The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[J.OT13]

Looks like a good system with some decent coverage, but 24 years? How many km total?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by scryer

Just thought that I would share what was happening over in Winnipeg. 24 years seems pretty brutal to me for 3 lines of a BRT system .

For some context, this is the system that they would be constructing:

This sounds like something that could be sped up with federal and provincial funding. No reasons something like this couldn't be fully built in a decade.

[J.OT13]

O-Train Fans updated map. As per the last version, this one features track geometry, switches, platform configurations and future platform extensions. Added to the map are the new (since summer 2020) Line colours and identification of Line(s) served for each station.

Stage 2 O-Train system map (2025). 64.5 km. 41 stations.



Stage 3 O-Train system map (shovel ready, waiting on funding). 85 km. 56 stations.



Visit O-Train Fans to zoom in for details.

https://otrain.railfans.ca/system-map

Gatineau Tram expected to be added when details come out, hopefully this summer.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This sounds like something that could be sped up with federal and provincial funding. No reasons something like this couldn't be fully built in a decade.

Tough to do when you have a provincial government that rejects federal assistance out of spite.

The timeline is absurd. The City has basically given up on providing a proper RT network for anyone who is currently an adult. I guess there's some hope for my future grandchildren.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by esquire

Tough to do when you have a provincial government that rejects federal assistance out of spite.

The timeline is absurd. The City has basically given up on providing a proper RT network for anyone who is currently an adult. I guess there's some hope for my future grandchildren.

If this is a plan that city is building around self-funding, the feds could just bypass the province and go direct. $1.1B is manageable for the city, even if the feds pay just a third.

I'm curious that the provincial government doesn't feel the heat over attacking a city that is 60% of province's population. The Ford Tories have done lots of things attacking the municipal government in Toronto. But they didn't cut transit funding or scale back investment. And the 416 is a much smaller proportion of Ontario's population.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Tough to do when you have a provincial government that rejects federal assistance out of spite.

The timeline is absurd. The City has basically given up on providing a proper RT network for anyone who is currently an adult. I guess there's some hope for my future grandchildren.

Just give you an idea I think Ottawa built about 30 km of Transitway in around a decade, and then doubled that in the decade following.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

O-Train Fans updated map. As per the last version, this one features track geometry, switches, platform configurations and future platform extensions. Added to the map are the new (since summer 2020) Line colours and identification of Line(s) served for each station.

Stage 2 O-Train system map (2025). 64.5 km. 41 stations.



Stage 3 O-Train system map (shovel ready, waiting on funding). 85 km. 56 stations.



Visit O-Train Fans to zoom in for details.

https://otrain.railfans.ca/system-map

Gatineau Tram expected to be added when details come out, hopefully this summer.

When this is fully built out will it replace all of the existing Transitway lines?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

When this is fully built out will it replace all of the existing Transitway lines?

No.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Just give you an idea I think Ottawa built about 30 km of Transitway in around a decade, and then doubled that in the decade following.

I wonder how much of it was self-funded by Ottawa-Carleton regional municipality. And could Winnipeg follow the same template if no provincial and/or federal funding in coming.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I wonder how much of it was self-funded by Ottawa-Carleton regional municipality. And could Winnipeg follow the same template if no provincial and/or federal funding in coming.

I seem to recall most of the money came from Ontario, with some from Ottawa-Carleton and very little if any from the feds.

This seems to back this up:
https://www.lightrailnow.org/myths/m_otw001.htm

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

When this is fully built out will it replace all of the existing Transitway lines?

It will replace most of the Transitways and bridge some long standing gaps of the original Transitway network.

Here's the 2018 Transportation Master Plan (TMP) showing the "ultimate" rail network and Transitways. The diagonal Transitway in the middle between Confederation and Trillium has been there since the early 90s. The rest is nearly all future plans.

The at-grade light rail line in the middle on Carling has been in the TMP since 2008, but never studied or discussed in detail.

Only difference with the current plans is that the Kanata rail extension has been extended to include two extra stations to Hazeldean (so the two station thick blue line below Palladium).


https://manifestomultilinko2.wordpress.com/2018/11/13/ottawa-lrt-stage-3-maps/

To view larger image: https://www.flickr.com/photos/rakerman/44049258150/in/dateposted-public/

[nname]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Those 80 meter platforms can achieve 25,000 phpd. The initial capacity will be set at 7,100 phpd based on this 2018 DailyHive article, so plenty of room for growth.

The stations are being built with space for future entrances when needed.

I believe they'll be 82.5m, which allows for 5-cars train and 30,000-32,500 pphpd ultimate capacity. Although I doubt they would ever need that much capacity.

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Expo and Millennium are not designed to be expanded.

Some of the stations are designed to be expanded to 100m (6-cars train) when they were first constructed, with a few already at that length. Although most likely they'll stick with 82.5m (5-cars) as the ultimate train length now. A few of the stations on the Expo Line are already expanded to 82.5m during renovations in the past few years.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

It will replace most of the Transitways and bridge some long standing gaps of the original Transitway network.

