to them would probably be a constant bone of contention.

And politically, I suspect it would be easier to introduce it as a Visitor/Commercial toll and leave resident (NB vehicles) untolled. Then you would only need 4 toll stations (Edmundston on the TCH, Woodstock on I-95, St Stephen on Route 1 and Aulac at the TCH). Maybe a flat rate for travelers, with a discounted rate for frequent visitors (ie people who regularly criss cross the border but live outside the province)

Eventually a toll for residents would need to be brought in, if anything to offset the loss of gas tax profits as we shift to EV, but it'll be easier to expand and tear the bandaid off if the infrastructure's already in place for visitors in the first place.

As far as Twinning goes, I've made my own opinion clear many times (and I am one of the ones calling for a full SJ to Freddy twinning; but twinning basically from the base/Grand-Bay to SJ feels long over due). Traffic counts are not the be all and end all when it comes to twinning. Safety concerns, weather concerns, commercial concerns, wildlife control concerns should all be considered as well.


And looking at the maps now, I'm just going to throw out another completely unfeasible wild idea.

Instead of twinning Route 7 through the base, twin (or parallel) route 101 up to around Beaver Dam, and then scoot it over to link to the TCH around the big bend it does at Long's Creek. It would give Transport traffic a more direct route to the TCH and the rest of Canada, it gives those villages/community a bit of a life line and I'm sure the Base would love getting most of the traffic out of its boundaries. (Route 7 itself could then be shifted over to an upgraded Branch Road, and the highway through that part of the base could officially be closed off and left for Base-use only)

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by JHikka

They really shouldn't.

Why not? I grew up west, moved uptown 3-4 years after the tolls were removed, and the bridge wasn't a minefield of pot holes back then.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Why not? I grew up west, moved uptown 3-4 years after the tolls were removed, and the bridge wasn't a minefield of pot holes back then.

From what I recall when the tolls were originally removed, the revenue from the tolls hardly covered tollbooth operations, to say nothing of the traffic implications and poor design of the tolling station in general.

Given that the toll could be easily avoided by locals it just seems like a fruitless exercise. I think there's some merit in plopping down tolls at the border crossings with QC/NS/ME but aside from that I think anything else would merely penalize locals without providing any real economic benefit or revenue.

[MonctonRad]

NS already imposes tolls on out of province folk at Cobequid Pass.

This would be (Cobe)quid pro quo (so to speak).