Circuit of the Americas Formula 1 Race Track

[hookem]

Originally Posted by electricron

The purse for just the F1 race at COTA is $25 Million.

Not a purse, that's something different. There are not individual purses for each F1 race. It's a total payout at the end of the season for the constructors and drivers championships.

That yearly $25 Million sanctioning fee going to F1 leaves Austin and the USA with most of the teams and their suppliers based in Europe. Call it a wash - just as much money comes in as goes out.

You are changing the argument. I was pointing out that the tax benefit to the city is significantly higher with COTA vs. a subdivision. It is not anywhere close to a wash, for the city at least. You can argue that the $25M state subsidy doesn't cover or isn't worth the incremental tax revenue from F1 overall, but that $25M is not something the city would ever see. It's all coming from the state part (6.25%) of the sales tax and various other taxes that could never be income to the city anyway. Now, the METF requires that the city contribute part of the METF subsidy (presumably from their incremental benefit), but in the case of F1 -- COTA has covered that part so the city doesn't pay the typical share. I think the part that is supposed to come from the city is about $4M. But they don't pay it, so it's not wash for the city, because they pay no part of the subsidy.

Also, after researching a little more, it seems that the annexation date was effective in December, after the F1 race. http://www.austintexas.gov/page/aust...address-ranges . This is pretty standard for Austin, and it is because of the property tax. Since the property has to be part of Austin on Jan 1 to collect property taxes for that year, they make annexations effective in December so that they only have to provide services for a minimum amount of time prior to the property being on the tax roll.

Anyway, that would seem to indicate that the $175K number did not include any sales at the COTA property. They touch on that in the F1 report, stating on page 16:

Upon annexation, the City of Austin will also impose a 0.5%
sales tax rate upon sales made at the COTA facility. For any City annexed areas that encompass the Library District, the following local sales tax rates will apply: Capital Metro (1.0%), City of Austin (0.5%), and the Library District (0.5%).

That is probably why they next show the East Travis County Library district sales tax comparison, which presumably would have been applied to the 2012 F1 event. On that tax, the incremental increase was $398,773. (also page 16). That would seem to confirm that Austin did not receive sales tax revenue from the COTA site during the race last year, and that when it does that will double (at least) their incremental revenue from F1.

Interesting stuff.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by hookem

I think it might be more, actually. If the track ends up being valued at $300M, that's significantly more than the subdivision of 1200 cheap houses (1200 x $130K = $156 Million). Plus the homes would likely have a large percentage of homestead exemptions. The track has some land with ag exemptions, though... so I'm not sure what the net property tax gain is. But I suspect a lot more than the homes.

So the county is getting more money than they would have otherwise (they're still getting their cut of that 300M). Again, I'm not seeing how the county is getting screwed.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by hookem

Not a purse, that's something different.
I was pointing out that the tax benefit to the city is significantly higher with COTA vs. a subdivision. You can argue that the $25M state subsidy doesn't cover or isn't worth the incremental tax revenue from F1 overall, but that $25M is not something the city would ever see.
Also, after researching a little more, it seems that the annexation date was effective in December, after the F1 race.

I am aware COTA doesn't pay F1 a typical race purse, that's why I used purse in one paragraph, and sanctioning fee in another. The track's large sanctioning fee would be the equivalent of the purse of other racing series.
I'm not the one confusing others because I didn't bring up the ugly word subsidy, which I believe the state didn't do. I suppose the annexation date of December might help explain why the sales tax increase was so low. Who's fault is it that the city didn't annex the track's property sooner?

As for the delay with the city getting sales tax returns from the state, why do you think it has taken the city until the second quarter this year to make the report? Could one reason be waiting for those returns?

I'm not arguing the track didn't turn a profit, nor that the city didn't eventually do well. I'm arguing the city didn't do as well as you suggest, whether I misread you or not - the track or city -, by "tens of millions of dollars". Whether it as low as my estimation of less than three million dollars, or as high as 9 million dollars, the city's take wasn't in the "tens of millions".

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Novacek

So the county is getting more money than they would have otherwise (they're still getting their cut of that 300M). Again, I'm not seeing how the county is getting screwed.

County property taxes aren't as high as you think. Just to name a few.....
Travis County ESD rate is 0.1 cent per $100.
City of Austin's rate is 0.5 cent per $100.
Austin ISD rate is 1.24 cent per $100.