Here's the 2018 Transportation Master Plan (TMP) showing the "ultimate" rail network and Transitways. The diagonal Transitway in the middle between Confederation and Trillium has been there since the early 90s. The rest is nearly all future plans.

The at-grade light rail line in the middle on Carling has been in the TMP since 2008, but never studied or discussed in detail.

Only difference with the current plans is that the Kanata rail extension has been extended to include two extra stations to Hazeldean (so the two station thick blue line below Palladium).


https://manifestomultilinko2.wordpress.com/2018/11/13/ottawa-lrt-stage-3-maps/

To view larger image: https://www.flickr.com/photos/rakerman/44049258150/in/dateposted-public/

It sounds like the city doesn't want to build virgin lines. They seem to want to test the waters with the Transitways before an LRT is built. It is an interesting way to build out the network.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It sounds like the city doesn't want to build virgin lines. They seem to want to test the waters with the Transitways before an LRT is built. It is an interesting way to build out the network.

That's a fair assessment. The City (or politicians) also want to serve the vote rich suburbs.

Even the Baseline Transitway has been placed on the wayside. The Mayor and others would borderline reject funding for it if it meant delaying Stage 3. And too be fair, the same can be said for the Kanata North and Cumberland Transitways for the most part.

Carling will be getting bus lanes soon, as part of the detour plan for Stage 2 (while the Scott Street transit trench is closed for conversion) and that should suffice for a long time. Meanwhile, there are no plans to resolve chronically unreliable transit on Elgin, Bank and Montreal. In fact, the current rebuild of Montreal Road includes the removal of a lane (from 4 to 3) so transit will likely be even less reliable after.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It sounds like the city doesn't want to build virgin lines. They seem to want to test the waters with the Transitways before an LRT is built. It is an interesting way to build out the network.

I don't think it was necessarily that intentional. It just worked out that way. Building the BRT network effectively created a set of exclusive, segregated and mostly grade separated corridors that could be repurposed for relatively lower cost. Ottawa's "LRT" is after all a fully grade separated light metro with theoretical capacity on par with metro systems elsewhere.

Going forward, it's not likely that more BRT will be built to the Transitway standards of the past. New BRT only has to have enough capacity to feed the rail network. Anything more is overkill. So bus lanes on major avenues will mostly be enough.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Meanwhile, there are no plans to resolve chronically unreliable transit on Elgin, Bank and Montreal. In fact, the current rebuild of Montreal Road includes the removal of a lane (from 4 to 3) so transit will likely be even less reliable after.

Transit expansion in Canada:

"Should we replace this bus that runs through urban neighbourhoods with tons of new condos coming online that has 50,000 daily riders and is strained beyond capacity?.....Or should we just chase some rail lines to the outer suburbs?"

"Outer suburbs."

[Truenorth00]

It's not an entirely fair portrayal
Yes, Ottawa does suck with urban transit. No, Ottawa doesn't need a subway under every major avenue in the downtown core.

Imagine building a subway under Lawrence or Ellesmere/York Mills in Toronto. This is the level of development and density for most of Bank, Elgin and Montreal Rd. But thanks to the idea that no roadspace should be reserved for transit, they've convinced themselves that the only solution is expensive grade separation.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

"Outer suburbs."

TransLink is planning to run the SkyTrain to Broadway/Arbutus and Fleetwood (Surrey) right now, and then the "future future" plans are UBC and Langley Centre.

UBC is a major commuter destination about 12 km from downtown. Langley has 25,000 people and is about 45 km from downtown. Some of the proposed alignment is farm fields and I am not sure it can ever be developed due to the ALR. The public discussion about this at one point revolved around "should the new multi-billion dollar extension to the small town be SkyTrain or 'light rail'?".

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

But thanks to the idea that no roadspace should be reserved for transit, they've convinced themselves that the only solution is expensive grade separation.

The toolkit of transit infrastructure development in most Canadian cities seems to be missing mid-range options. Options like streetcars or gondolas or short sections of bus tunnel that avoid bottlenecks.

I hope at least that electric buses will become the norm in a few years so the diesel buses will be gone.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by someone123

The toolkit of transit infrastructure development in most Canadian cities seems to be missing mid-range options. Options like streetcars or gondolas or short sections of bus tunnel that avoid bottlenecks.

I hope at least that electric buses will become the norm in a few years so the diesel buses will be gone.

It's true, but I think it's somewhat understandable.

No modern city would build streetcars the way they exist in their most low tech form in Toronto or Melbourne - the platforms are very narrow, kinda sketch and probably not built to some standards. And you have those super tight corners. When a modern city builds a streetcar, it's always closer to LRT than those old streetcars, with cost to match. So the question is; why spend the expense of LRT when you end up with something little better than a bus? You could just put in bus lanes and get 90% of the benefit (plus greater reliability).

The counter to that is it is politically easier to give a dedicated ROW to a train than a bus. And hence a streetcar/LRT is inherently better because the ability to cheap out and skip dedicated ROWs is lessened.