The school district's tax is 12 times the county's, the city's tax is 5 times the county's. The county gets zero sales tax returns. There's a reason why county roads are paved in pea-gravel vs asphalt.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by electricron

County property taxes aren't as high as you think. Just to name a few.....
Travis County ESD rate is 0.1 cent per $100.
City of Austin's rate is 0.5 cent per $100.
Austin ISD rate is 1.24 cent per $100.

The school district's tax is 12 times the county's, the city's tax is 5 times the county's. The county gets zero sales tax returns. There's a reason why county roads are paved in pea-gravel vs asphalt.

The Travis County _ESD_ is .1. The _Travis County_ rate is .5. Basically the same as the city (exemptions may be different?).

[turn1]

Originally Posted by Novacek

So the county is getting more money than they would have otherwise (they're still getting their cut of that 300M). Again, I'm not seeing how the county is getting screwed.

It's because the county has had to increase service levels provided by both ESD 11 (fire), TCSO, and ATC-EMS/StarFlight - which the county supports in conjunction with the city. From what I can tell ESD 11 alone may have had to spend more than any revenue increase the county has seen (when they had to buy a new quint aerial truck just to provide proper response capability to the pit building, not to mention increased staffing during events when, because of traffic congestion, ESD 11 has to man extra units at remote sites to ensure proper coverage of its service area).

EMS provides on-site emergency medical standbys for every hot-track event, from manufacturer promotional events to track days to races. They pay overtime personnel to run ~5 reserve units, sitting on-site at COTA, in addition to normal daily staffing for the entire county. StarFlight also pays for a flight crew and helo on-site, and any flights they make, including just to get out there and back. Not cheap stuff, and none of it's being paid by COTA. All of this staffing has been present at every race, track days, and even at COTA's Cadillac and Ferrari promotional events.

And of course there's TCSO traffic control at every event, which is manned by overtime officers.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by turn1

EMS provides on-site emergency medical standbys for every hot-track event, from manufacturer promotional events to track days to races. They pay overtime personnel to run ~5 reserve units, sitting on-site at COTA, in addition to normal daily staffing for the entire county. StarFlight also pays for a flight crew and helo on-site, and any flights they make, including just to get out there and back. Not cheap stuff, and none of it's being paid by COTA.

That's absolutely not true.

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/l...nforc-1/nRpGN/

Originally Posted by turn1

And of course there's TCSO traffic control at every event, which is manned by overtime officers.

And again, that's paid for by the circuit (see article above).

[turn1]

Originally Posted by Novacek

That's absolutely not true.

That absolutely is true.

There was a bidding process for the EMS coverage open to many EMS entities. ATC-EMS (stupidly, I know, and irresponsibly, imho) said they'd eat the cost in exchange for the wide "exposure" of working these events would bring to the organization. In other words, they entered a bid of $0, when they probably could have easily secured the contract just by bidding on the low end. What good that exposure will do for them, esp at that cost, I have no idea. The article was written while that bid process was taking place, so at the time it was accurate. My info is straight from ATC-EMS. Believe what you want.

ETA: Even if the $51K figure in the article is true, and for these purposes let's assume it is, that is but a mere fraction of the cost of they are spending to provide coverage out there. Overtime for 70 Paramedics for the F1 weekend alone is around $100K, and they're providing staffing for hot-track events throughout the year.

The $77K paid to ESD 11 is a drop in the bucket compared to what they were forced to spend to serve the structures at COTA not present in the rest of the ESD. COTA doesn;t disappear when there's no racing, and even though COTA is now in the city, ESD 11 is still the first response agency for everything there except Fire Alarm Activation calls, for which AFD is first.

[hookem]

Originally Posted by electricron

I'm not the one confusing others because I didn't bring up the ugly word subsidy, which I believe the state didn't do.

I don't think others are confused.

I'm not arguing the track didn't turn a profit, nor that the city didn't eventually do well. I'm arguing the city didn't do as well as you suggest, whether I misread you or not - the track or city -, by "tens of millions of dollars". Whether it as low as my estimation of less than three million dollars, or as high as 9 million dollars, the city's take wasn't in the "tens of millions".

Ok, well fair enough, perhaps just a misunderstanding, but I never characterized how "well" the city came out. I was just pointing out the difference and higher value to the city that the track is vs a subdivision (which was planned before). I touched on the property tax difference, but characterized as the more significant difference the sales tax on tens of millions in sales. Meaning the huge amount of retail sales at the track, which a subdivision would not have.

That's really it.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by turn1

That absolutely is true.


ETA: Even if the $51K figure in the article is true, and for these purposes let's assume it is, that is but a mere fraction of the cost of ATCEMS & StarFlight are spending to provide coverage out there.

I think you're confused. It's 51K to ATCEMS, then an additional $375 /hour to Starflight.


You claimed "none of it's being paid by COTA", while by my count they paid out over $300K in just a single race weekend. You're wrong, just admit it.

[turn1]

Originally Posted by electricron

I'm not the one confusing others because I didn't bring up the ugly word subsidy, which I believe the state didn't do.

Paying the track's sanctioning fees for its racing content is a subsidy. If those huge fees don't get paid, there is no racing and no crowds.

[turn1]

Originally Posted by Novacek

I think you're confused. It's 51K to ATCEMS, then an additional $375 /hour to Starflight.


You claimed "none of it's being paid by COTA", while by my count they paid out over $300K in just a single race weekend. You're wrong, just admit it.

Admit I'm wrong? Like you did over the 140K figure? LOL.

Anyway, I'm not confused. I acquiesced & am going by the numbers in your article. I was addressing ATCEMS only. StarFlight's fees cover their expenses, not ATCEMS's. I edited out StarFlight right after I posted that. If ATCEMS is getting $51K annually from COTA, which is what the article states, then just their O/T for the F1 weekend alone puts them in the hole for the year. There are a lot of other expenses, and they provide special on-site service out there throughout the year. At issue is not whether COTA pays anything, but whether the county is incurring large expenses, which it most definitely is.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by turn1

Admit I'm wrong? Like you did over the 140K figure? LOL.

I believe you're thinking of Jdawgboy, not me.

[Jdawgboy]

Originally Posted by turn1

One of dozens of articles referring to 140K...9/18/10: http://www.examiner.com/article/us-f...texas-revealed




From this very thread, 9/13/10: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...&postcount=112


It was also talked about a lot in other forum threads over the 3 years, and the 140K figure was still being tossed around in news articles a month before the race.

10/22/12: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20121022/f1/121029971/




While nothing has changed out at the track, apparently Geoff Moore has even predicted 140K for this year's USGP: http://w11.zetaboards.com/Motorsport...8722&t=8590204

While I actually did go back to search and noticed that they were saying 140K way back, I wouldn't say it was right before F1 because they had decided to cap at 120K due to concern over traffic issues. I can link some KXAN news reports over 8 months before that were quoting 120K

[turn1]

Originally Posted by Novacek

I believe you're thinking of Jdawgboy, not me.

Yep. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Jdawgboy

While I actually did go back to search and noticed that they were saying 140K way back....

So you researched & saw that, then wrote this?

From the very beginning, I heard on the news and reading articles the 120K number not 140K. Not sure where your getting that number but I've always heard them say a racetrack that would bring up to 120K.

[TBurton]

I work with V8 Supercars here in the US, and I'm enjoying your discussion...but I'm just going to keep my mouth shut beyond the following: we are so excited for the Austin 400 and look forward to seeing some of you there! I hope you enjoy the weekend and we look forward to reading your thoughts post-race.

[turn1]

Originally Posted by TBurton

I work with V8 Supercars here in the US, and I'm enjoying your discussion...but I'm just going to keep my mouth shut beyond the following: we are so excited for the Austin 400 and look forward to seeing some of you there! I hope you enjoy the weekend and we look forward to reading your thoughts post-race.

Are you in town yet? If so, then welcome to Austin! Can't wait for this weekend. Maybe we'll see you out at the track.

BTW, I'm sure I've seen you post on another forum recently. Can't remember which though.

[turn1]

Just got some pics of V8 Supercars & their gear arriving in the COTA paddock. Enjoy:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...7614878&type=1

[hookem]

Cool pics. I thought the GM cars were supposed to be branded as Chevys here...? Maybe it's an "at-track" modification.

[turn1]

COTA offering $49 single-day tickets, then discounting them even further ($30) on Groupon. Wow.